I nominate a forgotten tape recording that surfaced in 2011. The unedited Air Force One tapes from the afternoon of November 22, 1963 could be a reveleatory–if it ever surfaces.
CLICK HERE TO BUY A BOOK SIGNED BY JEFFERSON MORLEY
A recording of radio communications to and from Air Force One on November 22,1963, discovered in 2011, is among the most important new pieces of JFK evidence to emerge in recent years,
The tape, an edited excerpt from a longer recording, captures some of the communications of the leaders of U.S. national security agencies as they learned about the assassination of a sitting president.
I wrote about the importance of the Air Force One tape in the fall of 2013:
“Audio engineer on the trail of a long-lost JFK tape” (JFK Facts, Nov. 6, 2013)
“Enhanced Air Force One tape captures top general’s response to JFK’s murder” (JFK Facts, Oct. 19, 2013)
You can listen to it here.
Where was the Air Force One tape found?
This old-fashioned reel of analog tape surfaced at Philadelphia auction house in 2011. The recording was found in the estate of the family of Gen. Chester Clifton, a military aide to JFK. Clifton died in 1991. His children put the estate up for auction.
Bill Kelly, a JFK researcher, enlisted Primeau Forensics, a Michigan audio engineering firm, to produce a cleaned-up version of the tape.
When was the tape first made public?
Kelly’s I wrote about the significance of the Air Force One tapes in piece published in the Oct. 27, 2013, print edition of the Dallas Morning News.
The Detroit Free Press, USA Today, and CNN picked up on the story of the tapes.
Why is the Air Force One tape important?
“The government created these recordings,” audio engineer Ed Primeau told JFK Facts. “The editing shows that somebody made decisions about what they wanted the public to know and hear and what they didn’t want the public to know and hear.”
The tapes capture a fascinating and tragic moment in American history.
Listen to the tape (parts 1,2 3, and 4) as cleaned up and transcribed by Bill Kelly and Ed Primeau with a running transcript and visuals from Primeau Productions.
Read Kelly’s summary of what we know about the missing portions of Air Force One tapes.
*****
COME BACK TOMORROW FOR JFK STORY #16: A close friend of Jack Ruby’s says he had “no choice” but to kill Lee Harvey Oswald
CLICK HERE TO BUY A BOOK SIGNED BY JEFFERSON MORLEY
If it’s ok, I would like to share something.
Edwin Collins (JFK head/ kill shot) & Tom Howard (Connolly hand), were in the pergola behind Zapruder.
The other gunman (JFK throat shot)was on the roof of the records building across from depository and is unknown.
Collins & Howard can be seen in the Moorman photo, with their rifles in hand. You can use a magnifying glass if you need it.
Collins is the one in the pergola window aiming his rifle. Howard is the one in the blue shirt & sun glasses, peeking from the side, with his rifle upward (not aiming).
They can also be seen the Nix film firing. You have to find a version that hasn’t cropped the pergola completely out so you can see Collins muzzle flash from the 2nd window.
They can both be seen in the Darnell film as well.
The roof shooter can be seen in the Zapruder film. Any version that hasn’t cut or covered the reflection that can be seen in the upper left hand side of the film. Look for the street lamp in the reflection. Right above that you can see his silhouette on the roof aiming.
If you look close enough you can see the flash when he fires, and then immediately after, you see the President grab his throat. That’s because the bullet went into the back of his neck & out the front of his throat.
If you look up the model camera used by Zapruder, you can find that a number of complaints were reported to the company concerning the reflection issues, which were caused by the concave lenses that specific model had.
Thank you very much for allowing me to share.
Dear Jeff, the most important piece of new evidence is still Prayerman. Marina Oswald has now identified him as Lee. See Bart Kamp’s site.
http://www.prayer-man.com/
Bryan Lynch has gotten it right. !00%! As taxpayers I have always felt we all have a vested interest in learning what really happened. The court asks the question, “What benefit would learning the truth be to the individual citizen? For starters as taxpayers we all should be interested in the performance of the government we pay for. That being for the government to act in our best interest. I have a question for the court. How can we judge, for instance CIA performance in the matters concerned with the murder of JFK? Which is exactly what CIA has prevented with it’s stonewalling and lies. The question the court submits, I suggest is irrelevant! Maybe a petition to the government by the public demanding all information be released immediately for no other reason than to hold CIA responsible is exactly what it needed at this point. I for one have no confidence in much of what CIA has done but more questions about why we don’t focus on their failures. Lest none of us forget the counterfeit and compromised DOJ has aided CIA time and again because it is complaisant. Always more than willing to bend to CIA’s will without learning the facts because of CIA’s BS claims of sources and methods. Brian you are so right we all need to demand to know the truth. NOW!
The fact that crucial evidence was removed from the tapes in question is quite revealing. It seems to me that it is more confirmation that the “shadow government” has , and will continue to go to , great lengths to prevent crucial informational facts to be revealed to the American. This is really not much different than all of the redactions in the heretofore released documents. It is obstruction of justice, plain and simple. As a taxpayer who helps fund all of this, I would like some answers.
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An interesting similiar question to; “What’s the most important piece of new JFK assassination evidence?” is “what’s the most neglected piece of assassination evidence.” I find this interesting because the controlled release of information seems to have had a chilling effect on the public’s desire for action. My favourites in the ‘most neglected’ category are :
1. The Acoustic evidence. (Successfully rubbished)
2. The Parkland testimony. (Would have been a bombshell if released with the Warren Report)
3. Robert Blakey’s condemnation of the CIA. (Again pretty drastic news had it been delivered by a similarly positioned Warren Commissioner)
I agree, Eddy. Everything you need to know about a cover up of the medical evidence, specifically the amount of damage caused by a bullet entering the top of JFK’s right lung, can be found in the Warren Commission testimonies of Dr. Carrico and Dr. Perry.
Whether these testimonies have been neglected, or whether the majority of researchers simply do not understand the evidence, is the question.
‘waiting out’ the public’s interest has been the most effective tool of the mockingbird.
Ed Lopez wanted Anne Goodpsture indicted for lying.
If true, implies that Lopez was an unbalanced fanatic.
Thoughtful, measured appraisal by a prominent political scientist. Thank you, Dr. McAdams!
An unbalanced fanatic? To me that’s a description of a lone nutter who rants and raves constantly about the veracity of the Warren Omission findings.
Another ad hominem attack, professor? It seems you’d rather insult people than debate the evidence.
What’s the evidence that:
1. Lopez was going to charge Goodpasture with anything, and . . .
2. Goodpasture lied about anything?
Saying Lopez wanted to charge Goodpasture is not evidence.
What is the evidence?
Bart Kamp and ROKC are not credible, as any sensible person who takes a few minutes to read the obnoxious fevered trolling their website consists of while they ask the mainstream assassination world to take them seriously, would see. Over the last few months we have finally settled the Prayer Man issue through scientific examination of the visible height differences between Prayer Man and Frazier in the Darnell frame and Prayer Man and Lovelady in Wiegman. David Josephs claims that you cannot compare people in any photo due to perspective distortion, however this is an easily disproven claim as any credible application of photo analysis will quickly show. In Darnell Prayer Man and Frazier are standing less than a foot in depth apart according to the distance from Darnell’s lens, making any perspective differential negligible. You can clearly see with the naked eye that Prayer Man is a full 7 inches or so shorter than the 6 foot tall Frazier – making him 5 foot 5 and therefore excluding him from being the 5 foot 9 Oswald. Robin Unger’s Wiegman gif shows Lovelady step from the landing to the first step down. While he is doing this Prayer Man remains in the same spot on the landing. When Lovelady is on the landing he is about 2-3 inches taller than Prayer Man as Prudhomme admitted. When Lovelady is on the first step down he is about 4 inches shorter than Prayer Man. Since the step is 7 inches high the height differences seen in Unger’s frames perfectly triangulate a 5 foot 5 person being framed by a 5 foot 8 person stepping 7 inches down. – A second precise corroboration of a person of known height showing Prayer Man to be 5 foot 5. This ends the issue gentlemen. I suggest ROKC be ignored just as it is ignoring this irrefutable proof. The worst part about those ROKC fools is when they do get the scan it will show a 5 foot 5 woman.
In posing the question, “why are the AF1 tapes important”?
Morley provides the following statement:
“The government created these recordings,” audio engineer Ed Primeau told JFK Facts. “The editing shows that somebody made decisions about what they wanted the public to know and hear and what they didn’t want the public to know and hear.”
So what can we take from this? Only that because “the government made these recordings” they have general historical significance.
In regard to solving the assassination, they only provide another avenue for speculation as to what is on the bits edited out.
So I ask – how is this different to the WC taking witnesses “off the record”? Those “off the record” moments have been known for over 50 years and are cause for concern and suspicion. But ultimately get us nowhere.
Try this: Can anyone give me one fact contained in the tapes that moves the resolution of the assassination forward? Is there ANYTHING ACTUALLY ON the tapes that helps resolve the case at all?
In 400+ posts, I cannot for the life of me, find that brilliant diamond that makes these tapes any more than your average historical museum piece.
What makes them important at this point is the FACT that they were edited. Yes we can speculate about what was on them. But the issue is that apparently something was on them that someone with the authority to do the editing thought the information on them should be withheld from the public.
We may never know what else was on them but we do know someone in our government decided we should not know what was.
Thanks for confirming my thoughts, Ronnie…. so the most important recent research is that there is stuff that we don’t know about…
Amazing.
A profound statement George. If your not thinking deeper than what we are told officially I guess this would seem amazing.
At this point, why am I reminded of the sage words of Donald Rumsfeld:
“The message is that there are no “knowns.” There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don’t know. So when we do the best we can and we pull all this information together, and we then say well that’s basically what we see as the situation, that is really only the known knowns and the known unknowns. And each year, we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns.”
I’m guessing this is a known unknown.
But who knows?
What’s amazing is that we have known for over 50 years that information has been withheld, edited, redacted, flushed and burned (tho not necessarily in that order).
These tapes are merely another example. It’s a phenomenon, not a reevaluation – and it’s one that gets us precisely nowhere.
I’m gobsmacked that anyone could say that finding more more example of an “unknown” somehow qualifies as the greatest recent discovery.
“She was practiced at the art of deception, I could tell by her bloodstained hands”.
Again.
There are a number of transcriptions – the official one released by LBJ library that misidentifies some of the participants – Kathy Cunningham did one and I transcribed both versions and combined them. BK
Am I alone in noticing that there are portions of audio that are not transcribed, particularly in the first of the four recordings…?
No photo evidence including prayer man has changed what we know about the case – it’s a shame Prayer Man Disciples must hijack a thread about the AF1 tapes and can’t start a thread on Prayer Man and how and why it’s important. No new evidence can be significant unless everyone recognizes it and accepts it and while Prayer Man and all the photo evidence is controversial – the AF1 tapes are undisputed.
BK
Get a grip! Means, Motive, and Opportunity. The three groups who wanted JFK put $2 mil each into a pot, divvied up the respected areas where they could assassinate him, and said the first group to get him took the $6 mil jackpot. The groups were: the Cubans, the Mafia, and Hunt, Murchison, & Co. Now, obviously, there may have been some discounting due to using hit teams that each group may have contracted in each designated hit city, but that was all worked out. I think you guys get the idea; at that time, the Mob and the Cubans all intermixed for various executive actions in the US, as well as Central and South America. This is not too difficult a picture to figure out. The Chicago and Tampa plans for a hit on JFK were in place. Chicago was foiled, I think Tampa was a no go. Dallas was a go. There is no big digging deep to get to the bottom of this. JFK was shot in the throat, the back, and the front parietal whatever area: what more do you need to see from the Zapruder film. It contains everything you need to know.
The Prayer Man image is important in the context that Wesley Buell Frazier has tap-danced around, and refused to be clear about just who it was that was standing right next to him on the Texas School Book Depository stairs.
The fact that you can’t get a straight answer out of Frazier, and the image happens to look like Lee Harvey Oswald, is troubling….not to mention the outstanding work of Sean Murphy, Stan Dane, Barto & the gang over at ROKC who have possibly placed Oswald on the first floor, not the sixth floor, at the time of the shooting.
(Tom S. notes: This “Max” is not the alias associated with annie, april, gemini, and sammy.)
Thx for the kind words Max. The search for a better quality image goes on. What is most important is the fact that the actual image is merely the icing on the cake.
The deniers, like Albert Doyle, have to do only one thing, instead of arguing about imaginary heights and distances they ‘manage’ to see in a fuzzy image….. Put forward a clear image of the Darnell reel, be it the 1st generation copy that the 6th Floor Museum holds or the original Wiegman and Darnell film held by NBC. If that clear image would show it was not Oswald I’d be prepared to walk away from all of this after I’d admit my mistake. But they won’t, they rather dither about, troll forums, spread lies and talk complete rubbish instead as they know that Lee Oswald was standing on this steps.
“Out with Bill Shelley in front”
Does anyone know if these transmissions were on HF or VHF…?
I know that large aircraft in the 60’s had both.
Ok….These recordings appear to be of the HF link on SSB…
It’s a shame everyone wants to discuss what they think is the most important evidence – Z-film and Prayer Man – both debatable and open to viewers interpetation while the AF1 radio tapes are not debatable but reflect what they say – and what is edited out. The original unedited tape is the most significant evidence in the case and may still be put in public domain someday.
Bill Kelly
Why is there shame in that, when Prayer Man could have serious consequences for the case. The AF tapes will not solve anything of serious consequence at all.
The ramifications of solving Prayer Man are tenfold compared to the Af1 tapes. By looking at Prayer Man you have to look at the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter, which was a bare faced lie, among the many other things. There is far too much evidence pointing to a concocted story that never happened in the first place after the assassination.
Since we are talking Prayer Man here, were you not going to review Stan Dane’s book months ago? What is up with that?
In my opinion the Prayer Man image is the most important piece of new JFK assassination evidence.
A seemingly counterintuitive comment but one that needs to be made: The lack of any concrete, irrefutable evidence to support the theory that Oswald harbored enough ill will toward JFK to kill him.
Even the Warren Commission said, in effect, that it didn’t have any real idea why Oswald (according to the commission) killed Kennedy
Yes, the lack of motive is a huge problem for those who claim Oswald killed Kennedy.
However the motive of the Military Industrial Complex is clear enough.
Kennedy was intent on stopping the Cold War, the “money maker” for the perpetrators who pulled off the coup d’etat in Dallas.
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He angered so many powerful interests with aspects such as the threat to revoke the oil depletion allowance; creating the first arms limitation agreement with the Soviet Union; his calls for increased civil rights; his efforts to resolve relations with Cuba; and declarations for world peace despite differences.
“House of Cards” is an extremely popular netcast Netflix produced series of drama episodes starring film and stage actor Kevin Spacey. – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Cards_%28U.S._TV_series%29
The fourth season of “House of Cards” debuted 27 hours ago to Netflix subscribers. All of the 13 episodes of season four are released simultaneously and many viewers engage in “binge watching.”
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/04/entertainment/house-of-cards-season-4-reviews-feat/index.html
I am relating this because in the fourth episode of this new release Mr. Spacey’s character Frank Underwood, President of the United States, is shot and severely wounded while attempting to engage protesting students on a rope line.
There is some chance renewed and first time interest in the details of the Kennedy Assassination and its aftermath will be spurred by the release of this plot line, especially since “President Underwood’s” public appearance was also associated with a 2016 presidential campaign subplot.
There may be more readers than usual visiting JFKfacts.org and although nothing can be done as far as improving the relevant detail and tone of comments already appearing on JFKfacts.org, all who intend to submit comments can take these developments into account and consider that any newly approved comment will contribute to the first impressions of new visitors to these comments threads.
z frame 312 is not connected to frame 313. z frame 312 motion is from the limo slowing and eventually stopping. then comes frame 313. this is the editing sequence. none of this is important since the whole sequence is narrative fraud. I told the guys down in dealey plaza giving lectures and selling film that I could do a better job painting the head wound scenes. They were gentlemen and didn’t yell at me. But, it ended the conversation.
