No.This is one of the more enduring and farcical JFK theories. Researchers have checked out the sewers of Dealey Plaza and determined that a gunman would not have been able to fire over the windshield of the approaching presidential limousine. As far I can tell no living serious JFK researcher believes in this hoax.
The gunman in the sewer is like the “Secret Service man did it” and “George H.W. Bush did it” and “the Federal Reserve did it.” It’s fiction.
About the comments that J.F.Ks assassin could not have shot overJ.F.K.s windshield or window .My expertise research shows that two people cleaned up the glass from the limos windshield.This means the shooter shot thru the windshield not over it. And as Walter Cronkite would say THATS THE WAY IT WAS on NOV, 22,1963. Anybody that says any different is spreading fake news. The law enforcement probably changed the facts .And that shows the enforcement probably knew. the shot come from the sewerhole all along and covered that up.
s
There is no one that would believe a mans head would go backward when shot from behind. Please explaine the testimony of Ford Motor employees in Michigan who replaced the Lincoln limousine front windshield where a single bullit hole was found and explaining how 16 physicians at Parkland Hospital testified that the back of President Kennedys head was blown away and also the testimony of a young lady who saw the bullit hole herself when vehicle was parked by the Hospital. I also never felt Oswald could make thòse shouts in the time allotted yet alone be so accurate with that archaic rifle. And then he is silenced forever. What troubles me more is how the Warren Commision ignored so much information and leaving only the CIA and Lyndon Johnson to mop up everything. There are far too many questions to ever accept the Warren Commision conclusion and far too many witness testimonies dismissed. Plus why was the President’s escort bodyguards reduced? Testimony from the Ford employees should immediately reopen this investigation as to WHY? President Kennedy deserves better!
It’s not a matter of “if” but when a proper forensic autopsy will be performed on JFK’s body, something not done and required by law, that can now be done by MRI and x-ray without body mutilation or even probing the body. The Bethesda autopsy was merely to determine the cause of death, a forensic autopsy will create evidence that can be entered into a court of law. Such a forensic autopsy using latest equipment could determine the full path of the back entrance wound, confirm or refute the single bullet theory and determine the direction of the head shot. A forensic autopsy can be ordered by a pathologist with legal authority or a court, or requested by the family.
What I am raising here is the possibility that Imaging could take place ABOVE GROUND that does not require disinterment- This would be a non invasive process to which dissent would be unlikely- As the skill set of the folks who post here often astounds, I am seeking an expert opinion- And if this is a dead end, why isn’t there then an immense groundswell of interest in promoting a Pathologist with the proper authority to conduct a forensic autopsy immediately? Above and beyond cancelling all further debate and definitively settling the matter of a conspiracy to kill JFK and to aggressively hide the truth, the course of our Nation on the world Stage might be reversed and the United States might become a force for positive change and end the demonic tide of xenophobia and abject ignorance championed by the wealthy Orangutan from NYC that plays so well in 2016-
impossible… the brain was lost and hasn’t been seen in years.
If we assume that an exhumation of JFK or Connelly is impossible, with the amazing capability of imaging technology, is there a potential to scan their resting places and gather data? Any evidence about bullets,bullet fragments and their corresponding locations would be profoundly impactful- The potential to have a any tangible data about the Presidents skull would instantaneously resolve the tremendous gap between the wounds seen by dozens of professionals at Parkland and their less adept and astoundingly incurious counterparts at Bethesda- Unassailable confirmation of the first responders recollections about the head wounds would displace 54 years of conflicting debate and deeply taint all aspects of the “official” findings. Is it true that the construction of the Arlington grave site would unintentionally prevent such an endeavor? And who would have final say in the matter; The Military or the family? This would be a great project to undertake if it held any potential- It would be intriguing to see who would resist it- I would think the Kennedy family would like to see a correction of the assassination narrative and recrimination against the forces that shattered their family and its mission-
Well, there was most probably a gun on and possibly in the Dal-Tex Building:
http://www.ctka.net/pr1195-hewett.html
Harold Jameson then worked there, and was stopped and questioned by the DPD immediately after the assassination — funny thing, he was stopped and questioned a block or two from the Ambassador Hotel on the night of the RFK assassination also, and he was related to Donald Jameson, head of the CIA’s Soviet Russia/Covert Affairs Desk.