Is there anyone out there doing work on reflections shown I photos of the assassination, particularly Altgens.
I take it John Butler is talking about the “alteration” of the Z-film.
It is balderdash Mr Butler, frame 312 is the frame just prior to 313, there is no edit there.
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I think the most important evidence in the Kennedy assassination has been and continues to be the Zapruder film. It is a visual record of the shots that killed President Kennedy. And it proves the head shot came from the front.
Target Movement
“When examining the Zapruder film frame by frame, it is readily apparent the President Kennedy’s head moves forward slightly for one frame before his head and shoulders move backward in response to the gunshot wound to the head.
German wound ballistic researcher Bernd Karger, states initial transfer of energy causes the target to move minutely into the force and against the line of fire, prior to target movement with the force of the moving bullet. Karger found greater the transferred energy, the more pronounced the forward movement (Karger, 2008). Wound ballistic researcher Robin Coupland used high-speed photography to confirm and document the forward movement into the line of fire referenced by Karger (Coupland, 2011).
Researchers Karger and Coupland noted the force in a moving bullet is energy of motion, or kinetic energy. Upon impact, the bullet pushes against the head, and initially, as the weight of the head is greater than the weight of the bullet, the head moves against the line of fire. As the projectile slows, more kinetic energy transfers to the target. A overcoming the weight of the head with a sufficient transfer of energy causes the target to move with the continued direction of force of the moving bullet. Application of contemporary wound ballistics research to the movement observed in the Zapruder film indicates a minute forward motion followed by more pronounced rearward movement—consistent with a single shot from the front.”~Sherry Fiester CSI
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To understand wound ballistics, one must first have a firm grasp of basic Newtonian Physics; Momentum, Trajectory, and Kinetics.
The intricacies of of ballistics is founded on these basics.
To Understand the Zapruder film, one must first have a firm grasp on movie making machinery ie: cameras, projectors, splicing equipment, etc.
One must also understand the medium of film itself, its properties and the chemistry of the dyes and celluloid.
Then, if one is going to assert “alteration”, one must understand the field of special effects cinematography.
If one does NOT understand these things, one is not going to grasp the arguments that prove the Zapruder film is authentic.
The grasp of ballistics, and of cinematography combine as necessities in understanding the best evidence in the JFK murder, the Zapruder film.
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“…so; what you’re saying in so many words, is that you willy, are the “go to, sole expert(self appointed)”, and that everyone else must adhere to your opinion, or they’re “full of it”. Does that about sum it all up? Well, there are some in the film industry who “differ” with you, but said they “won’t waste their time” arguing with you(they’re too busy working!!) as to weather or not the Z film has been altered! As far as your being a “ballistics expert:”..ever been in combat Willie? Ever kill anyone?I suspect that the answer is “NO!” Trust me: I have no doubts that President Kennedy was struck almost simultainiously, by multiple projectiles, to his head! You wanna “get down” about the Z film: Lets get down bro! You know,I agree with you about a lot of things, but your opinion isn’t the only one buddy!”-DM
For me, the “newest” evidence is not new at all, but it was suppressed from the public for 12 years. That, all by itself, is the literal smoking gun of this case – the Z-film.
All you have to do is watch it – the hands jerking up to the throat, then the body pushed forward from the back shot hitting (2 shots).
Connally reacts to his shot (1 shot).
Then the almost simultaneous shots to the head pushing it down, then slamming the entire body backward and to the left (2 shots).
And though unseen, the piece flying onto the trunk which Mrs. Kennedy tried to retrieve.
Is it any wonder why this film was suppressed until 1975?
“….Then the almost simultaneous shots to the head pushing it down, then slamming the entire body backward and to the left (2 shots).”
Bullets throw people’s bodies around in Hollywood movies, but not in real life. See this Mythbusters demo, for instance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPGNtFU0ww0
Or this reply from a former SWAT team member and firearms instructor:
https://www.quora.com/Does-shooting-someone-really-cause-them-to-fly-backwards
The idea that “back and to the left” is evidence of the bullet’s direction is a myth — this has been demonstrated repeatedly in other YouTube clips and expert testimony.
Sorry Jean but your Mythbusters show doesn’t replicate the conditions of Kennedy being stuck in the head by a high powered rifle shot. Such a shot certainly has the kinetic energy to push a human head. The rest of the body merely toppled over with the movement of the head.
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Sorry, Willy, but I prefer expert opinion and demos, not your repetition of another JFK myth.
The fatal shot moved JFK’s head forward slightly between frames 312 and 313, which is when the bullet struck. Physicist Richard Feynman pointed this out to David Lifton many years ago.
By the time the backward lurch began the damage was already done, the bullet was long gone and couldn’t “push” anything.
“The fatal shot moved JFK’s head forward slightly between frames 312 and 313, which is when the bullet struck.”~Jean Davison
Sherry Fiester explains the head not in her book ‘Enemy of the Truth’ The head is not “pushed forward” the head for that split second as the bullet first contacts it is heavier than the missile, and leans forward against it. Only after the center of gravity is reached as the bullet inters the skull does the kinetic energy push the head back.
“German wound ballistic researcher Bernd Karger, states initial transfer of energy causes the target to move minutely into the force and against the line of fire, prior to target movement with the force of the moving bullet. Karger found greater the transferred energy, the more pronounced the forward movement (Karger, 2008). Wound ballistic researcher Robin Coupland used high-speed photography to confirm and document the forward movement into the line of fire referenced by Karger (Coupland, 2011).”
See 4 frames of “Death of a Lightbulb” from a slow motion movie of a bullet penetrating a lightbulb that illustrates this at:
https://hybridrogue1.wordpress.com/2015/03/05/sherry-fiester-on-enemy-of-the-truth/#comment-5693
Furthermore Jean, you have the Z-film itself that shows Kennedy’s head thrown back at impact, and his body following that momentum as he falls to the left. What more do you need than this visual evidence?
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“German wound ballistic researcher Bernd Karger, states initial transfer of energy causes the target to move minutely into the force and against the line of fire, prior to target movement with the force of the moving bullet.”
Sounds very improbable to me, Willy, but I’m no expert. Can you give me a direct quote from Karger, please? Googling it, I only found Karger saying this, which I don’t think you’re going to like very much:
“The momentum transferred to the target does not knock the human body down or drive it significantly backwards, even if shown so a thousand times on television.”
last paragraph, p. 153 here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=_qO9S3EO7FMC&pg=PA139&dq=Bernd+karger&hl=pt-BR&ei=woLxTLrbGcL-8AaZhuHlDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-thumbnail&resnum=2&ved=0CDIQ6wEwAQ#v=onepage&q=energy%20deposit&f=false
“The momentum transferred to the target does not knock the human body down or drive it significantly backwards, even if shown so a thousand times on television.”~Bernd Karger
–As quoted by Jean Davison
The key word here is “significantly”;
“does not…drive it significantly backwards”.
Ballistic experts, Krager included, do not say it won’t move a body at all,that is why the qualifier; “significantly”.
Krager and others are talking about body shots throwing a whole person flying backward in movies.
It’s like saying someone getting hit in the head by a bat isn’t going the move the head in the direction of the bat.
Or conversely saying that someone getting hit in the stomach by a bat would knock a person through the air.
Use some common sense Jean, when interpreting what these experts are saying.
Again Jean, just as the shots to a 200 lb pig carcass will barely move the body, a hit to a human head by the same kinetic energy would certainly move a human head; We have film of it happening, the Z-film.
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So you don’t have a direct quote from Karger, I take it?
Forensic Ballistics – Brend Krager
http://webzoom.freewebs.com/balisticaterminal/Forensic_ballistics_Karger.pdf
Wound Ballistics – Basics and Applications
Translation of the revised third German edition (2008)
With 234 figures and 156 tables
PC/Downloads/__Wound_Ballistics__Basics_and_Applications.pdf
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I can’t find any such quote in your links. Can you?
I asked for a quote, Willy. I see no such statement in your links.
Jean,
I’m afraid I don’t see those precise words in the chapter by Karger. However it is chapter 9, of what must be a longer article or book. Fiester cites Karger 2008. I don’t know if the information might be in another chapter.
However the proof of concept can be seen in the stills from the film ‘Death of a Light Bulb’ by Harold Edgerton.
Also, if you did read 9.2.4 Special Wound Ballistics of the Head, you will realize that Feynman was incorrect in saying “By the time the backward lurch began the damage was already done, the bullet was long gone and couldn’t “push” anything.” a bullet will transverse a human head in some ten thousandth of a second. The damage may be “done” but the physical reaction of the body is not done.
Again I remind all reading, the proof is in the Zapruder film itself, Kennedy’s head is thrown back to the left from the impact, and his body follows that momentum and falls to the left as well.
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Jean, you could send a question to the source, Bernd Karger;
http://www.pubfacts.com/author/Bernd+Karger
Apparently Willy is satisfied with Ms. Feister’s interpretation, paraphrasing of Karger’s research details.
“an area which is difficult to research…”
Yes, but some basics are there. Back and to the left spraying motorcycle Officer Hargis with blood and brains.
“Obviously this is an area which is
difficult to research”~Tom
Yes, difficult not only in time and effort, but financially: One can download the abstract and description of ‘Wound Ballistics Basics and Applications’ for free on the web, but if you want the actual contents, it will cost you $179.00. The same is true for most other books and journal articles on this “specialists” topic.
See:
ISBN: 978-3-642-20355-8 (Print) 978-3-642-20356-5 (Online)
(Buy this eBook ; $179.00 / €142.79 / £129.50*)
http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-3-642-20356-5
. . .
There are numerous works by Karger in this category, and I suspect that the open source free example I found is part of a larger work, as it is obviously Chapter 9.
And yes I am satisfied with what I have found so far that fills out Fiester. But more than anything it is what is in the Zapruder film itself. Combining this remark by Karger, and what is seen in the film:
“If the internal pressures are high enough, indirect skull fractures will combine to an ‘‘explosive’’ type of head injury [54] with comminuted fractures of the skull and laceration of the brain.”~Krager
Exactly what we see in the Zapruder film. JFK’s head nods forward a fraction of a second, as backspatter spews from the entrance wound, dissipating within a single frame. His head is then thrown back and to the left, and his body follows that momentum, falling to the left as well.
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“Wound ballistic researcher Robin Coupland used high-speed photography to confirm and document the forward movement into the line of fire referenced by Karger (Coupland, 2011).”
See 4 frames of “Death of a Lightbulb” from a slow motion movie of a bullet penetrating a lightbulb that illustrates this…”
“Death of a Lightbulb” is a famous series of photos by Harold Edgerton:
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=harold+edgerton+death+of+a+light+bulb
These photos may illustrate “back spatter,” but they surely don’t illustrate a light bulb’s “forward movement into the line of fire.” Good grief, Willy, light bulbs that lean into a bullet?
Maybe you could use Tom’s link to try to get a quote of some kind from Karger about a target moving “into the line of fire”?
Ronnie,
“Yes, but some basics are there. Back and to the left spraying motorcycle Officer Hargis with blood and brains.”
Blood and brains also fell on the Connallys and the agents in the front seat, on the side rails of the car and onto the floor.
Back and to the left, up and forward, down and to the side!
That’s not as catchy as the CT slogan but it’s the truth.
“These photos may illustrate “back spatter,” but they surely don’t illustrate a light bulb’s “forward movement into the line of fire.” Good grief, Willy, light bulbs that lean into a bullet?”~Jean Davison
The light bulb certainly does lean slightly toward the bullet in the left lower frame.
If your lack of visual acuity is about to be framed by your rhetoric as being an issue of “subjectivity” – so be it Jean. I am not going to attempt to convince you. I leave it to the good sense of the individual reader.
For their convenience the sequence can be viewed here:
https://hybridrogue1.wordpress.com/2015/03/05/sherry-fiester-on-enemy-of-the-truth/#comment-5693
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Back to the Z-film itself:
“ITEK Corporation confirmed that measurement in the May 1976 report completed for CBS. Thompson displays page 78 of the report, which indicates Kennedy’s head moved forward 2.26 inches and his shoulders moved forward 1.1 inches between frames 312 and 313, just 1/18th of a second .”~Sherry Fiester – Enemy of the Truth
Of course the rest of the action of JFK’s head and body are also documented in the Z-film, that which is most obvious as the film is in motion, his head and body both move violently to the back and left.
The head nod, and the backspatter combine to prove a shot from the front.
The “FRONT” was NOT the Grassy Knoll. Kennedy was facing the southwest corner of Dealey Plaza at the time the bullet struck him in the head, just above the right ear in a tangential strike to his temple.
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Yet another of those zombie factoids.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hargis.htm
Hargis himself said the brain matter was blown into the air, and he “run through it.”
Brain matter went everywhere:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/exploded.htm
“Hargis himself said the brain matter was blown into the air, and he “run through it.”
Brain matter went everywhere”~John McAdams
Good grief John, you’re not seriously suggesting this proves John Kennedy was hit in the BACK of the head are you?
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If as John and Jean suggest the blood spatter dispersed evenly around JFK’s head, and, he was on the passenger side of the limo, why have we never read of the motorcycle cops on the passenger side being splattered?
McAdams,
Where did Assistant Press Secretary, Kilduff point his finger when asked where Kennedy was hit? He pointed to his right temple. Did he not?
Where did Malcolm Perry say the shot to the throat came from on the same day? He said it came from the front. Did he not?
Where did all this get turned around backwards Mr McAdams? It was at the botched so-called “autopsy” at Bethesda. Was it not?
“Crimes are conceived and they’re solved – in the imagination.”~Sherlock Holmes
It takes very little imagination to solve this crime, it was conceived by the military industrial complex, who were desperate to continue their money making scam of perpetrating wars.
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“The light bulb certainly does lean slightly toward the bullet in the left lower frame.”
Think about it, Willy. How can an inanimate object like a light bulb “lean”?
Besides, in the left lower frame it’s too late for any “leaning” since the bullet is already inside the bulb, as explained in this quote from the Metropolitan Museum:
“When “read” in sequential order (from top to bottom, left to right), the four photographs represent the sequential passage of a bullet through a light bulb, broken into presumably equal intervals of time. In other words, Edgerton leads his viewers to follow a plot of “death” from its inevitability (implied by an approaching bullet) in the first frame to the slow entry and internalization of the bullet by the bulb in the next two frames. In the final photograph, the bullet exits its victim, leaving a spattering of dust and a cracked, soon-to-collapse bulb in its wake.
http://framejournal.org/view-article/14
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/ph/web-large/DP119282.jpg
“Think about it, Willy. How can an inanimate object like a light bulb “lean”?”~Jean Davison
It’s physics Jean. How can a bar of iron lean against a wall? Are you serious Jean?
Do apples leap out of apple trees Jean?
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Because you only read conspiracy books.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/exploded.htm
Note that Cheney was hit, and he was riding to Kennedy’s right.
Of course he was hit in the back of the head, in the cowlick area, blowing blood and brain matter into the air just as we see in the Zapruder film.
“Of course he was hit in the back of the head, in the cowlick area, blowing blood and brain matter into the air just as we see in the Zapruder film.” ~John McAdams
But that assertion flies in the face of modern ballistics and pathology:
“When a projectile strikes the skull, radial fractures are created which extend outward from the wound. Internal pressure from temporary cavitation produces concentric fractures create that are perpendicular to the radial fractures. Research addressing the sequencing of radial and concentric of skull fractures in gunshot injuries indicates the radial fractures stem from the point of entry (Viel, 2009; Karger, 2008; Smith, 1987; Leestma, 2009).