Harold Jameson had an interesting FBI file [case no. 499 731] — if you can ever get your hands on it!
In spite of my respect for Penn Jones early work and courage I have never put much faith in the sewer shot.
Ronnie,
I think the physics and trajectory of the sewer shot are simply impossible.
\\][//
Not if, as Tom Wilson said, the limo was further down Elm Street when the head shot was fired.
‘The origination point of that bullet corresponds exactly to the location of the storm sewer drain at the base of the steps on the north side of Elm Street…The assassin who fired the fatal headshot was hiding in the storm drain.’ – retired US Steel Engineer Tom Wilson in Donald T. Phillips, A Deeper, Darker Truth, 2009.
A sewer/storm drain shot from Elm Street’s ‘kill zone’ would nicely explain the gunsmoke several witnesses claimed they smelled as the cars they were being transported in traversed the zone and moved away from the scene. It would also take suspicion away from those who feel the SS agents in JFK’s parade car (or the followup vehicle behind it) were the gunmen that murdered JFK.
Simply put, there’s no other way to get gunsmoke in Elm Street for select witnesses to smell it. The wind was blowing towards the grassy knoll fence, not away from it. JFK was too far away from the TSBD for a firecracker toss.
The prevalent winds in north Texas in the late fall and winter are from the north west. They are called Norther’s when extreme. I remember reading documentation of the weather years ago that day but can’t provide a link.
JFK experienced a light rain storm that morning in Fort Worth which cleared out by the time he got to Dallas.
IF this was a light norther and a light wind still followed it it would have flowed from the grassy knoll to the street.
@Ronnie
The late Gary Mack was supervising the wind re-enactment in the ‘Unsolved History’ episode ‘Inside The Target Car’. Gary has the fan more or less blowing directly at Jackie. Away from the grassy knoll fence.
Which of you is correct?
Ronnie Wayne
May 28, 2016 at 11:48 pm
“The prevalent winds in north Texas in the late fall and winter are from the north west. They are called Norther’s when extreme.”
Right Ronnie, a norther is extreme and a blue norther is very cold and extreme. Best I remember it was a nice day at Texas A&M that day. I don’t believe we were even wearing jackets that Friday but my memory is getting fuzzy these days. Dallas is about 180 miles from College Station so the weather in College could be entirely different in Dallas that day (such as rain). I remember that day like it was yesterday.
Yes, the wind was coming from the southwest.
Look at the rain coats worn by the ladies on the south side of Elm street.
Gerry: I suggest that we forget anything related to the wind direction. It is a moot point. The powder particles are subject to several forces:
• The propulsive force in the same direction as the barrel is one of them.
• As soon as they leave the muzzle, the particles EXPAND away in all directions.
This is studied in Chemistry labs. If you pour something denser than water in a container (let’s say it is blue) you can clearly see some sort on a slow motion “explosion”. The medium tends to become HOMOGENEOUS and particles repeal each other.
The flash can also be seen from behind.
Not sure what your point is Ramon.
All I’m saying is that the wind blew from the southwest to the northeast, generally-speaking. The rain coats waved in that direction like flags, giving us photographic confirmation.
(Incidentally, WC apologists have argued that the officer that rode on the left rear of JFK’s limo was splattered with blood and tissue as a result of the wind, but the wind was in the opposite direction as discussed above, meaning that the force of the splatter came from a right, frontal shot).
Surely, there is another force acting upon gun smoke (whether from ignited powder or gun oil), but I can’t see it coming all the way from the alleged sniper’s lair if that’s what you mean.
Gerry, I think Ramon’s point is that the expulsion from the gun barrel and the force of the resultant impact to JFK’s head overcame the light breeze, no matter from what direction it came.
Interesting if not a valid point you make about getting gun smoke along Elm for Senator Yarborough, who was riding in a follow-up car with LBJ and LadyBird, to smell it.
Tom Wilson In the book “A Deeper DarkerTruth” by Donald T Phillips, said that he had checked at Dealey Plaza, and in his considered opinion the head shot took place some 7’6″ further down the street than stated. This would make a shot from the sewer a more possible shot.
[Ray Mitcham:]
“the head shot took place some 7’6″ further down the street ”
====================
Ray: With all due respect, allow me to state this: such pretend accuracy is unwarranted.
Based on the fact that we only have the 2 dimensions of the Zapruder film (with the 3rd. estimated), plus its poor, grainy emulsion resolution (8mm is VERY small!) the results are bound to be expressed as follows:
“The gun must have been in coordinates x,y,z with a tolerance of 8% in the vertical dimension, 12% in the horizontal and 20% in the depth”
[I am making up those 3 numbers for didactic purposes]
Furthermore, variable factors such as the use of different calibers and the location/angle of penetration make those constant numbers fluctuate.
We have too many “experts” who have never set foot in a classroom where college physics is being taught.
It is not only the Postners, Bugliosis and Myers of the words, but I am afraid that Mrs. Sherry Gutiérrez Fiester also tends to fall in that category. She blindly takes the FBI numbers as if they were from the bible. She lacks the minimum required education. She has the nerve to detract a NASA physicist (Paul Chambers) who is her professional superior by any measure.
People with advanced degrees from the best universities are the only ones who can deliver the acceptable answers, and they can only come from INSTITUTIONS that have a long-standing reputation to uphold. Not unlike the Manhattan or Moon Trip projects, only la crème de la crème need to apply.
This is the kind of consensus that has been MIA since 1963:
http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
Their very puzzling absence can only be explained by a high-level conspiracy.
“Mrs. Sherry Gutiérrez Fiester also tends to fall in that category. She blindly takes the FBI numbers as if they were from the bible.”~Ramon F Herrera
A citation is necessary to back up this assertion Mr Herrera.
Do you have her book? Where did you get this idea?
\\][//
[Mr. Whitten:]
“A citation is necessary to back up this assertion, Mr. Herrera.”
=====================
Due to my science/engineering background, I LOVE it when people ask for references. I left the post “hanging” and waited a few days on purpose. Thanks for keeping me honest, Willy:
http://nightfrighshow.blogspot.com/2015/08/jfk-bullet-trajectories-with-sherry.html
http://www.jfklancer.com/catalog/
http://www.sherryfiester.com/about.html
Initially, I was a big supporter of the movie “A Coup in Camelot” (I am in touch with the producers and even asked in this forum to Jeff Morley, to see if he could use his contact with Oliver Stone and help the filmmakers) but when I delved into the quality of material in Fiester’s work, I began to realize (one of) the reason the film was not accepted in the US and was shown only in Europe.
I am truly dismayed/saddened that her work has been acknowledged and awarded as THE best that the community has produced, and her arrogance is beyond the pale. Just listen to the radio program above the patronizing way she refers to Paul Chambers!
“Due to my science/engineering background, I LOVE it when people ask for references. I left the post “hanging” and waited a few days on purpose. Thanks for keeping me honest, Willy:”
I asked for substantiation of these allegations:
“Mrs. Sherry Gutiérrez Fiester also tends to fall in that category. She blindly takes the FBI numbers as if they were from the bible.”
I find nothing in what you have offered to support your original assertion about Ms Fiester taking “FBI numbers as if they were from the bible.”
Perhaps you can be more specific in what you mean by that Mr. Herrera.
\\][//
“I find nothing in what you have offered to support your original assertion about Ms Fiester taking “FBI numbers as if they were from the bible.” Perhaps you can be more specific in what you mean by that Mr. Herrera.”
=================
Thanks for keeping me honest, Willy!
I had to go back and watch the relevant YouTube programs. Please watch them:
Sherry Fiester, short version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ESO8k9Zkxw
Sherry Fiester, long version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfew5fnE0H8
G. Paul Chambers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxIM_Hf9Cow
The work of Ms. Fiester is most appreciated (and awarded). She is passionate and an outstanding communicator. However, she is at the end of her capabilities. Like a relay race, it is the time for her to hand her results to people who are much, more knowledgeable. To show humility.
I will have detailed comments later.
Mr Herrera,
Night Fright is really a stupid program to cite for an interview with any researcher.
Alan Dale has an interview with her without all the circus atmosphere of the show you cite:
. . . . . . . .
Program Transcript: Sherry Fiester
JFK LANCER: CONVERSATIONS WITH ALAN DALE
Welcome to JFK Lancer Conversations, an on-line interview program featuring discussions with prominent authors, historical researchers and notable personalities associated with the study of President Kennedy’s assassination.
NAME: SHERRY P FIESTER (PRONOUNCED FEE-STER)
DATE: APRIL, 2013
DURATION: 00:58:00
http://www.jfkessentials.com/forum/index.php?topic=237.0
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now, you say:
“However, she is at the end of her capabilities.”