The Clark Panel observed extensive fracturing in the autopsy X-rays. The panel report specified there was extensive fragmentation “of the bony structures from the midline of the frontal bone anteriorly to the vicinity of the posterior margin of the parietal bone behind”. The report goes on the state, “throughout this region, many of the bony pieces have been displaced outward; several pieces are missing”. The Clark Panel report indicates the majority of the fracturing and displaced bones fragments are closer to the location they described as the exit wound; this is in direct conflict with scientific research concerning skull fractures resulting from gunshot injuries.
The Kennedy autopsy report stated multiple fracture lines radiated from both the large defect and the smaller defect at the occiput, the longest measuring approximately 19 centimeters. This same fracturing pattern was discussed in the Assassinations Records Review Board deposition of Jerrol Francis Custer, the X-ray technician on call at Bethesda Hospital the night of the Kennedy autopsy. Custer testified the trauma to the head began at the front and moved towards the back of the head (CE 387 16H978; ARRB MD 59:10).
Kennedy’s autopsy X-rays have distinct radial fractures propagating from the front of the head, with the preponderance of concentric fractures located at the front of the head. Current research indicates fracturing patterns of this nature correspond with an entry wound located in the front of Kennedy’s head.”
~Sherry Fiester CSI
One more comment for Jean,
If she understood, even the basics of physics she would know that any inanimate object can be animated by an outside force:
Newton’s 1st Law
“An object at rest will remain at rest unless acted on by an unbalanced force. An object in motion continues in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.
This law is often called “the law of inertia”.
Newton’s 2nd Law
“Acceleration is produced when a force acts on a mass. The greater the mass (of the object being accelerated) the greater the amount of force needed (to accelerate the object).”
Newton’s 3rd Law
“For every action there is an equal and opposite re-action.”
. . .
It is this 3rd law that causes the light bulb to lean against the bullet when it first comes in contact. The bulb/head for that split second as the bullet first contacts it is heavier than the missile, and leans forward against it. Only after the center of gravity is reached as the bullet inters the skull does the kinetic energy push the head back.
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“Physicist Richard Feynman pointed this out to David Lifton many years ago.
By the time the backward lurch began the damage was already done, the bullet was long gone and couldn’t “push” anything.”~Jean Davison
I will not take for granted that Jean actually read this, so I am posting it here:
“Although the principles of wound ballistics are not so complicated, bullets take a special position among the objects relevant in traumatology due to their physical characteristics: compared to other wounding agents, the mass is very small and the velocity is high. Unlike other blunt accelerated objects, this allows per se a deep penetration of tissue. But unlike sharp force, a dynamic penetration mechanism is effective which has not ended by the time the bullet exits.”
[…]
“The third part is dedicated to blood and tissue particles exiting via the entrance wound: backspatter. The direction against the line of fire is the reason for the high evidential value of this phenomenon.”~Karger (9.1 Introduction – pg. 141)
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I just came across this, which I had been looking for during the recent debate with Jean. Having to do with the head nod of JFK in the Zapruder film, the same physics as involved in the Death of a Light Bulb sequence:
Mr. STURDIVAN – “There is another section of film here, before we get to the skulls, which we forgot to mention. Perhaps we should go ahead and go through it since it is already there. This is a can of tomatoes which I think demonstrates some of the principles of physics that are involved here. The picture will be much the same as those with the skull. The bullet will be coming in from the left, will strike the can and you will see pieces of the can moving toward the right in the direction of the bullet, but you will also see pieces of the can moving in other directions.
**Notably, the top of the can will be moving back toward the left in the direction from which the bullet came.**
You notice the backsplash as the bullet has entered the left-hand side of the can. The material is beginning to move back out. This is called the backsplash of the projectile. In the next case, the bullet is still within the can and, in fact, has stopped within the can.”– HSCA testimony
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And that was the shot that appeared to come on a direct line from the grassy knoll area to JFK.
“The government created these recordings,” audio engineer Ed Primeau told JFK Facts. “The editing shows that somebody made decisions about what they wanted the public to know and hear and what they didn’t want the public to know and hear.”
JMorley March3/16
The tapes capture a fascinating and tragic moment in history.
The fact that hours and hours are missing from the Air Force 1 Tapes is a perfect example of the uphill battle for those of us who want to understand the Kennedy Mystery.
The partial tapes that exist are a tape recording of some of the history as it happened after the tragic events on the afternoon of 11/22/63.
The new info is quite intriguing about LeMay coming into Washington from Canada.
The tapes also opens up the possibility there was an autopsy before the Official Autopsy.
It is quite possible that wounds were dissected, and bullets & bullet fragments were removed from the dead President.
Wow! Are your “opens up the possibility,” and your “It is quite possible,” reasonable suspicions or whatever you expect they are, or constructive in some other facts supported manner I am not quite grasping? IOW, aren’t there plenty of places to present such speculative opinions, and how do those
places distinguish themselves?
Once all information is allowed to be discovered and released, one will see by the blank papers, missing audio and visual tapes have been
tampered with already.
Blacked out lines, missing bullets, pieces of concrete, bodies all already in the ground, including everyone directly involved in the worlds greatest mystery.
Make no mistake, this is not a conspiracy.
Whether one wants to believe it is in the best interest of everyone involved, LBJ, the FBI, CIA,SECRET SERVICE, THE MOB, RUSSIA, CASTRO, THE DOUBTING THOMAS FAMILY, THE INNER GOVERNMENT AND FINALLY THOSE WHO WILL COME BEFORE AND AFTER US WILL NEVER FIND THE TRUTH!
Judas Iscariot was in charge of the money box, and questioned whether Jesus needed the costly perfume for his burial.
Everyone forgets Jesus knew who his assassin was and dismissed him.
When Judas realized he had no money but that his m/o was to get money, he then followed through with selling out his Revealer before others! Once Judas realized he had no where to go and no where to hide, he through the money back at the ones who paid him to get rid of the trouble maker. Yes, with the dirty deed done, they felt cursed themselves and said, get rid of the price to pay for eliminating the problem.
Now as the files open up and those responsible for helping load the instrument of destruction, have to live with the shame of realizing that one person can’t control everyone!!!
Where does all this fluff and stuff leave us with when the smell and the smoke clears away. Just this, there is a price we all have to pay.
When the Sun rises on that fateful day before God and Men, we will
see the shadow that is cast, and as we look down at the carbon copy of ourselves, we will see that nothing is aligned.
Something is amiss, were afraid of the reality that is revealed on that day of judgement, that we all our without the grace that God made us with, we lack the perfection we once were given by him.
A man walks on the path of redemption, and only God will say at that time, your judgement is here!
Will he forgive and forget?
New evidence since JFK’s assassination is the fact that out of 50 states 6 out of 9 Presidents including all 5 of the Republican Presidents had or were made President by a President that had as their home state one of the states the Kennedy’s were killed in Texas or California. Not a coincidence but a pattern and it would have continued to 7 out of 10 when the last brother, Massachusetts Senator Edward Kennedy died in Massachusetts, the home state of the next President, if he had won, ex-Governor of Massachusetts Mitt Romney.
There was great concern that the Florida election controversy was part of a conspiracy to steal the Presidency and make G. W. President because it happened in the home state of his brother, the Governor of Florida, Governor Jeb Bush. There should be just as much concern that the Kennedy home state coincidences were part of a conspiracy to steal the Presidency to make the next President President and then cover it up by controlling the City, State and Federal governments. Is that why G. W’s now in Dallas with his Presidential Library and Jeb is running for President to preside over the 2017 release of the Warren Commission files that may include evidence of his fathers participation with the CIA then?
Would the Republicans investigate the Republicans of their possible participation in the cover-up of the murder of a President and his brother running for President rather than an Ambassador in Bengahzi by terrorists?
I have always wondered why any grand-conspirators would conveniently leave behind a trail of evidence marked ‘top secret, not to be opened by the good guys until 2017?’ Especially if they have previously been so ruthless with destruction of witnesses and evidence.
He was in the building. The steps are inside the building footprint, so he was right in saying he was within the building. And if you accept what he says about being in the building, do you accept his statement “I’m just a patsy'”
With all of the nonsense about the so-called Prayer Man. Look. What is wrong with this picture. Let’s spell it out:
Ok. You win. Oswald IS THE PRAYER MAN. And, in the seconds after Kennedy was shot Oswald decided to run…that’s right…run into the building to grab a bottle of soda and then hustle out the back stairs to come down into the offices to see Mrs. Reid and then SHE HAD TO TELL HIM THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS SHOT AT.
Gee, I would be thinking that Oswald would have gone ‘assassin/info hunting’ like Shelley did. Oh…and I almost forgot. He was too busy acting like Husain Bolt running up and down the stairs just ahead of the police, and the ‘infamous’ Girls on the Stairs’. That must be the explanation.
Lastly. Funny how all Oswald would have had to do was get one person to see him out there. Stop the nonsense!
Bill:
What you are saying is it can’t be Oswald because you are stipulating that all recorded testimony is accurate and irrefutable. It’s not. Pictures however, are.
One thing that has been proven through Sean Murphy’s process of elimination: If it is a TSBD employee, then it is Oswald. Since you’ve taken the liberty of stipulating all witness reports are accurate, I’ll stipulate it is not a stranger, since no strangers were seen in the building that day except for one who went in the front entrance, used the toilet, and left. Therefore, it is a picture of Oswald when shots fired. Once that is established, one must start from there.
The witnesses’ reports are hearsay from the FBI and the DPD. As for the WC, witnesses were filtered, prepped, and none who did not support Oswald as the man, Oswald as the only man, were called to the inner sanctum.
However, pictures don’t lie. When everyone is able to be identified except for one solitary person, that omission is a glaring one. Especially when no one knew the picture even existed for near to 50 years and the person looks like Oswald in build and hairline.
Let’s all be patient, there will be more about this in the future. Certainly a recent finding such as this one presents an excellent reason to reopen the case.
Hello Bill – we meet again. 🙂
Except that Oswald had already got his coke before he came downstairs. You can see it in the Allen photos of the steps after the assassination along with his lunch bag. Right next to where Oswald was standing.
Bill, I hate to tell you this but the second floor lunch room encounter never happened.
Baker encountered Oswald on the TSBD steps (as reported in the first day newspaper reports) as he (Baker) entered the building. Oswald then lingered for a few seconds having a chat with BWF.
He then went inside and had the various encounters where people saw him. Did he encounter Mrs Reid – we don’t know.
Oswald then hung around for 10 minutes until Shelley said he could go.
Please read Sean Murphy’s thread on Ed Forum and have a look at Stand Dane’s photo enhancements on EF and ROKC.
Ditto what Vanessa said above, quote, “I nominate Sean Murphy’s research into the Prayer Man figure.
1. Because no witness on the steps, and no official investigation into the assassination, has ever identified this person. Yet he can be seen in the Weigman and Darnell films;
2. Because he is standing where Oswald said he was at the time of the assassination ‘having lunch out front with Bill Shelley; and
3. Shelley placed himself on the top step of the TSBD at the time of the assassination.
4. QED. :)”
unquote
“2. Because he is standing where Oswald said he was at the time of the assassination ‘having lunch out front with Bill Shelley”
Actually, that’s an interpretation of Fritz’s cryptic handwritten notes, not a direct quote. Why rely on that when you can hear Oswald himself saying where he was, on YouTube:
Reporter: Did you shoot the President?
Oswald: I work in that building.
Reporter: Were you in the building at the time?
Oswald: Naturally if I work in that building, yes sir.
Okay Jean, but I think this is the first (and only time) you have taken the words of the official Presidential assassin over the Dallas Police Department.
Why is that?
Was this the only time Oswald was telling the truth that day or was he also telling the truth when he said he was a patsy and didn’t shoot anyone?
Please explain. 🙂
And Jean, even if you want to interpret Fritz’s notes as just ‘out front with Shelley’ then we are still talking about where Oswald was at the time of the assassination.
And Shelley says he was on the TSBD steps at that time.
Fritz’s WC testimony confirms that Oswald told him he was with the other employees and saw the excitement.
If he wasn’t with the employees who were outside how could he ‘see’ any ‘excitement’?
The autopsy before the Official Autopsy leads to the question of where are the records of that where wounds were dissected & bullets & bullet fragments removed.
It is intriguing to think where this document might be over 50 years after the Assasination.
Will it turn up at an auction in the effects of someone who has died as happpened with the AF1 Tapes.
It is also noteworthy that the Parkland doctors did not notice the back wound.
The Coverup had already begun and some people wanted that body back at Bethseda to control what was known about the medical evidence.
It seems the Bethseda doctors wrote what they were told to write in the Official Autopsy report and were sworn to secrecy about anything else.
IMO President Kennedy got a proper autopsy but the details were cherry picked for what could be useful to those carrying out the Coverup.
President John F. Kennedy deserved better than that.
i saw pictures of the limo back at Detroit to have the windshield replaced,
their was bullit lodged in the upper fram whear the sun visor on passenger
side. It waas in molding. The hoel in the windshield and in the moldng accounts for 2 more shots.
I agree with those who say that Prayer Man is the most important piece of evidence in recent times.
If we type the word “TAPE”, we will learn that it appears 776 times in the JFK Collection database:
http://www.nara.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/0?path=jfkcnew.txt&id=demo&pass=&OK=OK
Upon closer scrutiny, we find two relevant records:
RIF 180-10084-10472
RIF 178-10003-10255
The fist one is the official transcript of the tape.
http://patriot.net/~ramon/jfk/Only-a-Transcript.png
You can also type “SOUND RECORDING” in the “DOCUMENT TYPE” field. There are 88 hits.
Here’s an interesting CIA memo from DDCI Carter to DCI McCone on 29-Oct-62. The views he expresses about the peaceful resolution of the Missile Crisis were likely prevalent at Langley and the Pentagon. http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/files/document_conversions/5829/CIA-RDP80B01676R001300040058-3.pdf
Hands down, the most important evidence of a conspiracy came from the civil case, HUNT v. LIBERTY LOBBY, wherein under sworn testimony CIA operatives and agents admitted their involvement in the JFK assassination plot.
I’m no lawyer, but I’d have to say true in regards to any actual legal action regarding the case. It is well worth revisiting.
I nominate Sean Murphy’s research into the Prayer Man figure.
1. Because no witness on the steps, and no official investigation into the assassination, has ever identified this person. Yet he can be seen in the Weigman and Darnell films;
2. Because he is standing where Oswald said he was at the time of the assassination ‘having lunch out front with Bill Shelley; and
3. Shelley placed himself on the top step of the TSBD at the time of the assassination.
4. QED. 🙂
Here’s an interesting CIA memo from DDCI Carter to DCI McCone on 29-Oct-62. The views he expresses about the peaceful resolution of the Missile Crisis were likely prevalent at Langley and the Pentagon. https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/books-and-monographs/Cuban%20Missile%20Crisis1962.pdf
The AF 1 transcript is an important piece of new evidence. The new info is quite intriguing about LeMay coming into Washington from Canada.
The tapes also tell us “the body was choppered over” to Bethesda Navel Hospital.
This opens up the possibility there was an autopsy before the Official Autopsy.
It is quite possible that wounds were dissected, and bullets & bullet fragments were removed from the dead President.
It is quite disturbing to go over this ground again but that is the nature of an unsolved murder.
Jeez Jeff – of course it’s Sean Murphy’s research on LHO’s whereabouts during the assassination and the Weigman and Darnell films that confirm Oswald was on the steps of the TSBD.
See the “Oswald leaving the TSBD” thread on the Ed Forum.
🙂
I second that Vanessa.