What do you mean by that?
State specifically what she has wrong.
Thanks, \\][//
Have you read Phillips book, Ramon?
[Ray Mitcham:]
“Ramon, you didn’t answer my question. Have you read Phillips book “A Deeper Darker truth”?”
================
I have not read it but after your post I checked and I am familiarized with that research. The name “Phillips” did not ring a bell, but “Tom Wilson” definitely did.
I must confess that I am being unfair, since I am essentially bragging against Samuel Morse:
“Hey, old man! What kind of silliness is that telegraph! Haven’t you heard of iPhones!?”
… as if I were Steve Jobs.
I am not ashamed to admit that I am playing with marked cards -and loaded dice, just to be sure- pitching 2018 research vs. Wilson’s, which was done ca. 1980.
As they say: We stand on the shoulders of giants.
I am really disappointed (*) at the JFK community, at the universities, at the MSM, at the whole country, so don’t take it personally.
Allow me to reiterate: The JFK community is unaware that the 21st. century has arrived.
We are sleeping on the shoulders of Tom Wilson.
(*) “royally pissed” is more prosaic but sincere.
Ramon, thanks for your answer.. If you read Tom Wilson’s research you would’ve seen how carefully he personally carefully measured the distances in Dealey Plaza, which led him to believe that the head shot took place further down the street than stated.. If you disagree with his figures you need to show where he was wrong. If he is right, as I believe, then the head shot could have come from the sewer grid.
Like-wise I am also pissed off at the the MSM who seem to be in thrall to the powers that be.
Every forensic pathologist who has reviewed this case ( save Cyril Wecht) has stated that JFK was hit by only 2 shots- both from behind and above. And that is the final say according to our legal and medical standard.
New technology will not change that-and in the face of documented medical facts attested to by bona fide experts, not armchair “historians” these attempts to ignore documented evidence will go where they have gone for 50 years-nowhere.
The reference to Fiester proves my point.When challenged on this site to support her credentials, she stopped posting. And yet several posters here have continued to refer to her as some kind of expert, even though no real expert to my knowledge has ever supported her interpretations. The fact that her sister ran the JFK Lancer site at the time of her jumping on the CT bandwagon is never addressed by her supporters. I wonder why.
Lyrics of a long ago popular song drift into my head:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/pdf/HSCA_Vol1_0908_8_Guinn.pdf
.PDF Pg. 13:
……
“The reference to Fiester proves my point.When challenged on this site to support her credentials, she stopped posting.”~Photon
First of all, you have a lot of gall to challenge anybody’s credentials or expertise; being the anonymous know-it-all you are.
Secondly assuming that Fiester was intimidated by you, and that was why she “stopped Posting here”, is truly ludicrous. Many high profile researchers have just dropped by to make some quick points, and do not stay for interrogations by nameless wannabe’s like you.
If you have a substantive challenge to her work, cough it up.
\\][//
How many Forensic pathologists saw the actual body, Photon? Judging from photos and X-rays, which even you must admit, could be faked, is crazy.
Was Milton Helpern crazy? He advocated just that-review of the photos, x-rays and pathological records by a panel of experts.
That was done. Why would any of the HSCA forensic pathology panel put their names to something they didn’t believe in or thought valid?
Can you explain how 1963 era technology could produce fakes of photographs AND x-rays AND the Zapruder film that could not be detected by 21st Century technology? I would like just one of the faked x-ray disciples to explain to me how it was possible-let alone explaining why every Parkland doctor who viewed the original photos 25 years later for NOVA stated that the photos agreed with their memories from Nov. 22-including McClelland.
If you have to claim that everything is faked to deal with the evidence and yet you do not have a shred of evidence proving that ANYTHING is faked how can you believe that JFK was even in his casket when it was buried in Arlington?
Ramon,
But how many CSI’s have advanced degrees? Many though do take courses, special training and also learn from experience.
I don’t necessarily agree with all that Ms. Fiester says but her background in the discipline of forensic crime scene investigation brings something fresh to the table.
Robert Frazier wasn’t totally objective. The crack in the windshield (or hole?) and the dent in the chrome-plated STEEL windshield frame deserve more attention.