To read more about Prayer Man besides at EF I suggest to check out the many many threads about this enigma at ROKC
http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/show/6611045-jfk
Ramon Herrera, Well stated. I would add that if Oswald was the intended patsy, meaning his presence inside the TSBD in the seconds following the shots that killed Kennedy was essential – and meant to draw attention from the actual marksmen, and that he was meant to be arrested – how would his presence at the entrance of the building at 411 Elm serve that role? The (perhaps well intentioned) attempt to exonerate Owald by placing him on the steps of the TSBD at the time of the assassination has served nothing other than introducing confusion into the investigation. Oswald could not fulfill his role as patsy if he was photographed on the steps of the TSBD at the time the shots were fired.
This was not an amateur operation, so why introduce amateur theories into the equation? I appreciate the “prayer man’ argument may have been well meaning, but it has not served to resolve the case; in fact it has been a diversion.
Oh dear Leslie, say it ‘ain’t so.
You know the respect I have for you so I have to ask have you read Sean Murphy’s research on the Ed Forum and seen some of the enhancements done by Stan Dane and Bart Kamp on RoKC?
I would be happy to discuss any point of SM’s research that you find unconvincing.
The fact is Fritz’s notes state that Oswald told Fritz that at the time of the assassination he was out in front having lunch with Bill Shelley.
Bill Shelley was standing on the top landing of the TSBD steps at the time of the assassination.
Shelley, Lovelady, Buell Wesley Frazier and Prayer Man can all be seen standing on the steps in the Weigman and Darnell films.
The FBI had every TSBD employee state that they did not see any strangers around the TSBD that day.
Yet in their WC testimony not one single person on the steps mentioned a stranger standing in the corner. A man who is standing behind the glass door to the building in clear sight of all on the steps and all those going back into the building (as can be seen in Weigman/Darnell).
Crazy as it may sound Leslie, that person is LHO.
The people that carried out the assassination were able to kill the US President on a public street and, frankly, have gotten away with it for 50+ years. The small matter of Oswald appearing on the TSBD steps probably barely put a break in their stride.
Thanks B.Kamp. Don’t I know you from somewhere? 🙂
C’mon Jefferson, it’s time to focus on Prayer Man on here.
From what I hear RoKC are about to make some definitive findings on the Prayer Man figure.
🙂
I don’t know who Prayer Man or what you are referring to. If you want me to write about something, you need to tell me about it and provide the evidence why I should care.
Jeff,
“Prayer Man” is a fuzzy blur from a photo blown up beyond reasonable recognition. In my view it is a myth as dubious as the “Doorman” being Oswald when it is clearly Lovelady.
Oswald in my view has a firm alibi as it is, as him being on the 2nd floor lunch room when confronted by Truly & officer Baker.
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Jeff,
have a look at the EF
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354 Prepare for a long read.
Furthermore ROKC is filled to the brim with it as well.
http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/show/6611045-jfk
I am writing an e-book on Prayer Man which I hope to release in October for anyone who is interested to read all digested info about this matter. It will be free to d/l.
Hi Jeff
I was wondering if you knew about Sean Murphy’s research or not.
It’s a long read but it’s best to start on this thread on the Education Forum
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=fa305ed75a70252938a13c66fab3460e&showtopic=20354
If the link doesn’t work then it’s the “Oswald leaving the TSBD” thread on the Education Forum.
And then the link that Bart Kamp has provided above on RoKC.
I’d make the case myself but Sean Murphy does it a lot better than me.
I am however prepared to argue any point of the whole Prayer Man case – ad infinitum if necessary, if you want to. 🙂
Just for you, Jeff. This from the Wegman or Darnell films. I can’t make you care, though.
http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2013/08/oswald-leaving-tsbd.html
So does Jefferson’s silence indicate:
a) He could care less about PM?;
b) He couldn’t care less about PM?
c) Is this a trick question for American English speakers and er…English English speakers?
I don’t know what PM is.
Hi Jeff,
Here is a link to a very concise summary of Prayer Man (PM) information:
http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13238786-prayer-man-?page=last
Hi Vanessa, The Oswald on the steps photographic indicator (known as PM) is a highly disruptive concept that finds much resistance among establishment CT’rs not willing to risk carefully groomed credibility upon. It’s understandable. Their effectiveness in advancing the cause while making a living is at stake, however once it is safe to do so, they will gladly join in, I’m sure.
The fact is, it looks a lot like LHO. More so in recent months when considering the image as a man who is slender like LHO, with arms crossed, as typical for LHO, and of course with the hairline and posture (right shoulder low is something of a LHO signature pose). In addition to this compelling image, Sean Murphy argued forcefully for it being LHO through a studied process of elimination, which is what one must follow carefully in the thread on Education Forum.
In considering a reality where LHO is pictured on the steps while shots fired, one must account for the Baker encounter on the 2nd floor (actually reject it) and requires a complete remodel of the family of CT constructs surrounding the TSBD and taken for granted to this time. It’s something only “young” Turks with less at stake, have the capacity for.
“confirm Oswald was on the steps of the TSBD.”
=================
Hi Vanessa:
I find all that line of inquiry very hard to believe, for a very simple reason.
Why on earth would Lee claim that he was alone, eating, with ZERO witnesses (aka alibi), when the truth (“I was outside, on the steps”) could have been confirmed by dozens?
Lee was obviously ordered to stay inside (“and bring curtain rods”). Can you imagine a dozen photographs of him outside, at the precise moment of the shooting? Years and years of preparing him as a “sleeper” only to blow the whole plot with that silly detail?
Never forget that the plotters were the very best in the world, only matched by their Soviet counterparts.
They correctly assumed that the two facts:
(a) Lunch time.
(b) A president of the US passing by.
would pretty much empty the building and Lee was dutifully following precise instructions. Whether they were issued by “Maurice Bishop” or somebody else, that’s another story.
Hi Ramon
And yet we can see a figure in Weigman and Darnell that only gets more Oswaldian the better the scans get. Same hair, same height, same shirt.
This is not Billy Lovelady and the Ralph Cinque nonsense.
Lovelady and Oswald can be seen in the same frame in Darnell together.
What does this say about the plotters and their competency? It says it didn’t matter what the patsy did or said because the plotters were in a position to make it all go away.
Researchers have only discovered the PM figure in the last couple of years so the plotters plan has worked well enough up to now.
My new piece of evidence is my recent observation about the claim that the reason JFK’s head went back and to the left was because of the nerves in his spine being stimulated by a shot to the back of his head. Well, millions of people in war have been shot in the back of the head and the other day i saw a group of prisoners lined up on their knees and must have been a dozen or so and the were all shot in the back of their heads simultaneously and they all fell forward and not one had there head pushed back toward the bullet.
I Think of all the people the Nazis shot, if it was true that a shot to the back of the head caused a brain to spine reaction than the way it would have been done would be to have them stand with their backs to the mass grave with the firing Squad shooting them from across the grave pits so that they would fall into the mass graves without anyone pushing the bodies in the graves. But the opposite is how it is done as the Nazis and other War Criminals did the evil deeds as efficiently as possible. So the victims are placed facing the grave and are shot in the back of the head and the body falls forward not backward. So the next time you hear them talk about the spinal reaction ask them if they ever witnessed this or is this only when JFK is shot.
Discussion about How Oswald knew Shelley was out front: Two pretty straight forward answers that not have been addressed of postulated upon.
1. Since Oswald was in the 6th Floor window setting up his ‘nest’, he could have easily leaned out and see Mr. Shelley stand around out there as easily as others saw him standing up there.
2. After descending the stairs and then seeing Baker and Truly on the 2nd Floor…he cut across the 2nd floor and exited the building, after learning from Mrs. Reid, that Kennedy had been shot at (his first knowledge of the shooting would have been from her…) by walking right out the front door where he simply saw Shelly standing out there looking around like everyone else.
This is just common sense. Even Shelly states that he was out front for x period of time after the shooting. There was nobody concerned with people looking out those windows, Jarmin’s group, Elsie Dorman’s group, or…sadly, LHO sitting there waiting for his target to drive past.
So how did he know Shelley was out front? Easy: He SAW him as he was going about his plan to kill JFK. Peace.
One small problem, Bill. The steps of the TSBD are recessed into the front of the building. Looking down from the 6th floor, you might get a glimpse of the bottom step if you leaned far enough out the window.
According to Shelley’s testimony, he and Lovelady remained on the steps for some time following the shots.
If you could provide a photo showing Shelley on the bottom step, your theory might actually get somewhere.
What’s the most important piece of new JFK assassination evidence
The refusal of JFKFACTS to Highlight and Analyze the Lies told by
Col. Boris T Pash at Jan 7 1976 testimony to Church Committee and the Lies told by Col.Robert Ellis Jones testimony HSCA Apr. 20 1978
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1430&relPageId=10
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/unpub_testimony/Jones_4-20-78/html/jones_0001a.htm
“What is the most important piece of JFK assassination evidence to surface in the last 5 years”?
Some of it is right on this thread in the commentary of the Warren Commission defenders; that is that the cover up is still being maintained by true believers in the nonsense asserted by Authority.
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So who but someone supercalifragilistic on ballistics would know the way to make tricky ballistics would be to put a 38 special cylinder on a 38 regular pistol so that the rifling in the barrel would be touch & go on the bullet head’s way out?
I don’t think Ozzy was that hep about guns and ammo.
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Evidence as a Multidisciplinary Subject
http://www.docs.lakotalaw.org/JFK/Evidence+as+a+Multidisciplinary+Subject.pdf
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Dear Willy – I concur with your post today regarding the Z film. Personally speaking, I have no tolerance for charlatans or non-fact based analysis. Rest assured that the zeros and ones I referred to were not about computer animations. Glad you’re keeping an open mind (for now). 🙂
Is this the ‘the most important piece of new JFK assassination evidence?’
“The honest answer is that the CIA and FBI knew more about Oswald than they volunteered, but not as much as they should have; they never recognized him as a potentially dangerous individual. Considering that he had never exhibited any known acts of violence that doesn’t seem inappropriate, although with 20/20 hindsight it can be criticized as negligence.
In addition, the CIA was striving to protect sensitive intelligence sources, such as the surveillance techniques at the Cuban Embassy. How do you think they got that intelligence? Somebody at the Embassy had access to conversations that took place there; as soon as this info came out that individual was compromised and that conduit for information ceased.”
Photon , May 6, 2015 at 7:55 pm ,JFK facts.
So…. Reading a little between the lines, is this the official line in 2015:
The CIA/FBI were potentially negligent in their analysis/surveillance of the ‘lone nut’ Oswald. The point at which this was known was immediately after Oswald was identified as the killer. . In addition the reason for the cover-up was the protection of intelligence sources, later compromised.
As of 2015 this has not been formally admitted. An on-going cover-up is in place, at least involving the FBI/CIA
There is now only one reason left for a cover-up; the only reason for an on-going cover-up is protection of the intelligence services from facing charges/vilification for negligence.
I think it is entirely plausible that this is the current official line (although not for publication in the main-stream media) and I thank Photon for that.
“There is now only one reason left for a cover-up; the only reason for an on-going cover-up is protection of the intelligence services from facing charges/vilification for negligence.”~Eddy
Seems so Eddy, a revetment, a modified limited hangout; “Whoops! We F’d up!!” It’s an old stand-by, old as the hills.
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I find it a very interesting explanation in that you could say it matches the indisputable facts, but no more.
If the Zapruder film is proven to be altered (I would say that is possible), if ‘prayer man’ is proven to be Oswald (also possible) and New Orleans/Mexico research moves forward (almost inevitable)the ‘official line’ might need amending again.
Eddy – thank you for mentioning the possibility of Z-film alteration. People can hair-split words, criticize authors, and mock speakers, but that contributes nothing to serious research.
If the film was altered, and that possibility does exist, then that could be newly discovered evidence and a game changer. New and more intense Z film research may be productive, regardless of those who say that alteration is/was impossible. Only those with a dubious agenda would argue against additional examination.
We’ll have more to report on this (fact based and unbiased), as we have some serious university based engineering departments working with the zeros and ones. So far, the numbers don’t add up, but it’s very complex and it’s far too early to draw any conclusions.
“New and more intense Z film research may be productive, regardless of those who say that alteration is/was impossible. Only those with a dubious agenda would argue against additional examination.”~Robert Paul
I would like to say that I am not at all against intense Z film research. I am in fact all for it, as long as it actually addresses the real issues. As long as those who are doing this research actually know something about real film, and do not confine their attention of playing with computer simulations that have nothing to do with real world film; I refer to Healy and is utterly naive and misguided efforts.
I will also point out that there are well known and infamous charlatans who have been involved in promoting this alteration hypothesis. The false arguments they have already made must be put in perspective as well.
One more thing this old adage may be popular; “Anything Is Possible”__but is it True?
I would assert that there are boundaries to what is and is not possible in the physical world. I will assert that taking a metaphysical and esoteric mindset, and approaching these issue from a theological perspective will lead you into the fantastical, to magical thinking.
Lastly I will point out that Doug Horne keeps introducing what he calls new and exciting research, but is yet to provide the work he claimed was conclusive more than five years ago now. Where and who are these dozens of “Hollywood Experts” he claimed were on board with this so called “patch” on the back of Kennedy’s head?
And where is the errata promised to Clint Bradford regarding Mantik’s Mistakes* in misrepresenting Palamara’s witness testimonies, acknowledged as far back as July 1998 by Mantik and Fetzer?
I happen to know Fetzer is still promoting those known errors as true in 2014.
*See: http://www.jfk-info.com/mantik-1.htm
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There’s really no one left in the intelligence services, today, who could be harmed by any aspersions cast on this or that agency.
There is, however, a family name left whose current candidate for the US presidency could be harmed by revelations that his dad murdered a former sitting president.
Well, I should’ve said it seems unlikely there would by anyone left in the intelligence services who would be harmed one way or the other by something an agency did 50 years ago, and that a coverup lasting for generations would be more likely to relate to interests that persist across generations. If “the CIA” was blurrily involved in a 1963 assassination plot, that’s barely newsworthy today, and many Americans thought that from day one–long before any JFK conspiracy tomes. Yet another story of rogue agents in the 1960s would hardly pose a threat to today’s agency. A specific CIA agent’s involvement, however, whose sons’ political careers could be damaged, is another matter. I personally found the recent spate of Johnson-did-it books a bit over the top, even though the evidence for his complicity is significant. I do think Johnson is complicit–I just don’t think he was top dog, and my bet is that this last-ditch effort to direct attention his way is purposeful and timely.
All those who you allege f’d up are dead now, so why would the government still suppress information?
It’s obviously much bigger than this.
I think GHWB was integral to the assassination, and that that information would harm his son’s presidential run (and expose the family business to legal action).
As others here have aptly stated, if LHO was part of a team, but not the shooter, then his handler could have told him that the plan had changed and he must leave the area – pronto. That’s just one of many possible scenarios for Oswald to leave the TSBD.
Leaving the scene of a crime (along with numerous other employees), while curious, does not support Photon’s statement that, “The only logical answer is that he was the shooter. It is simple .It is definitive . And it cannot be refuted.”
I’d hate to present that ludicrous logic and its self-contrived conclusion to a jury.
If Oswald was a member of a team, not the shooter what was he doing in the TSBD in the first place-cheer leading?
How could a “handler ” even reach him- there were no cell phones at the time, he didn’t have a walkie-talkie, he didn’t know semaphore.
Look at the gyrations that you have to go through and the illogical assumptions that you accept just to deal with a simple problem-Oswald was already on a bus trying to leave the area before JFK even reached Parkland.Before anybody except a few witnesses knew that JFK was even wounded. But Oswald even hailed a cab and used some of his little remaining money to get away from Dealey Plaza. Why?
We know that his alibi Skelley never saw him after 12 noon and told no one to go home. So why did Oswald lie about that?