Gerry:
Just to give you a minimum idea, take a look at the study below:
“If the Brazilians can do this, just imagine what we can achieve…”
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22466
A Brazilian team of researchers (I already contacted them) have found ways to identify the model of handgun used, based on the shape of THE HOLE only. Oh, and since everything is virtual, you can shoot the subject thousands of times from all angles. No need to buy a truckload of melons (which is THE most advanced technological showing of the LNs).
Not only Sherry Fiester’s research but ALL the work done (by both sides) in the investigation of the murder case is 20-50 years behind the most advanced science and the state of the art in technology.
The JFK researchers are unaware that the 21st. century arrived a long time ago.
Ramon, you didn’t answer my question. Have you read Phillips book “A Deeper Darker truth”?
Ramon, your reference is for a computer model that has not been proven to have any validity. Nowhere does it mention confirming any correlation with actual testing on human skulls. It specifically DID NOT include the effects of soft tissue, non-bone structures or even ballistic effects such as round tumbling.
How can a model that does not include any of the variables mentioned above possibly compare to a standard autopsy that actually evaluates the anatomic findings?
Computer models have their place, but their advocates have a bad habit of assuming that they are infallible and not recognizing that some problems are too complex for current programs to generate accurate results. We see that with climate models currently-the predicted events of some of the most extreme models simply are not happening.
Photon:
The answers to your question are here:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22877
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22482
(See the part about Tom Cruise).
I have a question: How come in 50+ years our universities have not worked in solving the most important unresolved Physics problem in history?
Your most advanced “research” is a bunch of melons.
Well heck, I stumbled a little further.
Amazing that so much of what was known and suspected then is still so today.
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Sylvia%20Meagher%20Clips/Sylvia%20Meagher%20Images/SM-233.pdf
Then I stumbled across this.
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Sylvia%20Meagher%20Clips/Sylvia%20Meagher%20Images/SM-233.pdf
Turns out I didn’t look far enough.
You can read it/them from here:
http://www.worldcat.org/title/forgive-my-grief-vol-1-4/oclc/500735551
Sorry I forgot to include the only link I can find.
There are four volumes.
http://www.amazon.com/Forgive-My-Grief-Penn-Jones/dp/B001ES8UMM
God Bless Penn Jones. Though he may have been wrong on the sewer man shooter his early work is important. He encouraged others to look and question early on. There are nuggets in “Forgive My Grief”.
From interviews to tracking the Dallas news at the time to literally physically fighting the DPD/KKK.
Yes but, was a sewer shot possible towards the right side of the limo just over the door to strike JFK in the throat or above the right ear?
[Gerry Simone asked:]
“was a sewer shot possible towards the right side of the limo […]?”
=============================
Gerry:
As you correctly suggest, that shot is pretty much impossible. Allow me to elaborate.
Even if it were theoretically possible, it would require such as short window of opportunity and alignment as to render it impossible by human beings.
Let’s say that today we were tasked with that job, and we are given access to all needed resources: the only way to achieve it would be controlling both the automobile and the rifle by computer, plus praying to God that the subject does not move outside the line of sight.
There is a reason I asked Mark Messer to work on this scenario:
[Open Source 3D Model of Dealey Plaza]
https://goo.gl/XI0mYk
http://www.dealey-plaza.org/
That reason is that we intend to test thousands of combinations until this principle holds:
“Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”
-Arthur Conan Doyle
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/arthurcona134512.html
I expect the sewer shoot will be early dismissed, as well as the equally risible “Jet Effect”.
Ramon, the Jet Effect theory has already been debunked AFAIK (i.e., Tony Szamboti’s work and Tink’s presentation at Lancer in 2013).
However, what you’re citing is a work-in-progress, so it would be interesting to see the results when complete, although I agree that the sewer shot theory would be a difficult thing to achieve, unless it was merely a back up relying on good luck.
As a side (and lighter) note, the famous JFK Assassination episode in the original TV series of the X-Files, shows a young Cigarette Smoking Man’s foray into the Dark Side, by firing from the infamous Elm street sewer (that is his claim to fame – I believe the actor is Canadian too).
On a more serious note, Larry Hancock’s tour last year showed us the sewer entry at the overpass, and Sherry Fiester’s tour on the south knoll might have included a discussion of a sewer there too (although no demonstration).
I took various photos last November, but can’t recollect right now, if there was a vertical grate from either end of the overpass, that could permit a shooter to plausibly fire from in a relatively concealed position.