The obvious, most logical answer was that Oswald was fleeing the scene of a crime-before anybody who worked at the TSBD even knew that a crime had been committed .
Who’s Skelly? I’ve been reading of Catherine Taaffe and June Cobb.
As far as member of a team, not the shooter, why in the TSBD.
Probably, as the patsy, maybe he cut off the electricity during the assassination so the elevators would be stuck on the fifth floor too until Truly and Baker started up.
As it was a conspiracy it is likely Oswald was involved simply because of his presence, but not as a shooter. He was not qualified for that capacity in such an operation.
Most likely he was in the TSBD because he was placed there by his CIA handler.
William Shelley, not Skelley. Over aggressive spell check.
Oswald claimed that he told him to go home.
He stated that he never saw Oswald after 12 noon.
Photon’s Paradox stands
No, it doesn’t Photon – your paradox is kaput.
If Shelley didn’t see Oswald after 12.00 and according to the WC Oswald was in the sniper’s nest from 11.50am – 12.33pm then how did Oswald know that Shelley was out in front (as per Fritz’s notes).
The most reasonable explanation is that Oswald wasn’t in the sniper’s nest but somewhere else. Somewhere where he could see Shelley who was standing on the TSBD steps.
Photon – his handler(s) could have been anywhere in the building or on the street below. LOH himself could have realized that something substantial changed and decided to flee before the cops arrived in mass. My previous point is simple – his fleeing is not proof of his guilt as the shooter. I do agree with you that his behavior is odd and at (the very least) curious. I hope that you agree that curious behavior is not proof of guilt, maybe involvement, maybe even more that, but not something I’d describe as “definitive and non-refutable.” I know you’re smarter than that.
Sure, the likelihood is that Oswald was in some way involved. That doesn’t mean he fired any shots. With all his associations and connections to intelligence and mob individuals, he likely knew what was going on. But doesn’t preclude him being made a patsy. In fact, the likelihood is that one of the team would be framed to cover up what actually happened, and he was that unlucky guy.
Why are people still arguing was so plain as every morning when the sun rises and birds sing, and the fact is that our government killed the President elected by the people, and took away a piece of our democracy which has been continually eroding ever since?
Please consider. Baker mentioned nothing of the break room encounterin his DPD report on 11/22. Truly didn’t mention it until after discussions with the DPD and FBI. Did it happen? Another report speaks of Truly seeing Oswald in they front foyer as he and Baker went in. Oswald said he directed someone to the phone there at the time.
Consider this also. Oswald left the TSBD because he figured out something was wrong, maybe he was being framed. He first went West away from the TSBD to a bus stalled in traffic. Then into a cab past his rooming house to go back change clothes and pick up his pistol. On to the Texas Theater to meet his contact. Not just a theory, but at least somewhat fact base.
There is no evidence that anyone saw LHO “exiting the building.” The evidence reveals that a TSBD secretary, Mrs. Robert Reid, saw Oswald on the second floor near her office area several minutes after the shooting. According to Mrs. Reid’s WC testimony, she had gone outside to watch the motorcade. She stood directly in front of the TSBD next to Roy Truly and William Shelley. After the shots were fired she told Truly that it sounded like the shots came from the TSBD. Truly said he thought the shots came from the grassy area near the railroad underpass. Despite her belief that someone from inside the TSBD had fired shots, she went back inside the building and walked up the front stairs to her office on the second floor. She saw Oswald walking very slowly through the area, holding a coke in his right hand. (III WCH 279). She told Oswald that the President had been shot. (III WCH 274). She apparently had no concern that Oswald may have been the shooter. Moments before Oswald had been confronted in the second floor lunchroom near a soda machine by Office Baker, with his gun drawn, and Roy Truly. After Truly vouched for Oswald as a building employee, they hurriedly ran off, continuing their building search. It would not be unreasonable for a TSBD employee like Oswald, knowing (from his encounter with Baker) that the police were searching the building for someone, and after being told by Mrs. Reid that the President had been shot, to conclude from these facts that it was likely that there would be no further work that Friday afternoon.
In fact, as revealed by Warren Commission Exhibit 1381, a compilation of statements obtained by the FBI from all persons believed to have been in the TSBD on 11/22/63, many, if not most, of the people working in the building that day left the building early and did not return to it that day. A TSBD secretary, Carolyn Arnold, left the TSBD at 12:25 and “never returned to this building on that date.” Virginia H. Barnum tried to return to the building at 12:40 but could not get in, so she left work for the rest of the day. Doris Burns, an employee of Macmillan Co. on the 3rd Floor of the TSBD, left work at 2:30 and did not return that day. Gloria Calvery, an employee of Southwestern Publishing Co. on the 3rd Floor of the TSBD, left work at 1:30 and went home. Jane Berry, an employee of Scott-Forsman in the TSBD stated that, after the assassination, all Scott-Forsman employees were dismissed from work early that day at about 3:00 p.m. So, if Oswald believed, as he claimed, that there was likely to be no work after the assassination, his conclusion was essentially correct, as most of the building employees either left work early of their own accord or were allowed to leave work early that day.
So, why did LHO leave work early that day? “The only logical answer is that he was the shooter.” Really? What about all the other building employees who also left work early or did not return after the shooting? Were they also “the shooter?”
Richard,
“In fact, as revealed by Warren Commission Exhibit 1381, a compilation of statements obtained by the FBI from all persons believed to have been in the TSBD on 11/22/63, many, if not most, of the people working in the building that day left the building early and did not return to it that day…”
Here’s what makes Oswald different from all the other workers: he was the only employee who had been inside the building when the shooting occurred who left before the building was sealed off. That is, he was the only worker who could have been the shooter who left the area almost immediately.
Carolyn Arnold exited the building at 12:25, i.e., before the motorcade arrived. Like many others who went outside to see the President she was locked out when the building was sealed off a few minutes after the shooting and therefore couldn’t return to work. Everyone still inside at that time waited until their bosses or the police dismissed them.
By the time Ms. Calvery left at 1 o’clock Oswald had already taken a bus and cab to Oak Cliff, by 2:30 he was at the police station under arrest for killing a cop and the Scott-Forsman workers were still at the Depository.
CE1381 is here:
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=662&tab=page
In an interview with journalist Earl Golz in 1978, Carolyn Arnold said she saw Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom as she was on her way out of the depository to watch the presidential motorcade. She did not speak to him but recognized him clearly. She left the building at 12:25 PM (the actual time the motorcade was scheduled to pass through Dealey Plaza)http://22november1963.org.uk/carolyn-arnold-witness-oswald
“CTs point to anomalies (oddities, things that “look funny”) in the record as though they are clues, but clues lead to a story that makes sense. These don’t. That indicates, imo, that they are meaningless “noise” or simply coincidences.”~Jean Davison – May 28, 2015 at 10:17 am
. . . . .
“but clues lead to a story that makes sense”~Jean
That’s right Jean, but you spin this backwards because the “things that look funny” are facts that don’t make sense as far as the official story, that is why they are called “anomalies” because they do not make sense with the official narrative. This is the reason apologists for the official narrative try to hand-wave these facts that don’t add up to the story told by the official narrative. This is why you fall back to Coincidence Theory and call it meaningless noise.
And this is where your side runs into the hard wall of the science of statistics, wherein it is simply statistically impossible for so many coincidences to be true. This is why the Lone-Nut Theory is magical thinking; because it rejects the majority of data, or turns it backwards as you do with this very general concept of investigative philosophy. This is also why it is so overwhelmingly aggravating to read your rhetorical jitterbug nonsense.
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Arnold and Barnum weren’t in the building at the time of the assassination.Arnold left before the assassination, Barnum had left the building at 11:45 to lunch with her husband and did not return until 12:40, ten minutes after the assassination. Both were excused from work.
The others you mention left well after it was reported that JFK had been shot or killed.
Mrs Reid’s words to Oswald: ” Oh,the President has been been shot, but maybe they didn’t hit him”- nobody in the TSBD knew JFK’s condition at the time. She also said that it was unusual to see Oswald there and that he was already walking out the building. Why did Oswald have a Coke in his hand when he drank Dr. Pepper?
Why when told that the President of the U.S. had possibly been shot did the political junkie Oswald just mumble a response and move on?
“Why did Oswald have a Coke in his hand when he drank Dr. Pepper?”~Photon
The Dr. Pepper machine was out. “You can’t always get what you want – but if you try sometimes you just might find you get what you need.”
“Why when told that the President of the U.S. had possibly been shot did the political junkie Oswald just mumble a response and move on?”~Photon
Why do you ask mundane questions that could be answered in literally hundreds of different ways?
Like, Oswald was used to drinking Dr Pepper, he ended up getting a Coke because his favorite brand was out. Coke is more carbonated than Dr Pepper, and just as he was told the president had been shot, he had to burp, so he shuffled away quickly as not to embarrass himself in front of a woman.
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Testimony of Bonnie Ray Williams: ” Mr. Ball: Before you went upstairs,did you get anything to drink? Mr. Williams : I got a small bottle of Dr.Pepper from the Dr. Pepper machine.”
Willy, why make stuff up? By the way, the witnesses that saw Oswald with his Coke who actually looked at it noted that the bottle was full.
It’s quite simple. Oswald couldn’t make it to the basement were the Dr. Pepper machine was located, but he was able reach the Coke machine in time to get a bottle and look natural.But he never drank it,apparently.
Of course it is totally impossible that Bonnie Ray Williams got the last bottle in Dr Pepper the machine.Lol
The two machines weren’t that far apart Photon.
Who knows if Oswald didn’t like some variety once in awhile?
How can you make this into such a big deal?
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Willy, you made up the claim that the Dr. Pepper machine was empty.
I presented documented proof that it wasn’t within an hour of the assassination -when virtually everybody in the TSBD was out watching the motorcade prior to lunch.
Let’s carry this further.You think that Oswald ate lunch on the second floor lunchroom during the motorcade. What was he doing with a full bottle of Coke ( which he didn’t drink) after eating his lunch?
“Willy, you made up the claim that the Dr. Pepper machine was empty.”~Photon
I’ll play your stupid game Photon, prove the Dr. Pepper machine wasn’t empty.
It’s quite simple, yes it is, it is quite simple you are making a mountain out of a molehill; grasping at straws because Oswald was known to be downstairs so quickly after the shots were fired.
You are running this into the ground because you have NOTHING to prove Oswald was in that window on the 6th floor or ever fired that rifle – and as it turns out he never had possession of that rifle – the whole story is bogus.
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Let us dispense with this “Coke” v “Dr. Pepper” nonsense right now.
I was a teenager in this era; 1963. The term “Coke” was popularly used to speak to ‘bottled soda pop’ in those days. It was the most popular brand of bottled cola at the time.
So it is frankly absurd to claim that someone saying Oswald had a Coke in his hand necessarily meant that he actually had that specific brand of bottled pop.
This is another of Photon’s molehill arguments that have zero bearing and make zero rational sense. It is much like him calling his non sequitur argument a “paradox; it’s simply BS.
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But you can’t answer it, even with a false statement claiming that the Dr. Pepper machine was empty.
Oswald told the police that he left the TSBD because he thought that it was going to be closed for the rest of the day. He left before anybody else in the building knew that anybody was shot-I have documented that over and over, even in the face of false claims and inaccurate statements countered by documented testimony. There is not a single statement on record of anybody who worked at the TSBD claiming that they saw JFK or Connally wounded. The testimony even of people who are claimed to know JFK was hit is rife with questions like “what happened” and ” I don’t know”.
So why was Oswald banging on the door of a bus ( not standing at bus stop) after a seven block walk within 8 minutes of the shooting? Why did he get off to take a cab when he was virtually broke-while people at the TSBD were still unsure of what had happened? And yet he THOUGHT that they were going to close down for the day.WHY?
He knew. Nobody else did. Nobody else COULD know.
“But you can’t answer it”~Photon
There is nothing to answer. All that can be done is to point out that your questions are delusional.
You say:”even with a false statement claiming that the Dr. Pepper machine was empty.”
You cannot prove the Dr. Pepper machine was NOT empty. So accusing me of making a false statement is absurd.
You are expressing confirmation bias Photon. You are convinced Oswald is guilty, so every little thing you think you know he did is viewed by you as the acts only a guilty man would do. There could be hundreds of innocent interpretations for any of the things you point out. You imply desperation by using the term “banging on a bus door”, when there are very few other ways to get a driver’s attention if the doors have already shut…
I am not going to play your game anymore and pick apart each absurdity you make point by point.
I find you to be either foolish or disingenuous, and it is futile to argue with someone like you.
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Richard
Ever wonder how Mrs. Reid got back upstairs so quickly?
Victoria Adams “the girl on the stairs” in the TSBD testified to the WC she didnt see LOH descend the stairs from the SIXTH FLOOR after 12:30.
She was a very important WITNESS. It cant be ignored.
Adams and some others were looking at the motorcade from the FOURTH FLOOR landing. They all told this story to the WC.
It is possible that LOH left the TSBD because he realized he was a PATSY.
It is also possible LOH have shot some diversionary shots.
IMO head shot & neck shot looked like they were shots from the front.
WC attorney David Belin told Adams in the midst of her testimony”I don’t believe a word you’re saying”. I bet he meant “You could be telling the truth, but our job is to hide the truth from anyone who implies Oswald didn’t do it”.
And lastly about Oswald: I suppose nobody finds it interesting that he poses with his rifle in the backyard photos, then denies he owns one, then denies the entire PO BOX story, then buttons up on the A. Hidell Card….lol.
The only real mystery left to solve in this case is the lie that Oswald promulgated when he was seen exiting the building. He claimed to have left work because their was a lot of excitement and that he didn’t think that there would be any work in the afternoon (or words similar).
Yet, the obvious but unasked question would be: How do you know Mr. Oswald? You didn’t see the parade and you were stopped an questioned by DPD Officer Baker, on the second floor about 1 minute after the shooting. Yet, you were seen exiting the building by the secretary of the building by no later than 12:33 pm (or two minutes after being stopped and held briefly by Baker).
So…Mr. Oswald: Why did you think there would be no more work that day????? Oh…..obvious answer: ‘Cuz I shot him’.
Bill I have been waiting for an answer to this question for two years.
For all of the forensic evidence that CTers ignore or claim is faked, I have yet to get a credible answer as to why he left the TSBD when nobody in the building even knew that JFK was wounded, let alone fatally-except the assassin, who saw the results through the 4x scope.
The only logical answer is that he was the shooter.It is simple .It is definitive . And it cannot be refuted.
There are plenty of WC skeptics, myself among them, who believe Oswald was mixed up in the assassination, but there’s no proof that he fired that rifle, and if he did, no proof that he was the only shooter. And assuming he was mixed up in it, there’s the question of whether his participation was witting or not. And BTW, all over Dallas that day offices closed and people went home very early because their bosses realized nobody was going to be able to do any work — most of them were too upset to concentrate on business themselves.
As to the following:
“The only logical answer is that he was the shooter.It is simple .It is definitive . And it cannot be refuted.”
That’s got more hot air than a late August Dallas afternoon. “It cannot be refuted,” indeed. IT CANNOT BE PROVED!!! No one ever has. “No one has ever been able to put him (Oswald) in the Texas School Book Depository with a rifle in his hand.” That was said by former Dallas Police Chief Jessie Currie in 1969. Now that cannot be refuted!
Oswald himself said that he was in the TSBD at the time of the shooting.
Photon:
That is perfectly okay. It only took Curry 6 years to figure out that LHO did not even have a gun in the TSBD. Oswald must have been one nutty, uneducated, deranged loner to figure out he shot and killed the president in the 8 seconds the WC claims the shooting needed, especially when it took a dullard like Curry 6 years to figure out LHO might not have been the shooter!
Really Photon?
It’s entirely plausible that Oswald, as an intelligence asset recruited to play a “need to know” limited role was doing what was asked of him, and that was to meet up with someone at a specific rendezvous point after the shots were fired. Given that Oswald himself said that he was a “patsy” (but was murdered before he could go to trial) you cannot PROVE that this wasn’t what happened. No, you can’t. Don’t try to throw me your Warren Commission crap, because it’s as believable as a Vladimir Putin report.
“The only logical answer is that he was the shooter.It is simple .It is definitive . And it cannot be refuted.”
photon, so you are arguing that because
A. Oswald left the building
B. if he left the building he must have known that Kennedy had been murdered
and
C. ergo Oswald was the shooter?
I think a first grader could refute your argument.
Then do it
photon, following your line of deduction, could it not be argued that:
A. Allen Dulles was fired from the Central Intelligence Agency by the murder victim, John F. Kennedy for his decisions related to Cuba.
B. Dulles, member of the Warren Commission along with John Jay McCloy, determined that a lone gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald shot President Kennedy.
C. John McCloy’s brother-in-law Lewis Douglas was an investor/board member of Empire Trust, financiers of United Fruit Company whose legal counsel rested with Warren Commission member Allen Dulles’ law firm Sullivan Cromwell; United Fruit was ousted from Cuba by Fidel Castro; Empire Trust executive Jack Crichton was responsible for the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment involved in [security] arrangements for the president’s visit to Dallas.
Ergo, some or all of these players functioning as rabid capitalists opposed to John Kennedy’s policies had reason to sponsor, facilitate and/or cover up the conspiracy to assassinate the president, in contrast to the alleged rabid Marxist/sniper Lee Harvey Oswald. Speaking of motivation of course.
Can anyone tie Dulles, McCloy, Crichton et al to a Mannlicher Carcano or a hand gun related to events in Dallas on 11.22.63? No.
Ironic, huh?
Why not take the next step,Leslie? Did Joe Kennedy own United Fruit stock?
Joe Kennedy and the Kennedy fortune were heavily invested in the Cuban Coca-Cola franchise and lost a fortune when it was nationalized. JFK donated his Presidential salary as he was supported by the Kennedy fortune.
Ethel Skakel Kennedy’s family was even more heavily invested in Cuba than Joe was-and took significant hits when Castro nationalized Great Lakes Carbon’s investments. So by your logic Joe and Ethel had more incentive to get rid of JFK than these “rabid capitalists”- why don’t you add them to the grand conspiracy?
photon, my point precisely.
How does this circumstantial evidence including the Shankel / Kennedy investments in Cuba weigh against your allegation that because an employee of TSBD (who had allegedly been in Mexico City seeking to travel to Cuba) left the depository building earlier than others employed in the building, he must surely have been the assassin? It works both ways photon. Even a first grader would recognize that.
Do you know if counterparts of Warren Caster in their respective publishing houses were required to clock in and out of 411 Elm? Do you know their names? Do you know if Roy Truly could account for every person who had access to the building the morning of 11.22.63, or did he only roll call the employees he was responsible for? I doubt seriously he kept tabs on his paying customers i.e. the execs of MacMillan, Scott Forsman, et al.
Leslie, it has been 3 days since you made your first grader comment. You have still not addressed Photon’s Paradox-the fact that Lee Oswald was the only individual in the TSBD who fled the scene of a crime before anybody even knew thabt a crime was committed.
Nobody else has come up with any explanation- not in 3 days, not in two years. If it is so easy to refute, why hasn’t anybody done it?
Photon, don’t leave out Nixon who was heavily invested in Cuba at the time of Castro’s takeover. He then became the White House point man on what became the Bay of Pigs as VP. Where Angels Tread Lightly, John Newman, pgs. 62-63.
“You have still not addressed Photon’s Paradox-the fact that Lee Oswald was the only individual in the TSBD who fled the scene of a crime before anybody even knew thabt a crime was committed.”
~Photon
This chest thumping is hilarious Photon. You use the term “fled” when many people did not remain in the building after shots were fired.
Either they all “fled” or they all simply did not return to work after an extraordinary event.
What you do not have is one scintilla of proof that Oswald fired those shots – nothing. Even your circumstantial evidence has broken down.
\\][//
Name one person who left the building or the area before 12:40 who was not accounted for.
“Most of the other TSBD employees worked for book publishers on the 3rd and 4th floors and had different bosses. Their whereabouts weren’t established until they gave sworn statements. ”
Does anyone but me recognize the hierarchical subtext in this.
Where is the list of the “book publishers” and “the bosses” of said publishers to determine if these bosses were asked for sworn statements?
Leslie,
“Where is the list of the “book publishers” and “the bosses” of said publishers to determine if these bosses were asked for sworn statements?”
As I’ve said before, everyone known to be present at the TSBD on 11/22/63 gave a statement, over 70 in all. It’s CE 1381:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0331b.htm
These sworn statements are rife with possibilities, but for this debate the operative word is “known,” and I recognize Jean Davison is reasonable enough to use the qualifier. 1) It is plausible that at least one person present in the building was not among those 70 who were willing to give statements. 2) It is possible that at least one of those 70 did not tell the (whole) truth. That’s a lot of people for none of them to have seen or heard more than has been established on record. 3) Most of these sworn statements appear to have been taken in the Spring of 1964, almost six months after the experience on 11.22.63. Given frequent assertions on this site that memory is compromised over time, can it be guaranteed that the recall of these people was accurate, that they remembered detail? Could some of that detail significantly alter the conclusions? Were they questioned immediately, and if not, why not? If Oswald had been afforded a trial, that surely would have been on his defense attorney’s list.
The purpose here is to “canvass all possibilities” before guessing that Oswald was the assailant because no one else has been identified. In essence, independent researchers have attempted and continue to do the job the Warren Commission failed to do.
For instance, a number of the publishing houses with sales and storage facilities located at 411 Elm wielded power beyond their capacity to write the history of our nation and promulgate a system that was fast eroding the ‘government of the people;’ their boards were packed with present and former military brass and industry leaders who enjoyed the fruits of defense contracts in the lead up to the escalation of the war in Vietnam. This is the context in which the TSBD business itself, at 411 Elm, the scene of the crime, should be of interest. Any one of the managers in charge of an office in the building could be implicated – all it took was opening a door – based solely on their political/ideological persuasion and motivation to remove John Kennedy from office and send the message “We Have Taken Charge.”
A sampling of sworn statements of individuals involved in the TSBD:
“I did not see LEE HARVEY OSWALD at the time the President was shot and did not know him as an employee at the building.” … Virginia R. Barnes
“I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald on November 22, 1963. I did not see anyone in the Texas School Book Depository building on the morning of November 22, 1963, who was a stranger.” …. Doris Fay Burns
“I definitely did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at that time . . . I have had occasion to view photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald . . . I did not observe any strangers in the Texas School Book Depository building on the morning of November 22, 1963: … Ochus Virgil Campbell
“I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at this time and to my knowledge have never seen Lee Harvey Oswald . . . I did not see any strangers in the Texas School Book Depository.” … Edna Case
“I do not recall seeing Lee Harvey Oswald at any time before or subsequent to the assassination of the president, nor do I recall observing any strangers in the building on the morning of November 22, 1963.” …. J.C. Cason
A distinct pattern: to a person they addressed the question of Lee Harvey Oswald, and 4 out of 5 stated specifically they had not seen a stranger in the building. The WC was not in investigative mode, it was building a case against Oswald. It is obvious that investigators were well aware from the outset that a stranger might have been in the building; 5 months later they set about to extract statements for the record diffusing the question. Did they ever pursue the possibility in earnest, or did they shut down the investigation sometime between the time Roy Truly identified Oswald’s absence, his providing authorities with Ruth Paine’s address, and the arrest of Oswald at 1:46. If Oswald was not arraigned for the assassination until the early hours of the 23rd, was law enforcement pursuing any suspects other than him between 12:30 and midnight the 22nd? The cursory detainment of Frazier does not qualify; he was not a ‘stranger’ in the building, and in fact he was merely being implicated with Oswald.
Had Oswald not been the prime focus of the commission (beginning December 18 when Allen Dulles provided commission members with an innocuous little booklet analyzing previous presidential assassinations), and in fact the only focus, might at least a handful of these people have given careful consideration to the events inside the building – recollection of a shadow, a noise, a movement that could have surfaced during more intense, unbiased questioning?
Contrary to investigative protocol, these statements were not spontaneously composed; in fact when read in sequence, the content is repetitive.
Leslie,
“A distinct pattern: to a person they addressed the question of Lee Harvey Oswald, and 4 out of 5 stated specifically they had not seen a stranger in the building. The WC was not in investigative mode, it was building a case against Oswald.”
Read the cover letter, Leslie. Rankin asked the FBI to interview everyone and ask 6 specific questions, e.g., where were you at the time of the shooting, who were you with, did you see Oswald at that time, did you see any strangers in Depository.
Building a case? Someone might have said, yes, I saw Oswald at 12:30. He was with me.
Yes that was apparent Jean, but I’m not clear why you are repeating my argument back to me. The reason the individuals answered specific questions is because they were asked specific questions, and they were asked specific question …. why? You argue it is because Rankin said it was all he wanted to know. This constructs a box, a safe haven, and failing to debate outside the WC box has the appearance of avoidance. The salient question in this exchange was whether or not unknown person or persons were inside the building when the shots were fired. Following that, simply because no one saw a ‘stranger’ is not proof one did not exist. A trained sniper for example has a skill set to include stealth movements.
Facetious remarks are an attempt to reduce the significance of the fact that these individuals were not asked for their complete recollection but rather to limit their statements to areas that served the case against Oswald. The deeper pattern here is in the deplorable tactics of the WC. They were focused on Oswald alone from day one; the nod to a single question about a ‘stranger’ was to create the appearance of a balanced investigation for the record. They were building a case against the boy (Roy Truly’s very own term); they were not seeking any evidence that might lead them in another direction. A defence attorney would have a hey day. The WC took a page from the very systems America is said to abhor.
LHO was not the only one in the TSBD who knew a shooting had occurred.
Officer Marrion entered the building within 90 seconds and found Roy Truly. They both began a search of the building.
They found LHO on the second floor, where Truly may have said “Lee, the president has been shot!”
On the first floor LHO encountered a female clerk who told him, “Oh my land, the president has been shot!”
-Washington Post, 12/1/63, available at Mary Ferrell, doc# 104398, p.443.
Hi Photon
Here’s 12 people who left the building and the area and weren’t accounted for.
Here’s the link
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=7612.45;wap2
Jack Charles Cason – President of School Book Depository – left building at 12:10 p.m. and went home (22H 640)
Gloria Jean Holt – clerk at TSBD – does not return after shooting. (19H 526 & 22H 652)
Sharon Simmons Nelson, Secretary, does not return after shooting. (Ibid)
Bonnie Richey, Secretary, does not return after the shooting. (22H 671)
Carolyn Arnold does not return after shooting. (22H 635)
Mrs. Donald Baker, Clerk, does not return after shooting. (22H 635)
Judy Marie Johnson does not return after shooting. (22H 256)
Ms. Stella Mae Jacob does not return after shooting. (22H 665)
Virginia H. Burnum – McGraw-Hill employee, does not return after shooting. (22H 636)
Vida Lee Whately – Clerk, does not return after shooting. (22H 680)
Warren Caster, ate lunch in Denton. (22H 641 & 26H 738)
Spaudlin “Pud” Jones, eating lunch at Blue Front with Herbert. (22H 658)
Abductive Reasoning:
The American philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce (1839–1914) first introduced the term as “guessing”.[7]
“One morning you enter the kitchen to find a plate and cup on the table, with breadcrumbs and a pat of butter on it, and surrounded by a jar of jam, a pack of sugar, and an empty carton of milk. You conclude that one of your house-mates got up at night to make him- or herself a midnight snack and was too tired to clear the table. This, you think, best explains the scene you are facing. To be sure, it might be that someone burgled the house and took the time to have a bite while on the job, or a house-mate might have arranged the things on the table without having a midnight snack but just to make you believe that someone had a midnight snack. But these hypotheses strike you as providing much more contrived explanations of the data than the one you infer to.”
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/abduction/
“Going with the best explanation” is a controversial topic in law so I’m surprised the argument is used repeatedly on this site by those defending the Warren Commission Report.
{One} very popular definition . . . abductive reasoning to be ‘inference to the best explanation.” This view has been criticized . . . on the grounds that it mixes together the process of generating and evaluating hypotheses. If we say we have the “best” explanation, we must have some criterion for judging which is best, and we must also be assured we have CANVASSED ALL POSSIBILITIES . . .
http://www.academia.edu/8411762/Abductive_Reasoning_in_Law_Taxonomy_and_Inference_to_the_Best_Explanation
Can you say in good faith you have spent any significant time and effort in canvassing all possibilities, photon?
Yes. In view of the fact that nobody in two years has come up with a satisfactory answer to Photon’s Paradox even when resorting to incorrect claims it appears that I am not alone.
The Paradox stands.
photon, with respects because I want to avoid your particular rabbit warren, can you elaborate on your “Paradox,” and in fact define how precisely it is one. I’ve yet to identify a definition of the term paradox that matches “Oswald left the building, no one else left the building, therefore Oswald assassinated the President of the United States.” I do know what defines a bowl of spaghetti.
“I’ve yet to identify a definition of the term paradox that matches “Oswald left the building, no one else left the building, therefore Oswald assassinated the President of the United States.”
~leslie sharp
The reason Leslie hasn’t found such a definition for “paradox” is because that is not a proper definition for the argument made by Photon. The proper definition of that argument is a “Non Sequitur”. That is, the conclusion reached “does not follow” in any rational way from the proposition thus made.
The argument made by Photon is doubly absurd in that it is not true that “no one else left the building”. So there is a premise here by Photon that is not only ‘non sequitur’, but it is based on a false assertion of the facts.
These threads have a tendency to become discussions, not of the topic of the thread, but of the disingenuous nature of Photon’s argumentation. This is clearly Photon’s strategy here. To disrupt the discussion and center the attention upon his/herself.
This has become a complete waste of time as Photon has proven to be glaringly duplicitous.
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Many TSBD employees went home for the day and/or did not return to work due to the assassination, including the president of the government’s southern propaganda book fulfillment center, the TSBD, American Legion head Jack Charles Cason, who left just prior to the assassination at 12:10. Gloria Holt, Stella Jacob, and other clerks and secretaries are also ON RECORD as LEAVING the TSBD after the shooting and not returning to work. Following the “logic” of your pretentious paradox, there are more suspects to question. Think the FBI is gonna get on that? There is no paradox. There is only evidence you and McAdams REFUSE to include with your callous, selective culling in support of the WC Report. YOUR “paradox” does not stand as it does not EXIST!
“Gloria Holt, Stella Jacob, and other clerks and secretaries are also ON RECORD as LEAVING the TSBD after the shooting and not returning to work. Following the “logic” of your pretentious paradox, there are more suspects to question.”
Holt and Jacob left the TSBD before the shooting, not after.
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317&search=%22gloria_holt%22#relPageId=682&tab=page
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317&relPageId=685&search=“stella_jacob”
@Jean Davison
I stand corrected on Holt and Jacob. Thanks for your direct, respectful approach without tacking on any agitation.
What do you make of the “The Myth of the Depository Roll Call” section from Mark Bridger’s “Dealey Plaza Echo”? http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=118224#relPageId=45&tab=page
I am not satisfied that what the DPD conducted was a strict roll call where one is reading names off from a list of known employees that would have led to a more honest pursuit of Oswald at a movie theater for not paying for a movie ticket but oddly paying for popcorn. Instead, this “roll call” that revealed Oswald was missing seemed to be more of a drawn out, loose questioning of random TSBD employees who were in the TSBD. Truly talked to DPD once to say all were accounted for but then a little later to say that Oswald had left, as if he was the only one who wasn’t there. There were multiple TSBD employees who were locked out after it had been sealed off. Why aren’t their persons identified as unaccounted for in the TSBD? DPD even documented people in their “roll call” who where in the TSBD who were NOT TSBD employees. This all seems so bizarre.