BTW, can you provide a source for a surveyor’s plan of Dealey Plaza, which I wish to relay to our construction estimating department to conduct some auto-cad trajectory analysis?
Thank you very much for your input.
Ramon, the Jet Effect theory has already been debunked AFAIK (i.e., Tony Szamboti’s work and Tink’s presentation at Lancer in 2013).
However, what you’re citing is a work-in-progress, so it would be interesting to see the results when complete, although I agree that the sewer shot theory would be a difficult thing to achieve, unless it was merely a back up relying on good luck.
As a side (and lighter) note, the famous JFK Assassination episode in the original TV series of the X-Files, shows a young Cigarette Smoking Man’s foray into the Dark Side, by firing from the infamous Elm street sewer (that is his claim to fame – I believe the actor is Canadian too).
On a more serious note, Larry Hancock’s tour last year showed us the sewer entry at the overpass, and Sherry Fiester’s tour on the south knoll might have included a discussion of a sewer there too (although no demonstration).
I took various photos last November, but can’t recollect right now, if there was a vertical grate from either end of the overpass, that could permit a shooter to plausibly fire from in a relatively concealed position.
BTW, can you provide a source for a surveyor’s plan of Dealey Plaza, which I wish to relay to our construction estimating department to conduct some auto-cad trajectory analysis?
Thank you very much for your input.
P.S. Yes, that’s a great quote by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.
[Gerry Simone wrote:]
“I loved Tink’s presentation at Lancer (I took photos of certain slides – wish I can post images here but don’t know the HTML codes), which showed that Dr. Alvarez fudged the tests for the government’s position.”
================
You may e-mail them to me to:
ramon@dealey-plaza.org
and I will post them permanently in my web site.
Note: FF to minute 37″
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwOrDwCNkXM
Thank you Ramon, I will.
I believe I also posted here, upload links to a few of those pics I took inside the conference room, on Tiny-Pic.com shortly after the 50th conference.
“I expect the sewer shoot will be early dismissed, as well as the equally risible “Jet Effect”.”~Ramon F Herrera
Yes, in fact by pure common sense I rejected both of those hypotheses.
I think anyone with a firm grasp of basic physics would know the so-called “jet effect” is nonsense.
\\][//
Willy: This is a way to visualize what happens when two separate forces (vectors) are are in effect and produce a third one (resultant).
Case A: Both forces go in the same direction. Addition applies. Think of a person swimming to a beach when a large wave comes and helps him reach the destination faster and quicker.
Case B: The forces have opposite direction. Subtraction applies. Imagine a salmon barely able to swim upstream, slowly and with minimum total force.
The Parkland Effect is “A”, The Jet Effect is “B”.
The JE is extremely rare. All kinds of tricks are required to achieve it. It only works with melons of a specific ripeness, bound with adhesive tape. A closer model for a human head would be a coconut which cannot exhibit the JE. Those are the reasons Luis Alvarez hand-picked the melons and the other parameters: bullet caliber, distance, angle, etc.
Dr. Alvarez did not have the temerity of asking any colleague to endorse his ridiculous hypothesis, and if he had done it, they would have refused. No self respecting scientist has ever supported the Jet Effect.
I loved Tink’s presentation at Lancer (I took photos of certain slides – wish I can post images here but don’t know the HTML codes), which showed that Dr. Alvarez fudged the tests for the government’s position.
Willy: I just located this illustrative visual aid:
http://www.dealey-plaza.org/~ramon/jfk/Jet-Effect-for-Dummies.png
The golden projectile denotes the direction of the bullet and the red arrow denotes both the direction and the magnitude of the resultant movement, after all forces are accounted for.
Case 1 : Parkland Effect. The large red arrow represents the violent back snap.
Case 2 : Net movement is null. Since the longitude of the arrow is zero, we cannot see it.
Case 3 : Jet Effect. The net effect (direction of specially prepared melons) is the opposite as that of the bullet. Represented by a short, thin arrow.
This is some preliminary work, to investigate the feasibility of a sewer shot.
[Open Source 3D Model of Dealey Plaza]
https://goo.gl/XI0mYk
http://www.dealey-plaza.org/
It is technically possible to add an extremely precise simulation of how the body of JFK would have behaved, and compare it frame by frame, pixel by pixel with the Zapruder film and other images.