Thanks for your reply on the two witnesses, TheNewDanger.
“What do you make of the “The Myth of the Depository Roll Call” section from Mark Bridger’s “Dealey Plaza Echo”? http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=118224#relPageId=45&tab=page”
I’m afraid I think it’s about as far from the known facts as it’s possible to get. Very misleading, like many other JFK articles online.
The WC didn’t claim that there was a strict roll call. Truly just happened to notice that Oswald wasn’t there. He didn’t report Oswald missing until at least 1:22, according to the WR, second paragraph here:
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946&search=%22there_he+sits%22#relPageId=180&tab=page
By the time Fritz returned to the police department to ask his men to go to Irving to look for Oswald, Oswald was already there, under arrest.
If you don’t know why police went to the theater (it wasn’t because Oswald didn’t buy a ticket or because Truly gave his name to Fritz), you could read the testimony of Johnny Brewer, Julia Postal and other witnesses here:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm
The other TSBD bosses may not have reported anyone missing because they knew who had left their offices to go outside before the motorcade arrived.
But surely Photon you have not forgotten our discussion about just this issue a few short months back? Well, my feelings are hurt. You may be a paid-up disinformation agent for the CIA (allegedly) but I thought you were at least a gentleman.
If you don’t recall that discussion let me remind you of a few salient points. Harold Norman most certainly knew the President was wounded by gunshots as he said in his WC testimony. He and his 2 co-workers Billie Rae Williams and Junior Jarman then discussed the fact that the President was shot at and immediately left the TSBD. Others in the building that day that heard shots including Jack Dougherty left the building to see what had happened. Williams was not present at the TSBD workers roll-call in the minutes after the assassination. No-one queried his absence only Oswald’s. No-one started a huge search for Williams as they did for Oswald. Why is that Photon?
Oswald stated that after talking to his supervisor Bill Shelley he thought no more work would be done that day so he left the building.
So, yes it can be refuted – it already has been by you and me. And if you persist in this nonsense (yes, I said that) I will take the time to find the link to our previous discussion and post it.
Norman testified that he never saw JFK hit-only that he appeared to slump after the first shot-the shot that missed.
Jarman testified that he never saw JFK hit.He also stated that the men left the TSBD between 2:00 and 2:30.
No huge search for Williams started because he was still at the TSBD.Immediately after the shooting he gave a statement and was identified to police by Brennan as one of the three men he saw on the floor below the shooter.
Shelley testified that he never saw Oswald after 12:00 noon. He also testified that he never told anybody to go home.
You don’t help your case by making inaccurate claims that are contradicted by documented facts-unless you are claiming that Jarman,Norman and Shelley were liars.
I am not sure what comment that you are upset about.
Hello Photon
I found that link to our earlier discussion on this and will post it again here – just in case you missed it on the other thread.
https://jfkfacts.org/assassination/resource/crowdsourcing-jfk-dieugenio-on-the-mysterious-david-ferrie/#comments
I think if you walk through Norman’s testimony you will see he clearly connects the shot with the President slumping over and that Ball agrees with this interpretation by his follow up question. The first shot didn’t miss. As confirmed by the witnesses closest to the limousine Mary Moorman, Abraham Zapruder and Clint Hill.
Norman, Jarman and Williams all testified that at the time of the shooting they all ran to the west window to see what was going on in the railroad yards and then ran downstairs and out of the building. They didn’t run upstairs to see what all that racket up there was about.
Okay, my mistake on Williams. I actually meant Givens, apologies for that I was having a bad day.
Shelley claims he didn’t see or speak to Oswald after 12:00pm. According to the WC Oswald was in the sniper’s nest from about 11.50 – 12.33pm. So how did Oswald know that Shelley was out in front at the time of the assassination? That is the “Vanessa Paradox” that you have to answer………….
Of course I would NEVER claim any of the witnesses to the WC lied, Photon. And nobody needs to do that because they contradict each other’s testimony (and even their own testimony!) to such an extent that it cannot be relied upon.
It’s possible I was being a bit sarcastic about the hurt feelings. But you do seem to be strangely forgetful of some of the beautifully argued points that have been made by conspiracy realists on here.
Hi Vanessa,
Williams and others went outside immediately after the shooting but they returned to the building before it was sealed off. Williams was present at the “line-up” of Truly’s crew.
QUOTE:
Mr. McCLOY. Do you know whether or not anybody got out of the building before the police could get there? Did any of your friends or the people you were working with, did you hear whether any of them had left the building before the building was closed?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard Mr. Truly-he said that-he mentioned that-he said, “Where is Lee?”
UNQUOTE
Truly didn’t report Oswald missing right away so by the time the police knew his name he had already been arrested for the Tippit murder. No one was looking for Oswald before that.
Vanessa, do we know if there was a sign in sheet for the management level executives whose companies had offices in the depository building? If so, do we know if Truly’s role call included them and/or their visitors?
“Truly didn’t report Oswald missing right away so by the time the police knew his name he had already been arrested for the Tippit murder. No one was looking for Oswald before that.” Jean Davison
What do you mean”Truly didn’t report Oswald missing right away”?
How is it that Oswald is “missing” and anyone else who didn’t come back into the building are not counted as “missing”?
I am sorry Jean, but I see this type of verbiage as nothing but rhetorical trickery.
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In his testimony to the Warren Commission, School Book Depository supervisor Roy Truly is asked if he made a check of the employees after the shooting and he responds, “No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy [Oswald] wasn’t with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn’t there.” http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol7/page382.php
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page229.php
None of the 73 statements of School Book Depository employees (including the one signed by Roy Truly) mention a roll-call.
David,
I agree with what you’re saying here:
“In his testimony to the Warren Commission, School Book Depository supervisor Roy Truly is asked if he made a check of the employees after the shooting and he responds, “No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy [Oswald] wasn’t with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn’t there.” http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol7/page382.php
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page229.php”
There was no “roll call” of all TSBD workers and the WC didn’t claim there was. Truly had only 15 warehouse workers. Most of the other TSBD employees worked for book publishers on the 3rd and 4th floors and had different bosses. Their whereabouts weren’t established until they gave sworn statements.
Truly had nothing to do with Oswald’s arrest, which happened because Johnny Brewer saw him “ducking the cops” near the Texas Theater.
Jean Davison writes: “Truly didn’t report Oswald missing right away so by the time the police knew his name he had already been arrested for the Tippit murder. No one was looking for Oswald before that . . . ” and “Truly had nothing to do with Oswald’s arrest, which happened because Johnny Brewer saw him “ducking the cops” near the Texas Theater.”
Is this to suggest that the Tippit shooting was the sole reason that in the middle of a city wide man hunt for the murderer of President John F. Kennedy, a posse of Dallas police in police cars descended upon the Texas Theatre miles away from Dealey Plaza because someone was acting suspicious in front of a shoe store and then went inside the movie house without paying? Did someone at DPD HQ say, “okay all you guys, let’s get out there and help find who murdered President Kennedy on our watch . . . but not YOU guys – all you guys go on over to Oak Cliff and check out this suspicious character who was in front of that shoe store and is now in the theatre and he didn’t even buy a ticket.”
With full respect for police officers killed in the line of duty, it happens, and at the risk of being accused of valuing one life over another, I question why a significant number of Dallas law enforcement was focused on the Tippet shooting within an hour of the assassination of the leader of the free world? Can anyone explain why? Did the Oak Cliff address have anything to do with that commitment of resources?
The following are six instances of reference to an “Irving” address during the questioning of Roy Truly by George Ball and John J. McCloy. Oak Cliff is never mentioned.
A skeptic might wonder if they doth all protest too much. Why didn’t Truly and or Ball begin to refer to ‘his address’ after first establishing the Paine’s Irving address rather than repeating “Irving?” I posit they were cognizant that it could and most likely should be charged that someone mentioned Oswald’s address in Oak Cliff long before investigators visited the Irving address of Ruth Paine. And that was why the posse went to the Texas Theatre, not to arrest a person who was acting weird in front of a shoe store, but in pursuit of an alleged assassin – or in my world – The Patsy.
Mr. BALL. . . . you advised Captain Fritz of the name of Lee Oswald and his address in IRVING?
Mr. TRULY. . . . and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get–quickly get his address in IRVING . . .
BALL. . . . you at that time had in your possession there the address of Lee Oswald in IRVING?
Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his IRVING address, . . .
Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing—I told him what his name was and his IRVING address . . .
Mr. TRULY.. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in IRVING . . .
Willy,
“How is it that Oswald is “missing” and anyone else who didn’t come back into the building are not counted as “missing”?”
QUOTE:
Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin that “We have a man here that’s missing.” I said, “It may not mean anything, but he isn’t here.”[….]
Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing?
Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was one or two more, possibly Charles Givens, but I had seen [Givens] out in front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun.
Mr. BALL. But walking which way?
Mr. TRULY. The last time I saw him, he was walking across Houston Street, east on Elm [i.e., away from the TSBD]
Mr. BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?
Mr. TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn’t with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn’t there.
UNQUOTE
Truly had seen Oswald near the back stairs on the second floor c. 90 after the shooting. Now he was gone.
“I am sorry Jean, but I see this type of verbiage as nothing but rhetorical trickery.”
Truly said he was missing. Take it up with him.
“Truly said he was missing. Take it up with him.”
~Jean Davison
You have your reasoning backward Jean,
Truly considers Oswald as “missing” only after he has spoken with Captain Fritz, which means it is after Oswald has become a suspect, not before.
It is not Oswald being a suspect BECAUSE he is “missing” from the TBDB, it is the other way around.
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Leslie,
“…Is this to suggest that the Tippit shooting was the sole reason that in the middle of a city wide man hunt for the murderer of President John F. Kennedy, a posse of Dallas police in police cars descended upon the Texas Theatre miles away from Dealey Plaza because someone was acting suspicious in front of a shoe store and then went inside the movie house without paying?”
What “city-wide manhunt”? There was none because in the first 45 minutes the police had no leads. Their search of the TSBD and railroad cars turned up no one; apparently the shooter had fled. A very general description was broadcast. Then a policeman was shot in a nearby neighborhood. It wasn’t a stretch to think there might be a connection.
The police followed up on several tips about where the Tippit suspect might be (in a library, e.g.) before Julia Postal called to tell them about a man who, it turned out, fit the broadcast description and seemed to be ducking the police.
Leslie,
“The following are six instances of reference to an “Irving” address during the questioning of Roy Truly by George Ball and John J. McCloy. Oak Cliff is never mentioned.”
Since Truly didn’t know Oswald’s Oak Cliff address, why should it be mentioned?
Willy,
“You have your reasoning backward Jean,
Truly considers Oswald as “missing” only after he has spoken with Captain Fritz,
which means it is after Oswald has become a suspect, not before.
It is not Oswald being a suspect BECAUSE he is “missing” from the TBDB, it is the other way around.”
I have no idea what you mean, sorry. Truly went to Fritz after he noticed Oswald wasn’t there.
Dear Leslie, sorry I missed this. I’ve been a bit pre-occupied of late. That is a very good question which I do not have the answer to. If there is a list I haven’t heard about it.
But the idea that Truly could have accounted for everyone in the building and their visitors in that brief time period is highly unlikely, if not impossible, without such a list.
Jean, Perhaps my statement was too oblique. The fact is they found it necessary to state six timest that the address Truly had was the one in Irving (emphasizing he did not have the Oak Cliff address). Why was it necessary to hammer that fact? Were they concerned that some might wonder whether or not it was Truly who sent the police to Oak Cliff, triggering the chain of events there? If 50 years later we are able to contemplate this, don’t you think the investigators and lawyers were cognizant of the possibilities?
Jean, The APB describing some one carrying a rifle was issued just after 12:43. Are you suggesting that there was no immediate hunt for the assassin beyond Dealey and the tracks in play within minutes of that APB? And if there wasn’t, can you defend the delay? If there wasn’t a city wide manhunt for the assassin, why was there such a large contingent of police sent to the Texas Theatre?
“It wasn’t a stretch to think there might be a connection.”
This is the first glimpse I’ve read from those who defend the Warren Commission that it is quite plausible that the police went to the theatre suspecting that the Tippit murder and the assassination were connected. Why is this such a delicate area of the investigation?
“I have no idea what you mean, sorry. Truly went to Fritz after he noticed Oswald wasn’t there.” ~Jean Davison
What we are dealing with here Jean, is the fact that unless everyone else who was not back in the building after the shooting is considered an “escapee” it is a fraudulent argument to single out Oswald. It only makes sense to single out Oswald for some parallel reason, as what you are claiming to be suspicious behavior, is behavior that Oswald was far from alone in exhibiting.
You have not established that everybody employed by the TBDB was present EXCEPT for Oswald, and cannot because, as you know full well, no roll-call was taken.
Now, if you come back and say ‘But there ARE other parallel reasons to suspect Oswald, such as blablabla; let me point out to you that this would simply be another indication of how duplicitous your argumentation is.
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Hi Jean
My apologies for not getting back to you earlier. You are right it was Givens not Williams who was also not present at the line up. Apologies I keep getting their names confused.
Truly clearly says in his WC testimony that he saw Givens on the street after the shooting and before he knew of the Tippit shooting.
Truly also clearly says that he immediately told Fritz of Oswald’s absence and that was also before he knew of Tippit’s shooting. Fritz then sends the police after Oswald.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly2.htm
So Truly sees Givens after the shooting of the President walking away from the TSBD. Givens is then not present at the TSBD roll call of employees and does not come back to the building.
Truly reacts to this by immediately getting Oswald’s address and telling Fritz he’s absent.
Why didn’t Truly do the same for Givens as he did for Oswald? Truly has two employees in the same situation – both missing from the roll call and both of whom he has seen just minutes earlier. But it is Oswald who gets the police sent after him. Why?
Jean, in August 1969 the LAPD failed to make a connection between the Tate-Labianca murders despite glaringly obvious similarities of the murder scenes.
Was there something more obvious to cause DPD to the Texas Theatre? If so, I fail to see it in Postal and Brewer’s testimony.
Vanessa,
No, Truly saw Givens walking away from the building BEFORE the shooting and he didn’t give Fritz Oswald’s name until c. 1:22 or later, not “immediately.” Fritz didn’t send the police after Oswald (2nd paragraph here):
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946&search=%22there_he+sits%22#relPageId=180&tab=page
Givens was outside during the motorcade and Truly knew that.
Leslie,
Police were on the lookout for a “slender white male, about thirty, 5’10,” 165 pounds,” but I wouldn’t call that a “manhunt.” No one was looking for Oswald or anyone else specifically.
“…why was there such a large contingent of police sent to the Texas Theatre?”
Many who were listening to the police radio heard that a suspect had been seen going into the theater, and went there.
QUOTE:
“It wasn’t a stretch to think there might be a connection.”
This is the first glimpse I’ve read from those who defend the Warren Commission that it is quite plausible that the police went to the theatre suspecting that the Tippit murder and the assassination were connected. Why is this such a delicate area of the investigation?”
UNQUOTE
It’s not “delicate.” Read the DPD radio transcript. As I’ve said before, someone asked the dispatcher: “Is there any indication that it has any connection with this other shooting?” And the dispatcher replied, “Well, the descriptions on the suspect are similar and it is possible.”
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm
As I recall, the TV anchors also commented that there might be a connection between the two shootings.