We can even compare the movement of the subject when hit by a medium-speed Manlichter/Carcano bullet (which, it turns out, cannot possibly displace an adult that fast) vs. a high-speed Winchester bullet (which can produce the JFK movements).
(Thanks to G. Paul Chambers)
Ramon F Herrera
May 27, 2016 at 5:18 pm
We can even compare the movement of the subject when hit by a medium-speed Manlichter/Carcano bullet (which, it turns out, cannot possibly displace an adult that fast) vs. a high-speed Winchester bullet (which can produce the JFK movements).
Not sure I’m understanding you here Ramon. What do you mean by “displace an adult that fast”? Do you mean “make him move”? It is my understanding that even the big rounds doesn’t have enough foot pounds of energy to move a man.
[Bill wrote:] “even the big rounds don’t have enough foot pounds of energy to move a man.”
=====================
Oh, yes, they do have enough punch!
The critical factor -and I cannot stress enough the importance of this- is the spot in the body where the subject is hit.
Allow me to exaggerate a little, using extremes for the purposes of illustration:
(a) A person with no rib cage can be cleanly traversed by a huge caliber projectile, without any discernible movement. Imagine a bullet going through a piece of cloth or -more relevant- how the neck shot (regardless of direction) caused zero displacement.
(b) A person with a very hard cranium, say steel (with which the transfer of energy is perfectly converted to kinetic) can be moved by a bullet of the smallest caliber.
As luck will have it, the only bone in the body which is hard enough to resist a bullet and PULL/DRAG the body with it is the cranium. God had his reasons to protect the most important of organs.
Please read these 2 chapters:
https://goo.gl/ZeLuL9
• “Head Shot” by NASA Physicist G. Paul Chambers
• “Hear No Evil” by Donald Byron Thomas
Interesting links Ramon. Thank you. This was the first time I’ve heard the old Winchester 220 Swift mentioned as the rifle that fired the fatal last shot. The Swift is certainly capable of doing so. I believe it was the first commercial rifle to exceed 4,000 fps.
But as you know there is another school of thought that the bullet cannot move a man. I’ve thrown in one of many references to this. Personally, I don’t know. I’ve seen men shot with a .50 cal MG and drop like a lead ball. And then I’ve seen some that did the dance so to speak. I tend to think it more the reaction of the target to the shock of the bullet that makes him move.
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“Does shooting someone really cause them to fly backwards?
Does it depend on the gun (i.e. handgun, shotgun, rifle)? Sometimes in the movies, they don’t fly backward and instead do a sort of Pinocchio dance as the bullets hit, so I’m also interested in whether the Pinocchio dance is real.”
“No. This does not happen. In fact, it could not happen.”
“https://www.quora.com/Does-shooting-someone-really-cause-them-to-fly-backwards”
“No. This does not happen. In fact, it could not happen.”
“https://www.quora.com/Does-shooting-someone-really-cause-them-to-fly-backwards”
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Which explains the fact that JFK did not fly backwards. His buttocks were touching the seat of the limo. By definition this does not qualify as flying. Think of somebody hitting his head with a baseball bat.
What is your explanation for the violent back snap?
[Bill:] “But as you know there is another school of thought that the bullet cannot move a man.”
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Every single head shot that I have found in YouTube corroborates the Parkland Effect (i.e. the human head moves in the same direction as the bullet).
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22351
[Bill:] “there is another school of thought that the bullet cannot move a man.”
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From the McAdams site:
Alfred G. Olivier, DVM to Rockefeller Commission, April 18, 1975
Q. Have you ever seen an instance in which an animal body, from the impact of the bullet itself, thrust violently in the direction away from the gunner?
A. Never.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/headwnd.htm
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Dear doctor Olivier, this is Ramon Herrera from the future. 40 years after you declared to the Rockefeller Commission, we have something called “The Internet” and “YouTube” which can be used very effectively to detect Pinocchios.
Every shot to human heads in YouTube results in the head moving in the direction of the projectile.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22351
“What do you mean by “displace” ?
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cause (something) to move from its proper or usual place.
“he seems to have displaced some vertebrae”
synonyms: dislodge, dislocate, move, shift, reposition;
https://www.google.com/#q=define+displace
A comprehensive study on the storm drain shot:
https://app.box.com/s/i3uxvfbtmc1g610bzrjjv7kwm3hkkyho