Vanessa, thanks. I agree that it is impossible to guarantee that every person in the building was accounted for; the possibility of visitors in the building is reasonable as evidenced by Warren Caster’s testimony that a colleague had considered joining him on the day to view the motorcade but Caster had plans to travel to North Texas State.
The sworn statements of individuals said to have been in the building cannot be considered as proof of anything as the statements were prompted and limited. That is not a thorough investigation, it is a whitewash.
The possibility of a sniper making his way into and out of the building is not remote, it is highly conceivable regardless of the testimony of only a handful of people who said they saw no one going out the back. And if said individual had a similar appearance to Oswald, that too would add to the confusion of the well-intentioned testimony of some and account for “Oswald’s” presence in the lunchroom.
Jean, finally we are inching toward full acknowledgment that Oswald was arrested on suspicion of assassinating the president. In the past the insistence has been “the police went to the Texas Theatre because of the Tippit shooting, full stop.” We are establishing the likelihood that just after 1:46 pm, the search for an assassin had been called off, essentially. Is there evidence that any serious investigation other than the second phase – securing evidence to tie Oswald to the rifle – was underway that afternoon or the following day, or even the morning of the 24th? That would be significant data to produce: just how serious was law enforcement about pursuing the possibility they did NOT have their man.
If Captain Will Fritz suspected Oswald was also the assassin Kennedy (according to his testimony), based on Truly’s identification that Oswald was not in the depository building after 12:40’ish, then why didn’t Fritz take notes in that initial interrogation? It is inconceivable that the lead interrogator questioning the possible assassin of the president of the United States did not recognize the significance of what he was doing, inconceivable. And further it was inexcusable. He did not even make notes of the times he was in the depository, and he did not initial the rifle found on the 6th floor. He could not even recall whether or not he carried the rifle from the building. This suggests to me he was NOT leaving a paper trail for himself. His testimony is riddled with “you’ll have to check with X to get a positive answer on that.” (paraphrasing)
He belongs on the list of possible facilitators establishing Oswald as the patsy within two hours of the assassination. The question is whether or not he was a witting accomplice in the cover up.
Leslie,
“Jean, finally we are inching toward full acknowledgment that Oswald was arrested on suspicion of assassinating the president. In the past the insistence has been “the police went to the Texas Theatre because of the Tippit shooting, full stop.”
No, the WR said “the police radio had noted the similarity in the descriptions of the suspects” in the two shootings.
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946&search=brewer#relPageId=32&tab=page
“Is there evidence that any serious investigation other than the second phase – securing evidence to tie Oswald to the rifle – was underway that afternoon or the following day, or even the morning of the 24th?”
What significant leads do you see that the police failed to pursue? The evidence they got kept pointing to one person.
Criticizing Fritz for not taking notes will never change the fact that he did not take notes.
“[Fritz] belongs on the list of possible facilitators establishing Oswald as the patsy within two hours of the assassination. The question is whether or not he was a witting accomplice in the cover up.”
Your list of possible facilitators must be enormous by now.
Within two hours of the assassination Oswald had been arrested with a murder weapon in his hand. But everyone’s a suspect except Oswald, right??
Hi Jean
I don’t think Truly is that definitive about not seeing Givens after the shooting. See his testimony. Truly has seen Givens before the shooting walking down the street. Truly thinks he has also seen Givens at some time after the shooting when he ‘came back to the front of the building’ although he ‘can’t answer for sure whether he came in the building’.
Mr. BALL. Where is the last place you saw Givens?
Mr. TRULY. The last place I remember seeing Givens was in the middle of
the crossing, in the middle of Houston Street.
Mr. BALL. Walking in which direction?
Mr. TRULY. Walking east.
Mr. BALL. Walking east on the north side of Elm?
Mr. TRULY. North side of Elm-he had not completely crossed the street-
Houston Street.
Mr. BALL. Now, did Givens come back to the building later?
Mr. TRULY. I didn’t see him-later on he did.
Mr. BALL. When-how much later?
Mr. TRULY. Much later-I suppose- I don’t know his actions during that day.
Mr. BALL. Did he come back to the building?
Mr. TRULY. No.
Mr. BALL. After the shooting?
Mr. TRULY. I can’t say- I think he came back to the front of the building-
I can’t answer for sure whether he came in the building-I know he was at the
police station later on.
Mr. BALL. I think that’s all right now.
Apologies Jean perhaps I worded that wrong I meant that as soon as Truly was told by Shelley that Oswald was missing from the roll-call and before he knew about Tippit he immediately rang the warehouse to get his address and then told Fritz.
Mr. BALL. You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he (Oswald) was
not there?
Mr. TRULY, So, sir : I didn’t believe after thinking things over-it was over in
15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after retracing my trip to the
roof and the time delay and back, I would have to say that it was farther along
in the day than I had believed, so it could have been 1 or 1:05 or something
like that.
Mr. BALL. Before you discovered Oswald wasn’t there?
Mr. TRULY. That’s right, and at such time that you have information of the
officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in and around
the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that this boy wasn’t
among the other workers.
Mr. BALL. You remember you had seen him on the second floor, didn’t you?
Mr. TRULY. That’s right.
Mr. BALL. That’s when you were with Officer Baker?
Mr. TRULY. That’s right.
Mr. BALL. Now, you heard that Tippit had been shot, didn’t you?
Mr. TRULY. Not after-until after I had told Chief Lumpkin and Captain
Fritz and come back down to the first floor, then I learned that he had been
shot. The first I learned of it–there was a young officer ran in the front door
and told another officer, possibly a lieutenant, that there was an officer shot in Oak Cliff and that was all I knew at that time. I did not know that they had
captured Oswald then. Later on a newspaper reporter told me.
So Truly has seen Givens twice, once before the shooting and once after and Givens is absent from the roll-call. The same as Oswald. But Givens does not get the same treatment as Oswald. Why?
“The evidence they got . . . “
They had no evidence for at least several hours that could possibly, circumstantially tie Oswald to the assassination. They had a name – Truly to Fritz, they had an address in Irving, they had a rifle that had not yet been traced, they had a description of someone 30 lbs. heavier than Oswald, they had a .30-30 rifle tied to that person. How did the evidence keep pointing to one person in the first 90 minutes?
Does the police force wait until they get leads to search for assassin(s) who were so brazen they would shoot the president of the United States in broad daylight in front of hundreds of people? Law enforcement stands around and says, well, until we get a lead I guess we’ll just hang out around the scene of the crime, not speculate that the perpetrator might have fled out the back door and down any number of routes and initiate a manhunt, not immediately detain every person in the immediate vicinity to question what they saw, to ask if they saw anyone get into a vehicle, and if so to pursue the vehicle? You know, police work.
I note that Inspector HJ Sawyer who was responsible for the first description did not get the name of the witness (presumably this was Howard Leslie Brennan), and he says that when he heard about an officer shooting in Oak Cliff he sent a half dozen of his officers (who were apparently in and around the TSBD) to the scene. He says that he then hung around police headquarters until about 4pm, went home, and took the weekend off as scheduled. He didn’t hear about Ruby shooting Oswald until late the afternoon of November 24th. This is a man who spoke to the first ‘eye witness’ and he was not involved in the subsequent investigation.
Jean (continued)
“Criticizing Fritz for not taking notes will never change the fact that he did not take notes.”
Lacking curiosity about why a 20+ year veteran law enforcement officer chose to not take notes during the first search of the TSBD, to not record the timing of the search, to not initialize the rifle upon discovery, to not recall whether or not he carried that rifle from the crime scene, and to not take notes during the initial interrogation of the suspect in the crime of the century will never change the fact that Captain Fritz’ actions were highly irregular and therefore suspect.
“Your list of possible facilitators must be enormous by now.”
In fact the list has narrowed: FBI Agent Bardwell Odum (present at the Texas Theatre, why?), Captain Will Fritz, and SS/FBI Liaison Orrin Bartlett sit firmly in the limelight for now. Even if some choose to give Captain Fritz the benefit of the doubt, his testimony suggests that he knew he had not followed procedure, and when the flaws in the case against Oswald began to emerge he didn’t speak out.
“Within two hours of the assassination Oswald had been arrested with a murder weapon in his hand.”
That is a conflation. Oswald was (allegedly) arrested with a pistol, for the murder of a police officer. The alleged assassin’s weapon was a rifle. How were these connected at 1:46 pm? You can’t have it both ways, Jean. The weapons weren’t connected at that time, and wouldn’t be for hours because there was a big mess back at the crime scene in Dealey. Connally had been shot as well. And there was this bullet at Parkland.
A wise investigator said recently, “after the first shot, the rest of the operation was completely unpredictable.” Compartmentalization and confusion began to play significant roles in the set up of Oswald; sadly they persist today.
Hi Leslie
Warren Caster himself was absent from the round up of employees.
I agree that a sniper could still have got in and out of the building unnoticed (and even have been another TSBD employee apart from Oswald). Baker distinctly recalled seeing a man in a tan jacket descending the TSBD stairs as he ascended them. This was after Baker had the (supposed) 2nd floor lunchroom encounter with Oswald. This person has never been identified by any of the investigations.
Given the contradictory testimony of Jarman, Norman and Williams it’s also possible that there was no-one in the ‘sniper’s nest’ at all that day.
Jean:
“Criticizing Fritz for not taking notes will never change the fact that he did not take notes.”
Jean, I find this statement troubling on several layers. You are correct, criticizing Fritz will never change the fact that he was incompetent. However, for you, and I respect your opinion, it does not place a seed of doubt in your mind about the investigation by the DPD as a whole. You claim over and over again on this site that you are comfortable with the evidence as it exists. However, we have a man in a position of incredible authority FAILING to do the most basic part of his job. Investigating a suspect AND taking copious notes while doing so. It does not bother you, at least you have never said so that I have read. At the very least, it should make you wonder how much of the “evidence” collected by the DPD was actually collected, how it was collected, and how much suffered the “Fritz” treatment? “Oops, I forgot to do the most BASIC part of my job, but it is okay, the rest of the department did a crack job!” I am sorry, but that line of thinking DOES NOT reassure me.
If you look at the WR and the WC as a whole, you will find a glaring weakness that was not EVER addressed by anyone. NO ONE was ever held accountable for the multiple screw-ups that led to that fateful day. The only ONE who was held accountable was JFK. He gave it all that day. Not ONE other government official was EVER held accountable. Hoover kept his job, Rowley kept his job. Helms, Angleton, and the rest of the bozo staff were allowed to keep their jobs. Why? If we are to believe the LN side, it was a MASSIVE intelligence failure at ALL levels that allowed a deranged, lone nut to shoot the president with a 20.00 rifle. So, Jean, if the government and Johnson were REALLY serious about “finding the truth wherever it were to lead,” why was there not a MASSIVE firing that would reassure the public that Johnson was serious about the murder of a president in broad daylight?
Jean:
The refusal to fire ANYONE responsible for this monumental disaster leads one to believe that the government only cares about the status quo. I believe, and this is only an opinion, the WC COULD HAVE gained much greater credibility IF it said these people, because of their complete and utter incompetence WILL BE fired: Rowley, Hoover, Helms, Angleton, Curry, Fritz, etc. Don’t tell me that Johnson did not have that power. He could have made sweeping changes, which would have led most of America to believe that this was indeed a serious offense that needed drastic action. (Of course, Johnson would have not remained in amy office had JFK lived, but that is another story.) But no, people kept their jobs, the status quo was maintained and the charade continues to this day. Please read Shenon’s book on 9/11 and Wright’s book on 9/11. Failure after failure is mentioned, 3,000 innocent people lost their lives, wars started by liars began, and the cycle repeats itself all over. Was anyone in power held accountable? Nope! Everyone passed the buck, Bush retained his power, the CIA and the FBI were allowed to continue to operate—as ineffectually as ever and without any change whatsoever. As long as government agencies operate without impunity, this pattern will continue until you and I are long passed. And, again, this is only my opinion, it all began with the SHAM of the WC and the WR.
Jean, I have lifted the section of the excellent essay “The Hidden Government Group” by Professor Peter Dale Scott that relates to the description of Oswald; obviously anyone interested will want to read Scott’s entire article to understand the context.
http://www.voltairenet.org/article187504.html
(Prof. Scott) “I conclude that when we look at the conduct of the two men we know to have been parts of the COG emergency communications network in Dallas, we see patterns of sinister behavior that also involved others, or what we may call conspiratorial behavior. These concatenated efforts to implicate Oswald in a phase-one conspiracy narrative lead me to propose a hypothesis for which I have neither evidence nor an alternative explanation: namely, that someone on the WHCA network may have been the source for the important unexplained description on the Dallas Police tapes of a suspect who had exactly the false height and weight (5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds) recorded for Oswald in his FBI and CIA files.08
Note that there are no other known sources ascribing this specific height and weight to Oswald. For example, when he was arrested and charged in Dallas that same day, Oswald was recorded as having a height of 5’9 ½ inches, and a weight of 131 pounds. [22] The first reference to Oswald as 5’10”, 165 pounds, was that offered by Oswald’s mother Marguerite to FBI Agent Fain in May 1960, when Oswald himself was absent in Russia. [23]
The DPD officer contributing the description on the Police Channel was Inspector Herbert Sawyer, who allegedly had heard it from someone outside the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) whom he could not identify or describe. [24] The Warren Report said categorically that his source was Howard Brennan (WR 5), and that on the evening of November 22, Brennan “identified Oswald as the person in the lineup who bore the closest resemblance to the man in the window but he said that he was unable to make a positive identification” (WR 145). But there are many reasons to doubt this, starting with conflicts in Brennan’s own testimony (as Anthony Summers reported in Conspiracy, pp. 109-10) . And Ian Griggs has made a strong case that Brennan never saw Oswald in a line-up that evening. (There are police records placing Oswald in three line-ups that day, and corroborating witness reports of them; but there is no evidence whatever that Brennan attended any of the three.) [25]”
Jean:
“Within two hours of the assassination Oswald had been arrested with a murder weapon in his hand. But everyone’s a suspect except Oswald, right?”
The basic question for me—and I would guess a LARGE number of Americans—is HOW do we know which person or investigator to believe. Once your credibility is strained, or you have outright lied, or you are incompetent, where does one turn for the truth? You base the entire case on the findings of the WR, when the people who wrote the report now say—on this site—that information was withheld. Add to that the 96% error rate for the FBI’s fiber analysis, and where does that leave us? Curry waits years to say LHO never had a gun, Fritz never did his job regarding the handling of Oswald, the CIA lied about Oswald in Mexico City, the FBI knew about Oswald days before Dallas and did nothing. I am supposed to have confidence in ANYTHING related to this case? One has to wonder, at least I do, did the authorities EVEN look at anyone else on 11-22, or at any other time after that day? How can you say for sure? Oswald is “fleeing” the city, but he stops at his boarding house, picks up his revolver, shoots Tippit, and UNLOADS his revolver, BUT he is “fleeing?” Speaking of Tippit, he is a honorable police officer, however on the day of the assassination he is near the Texas Theatre, again depending on whom you believe. Why? Now we know that he had a mistress and a child with this woman that was not disclosed by the WC. No one, except for Brennan, can ID Oswald as the shooter, and he is hardly credible at best. Oswald is a “crack” who,” but the first and easiest shot misses EVERYTHING, except for a bystander 300 yards or feet away? The “magic bullet” is a mystery all to itself. So, while I can accept that Oswald could have been the shooter, how do I know for sure? Whose word do I accept? Curry? Fritz? Day? Hoover? All of these men FAILED spectacularly that day, either through incompetence or outright lying. You have faith in them, which I respect, but I have NONE. Why didn’t Johnson ask for an INDEPENDENT body—completely removed from the reaches of the government to conduct this investigation? Why was that not considered? Why do politicians investigate politicians?
So why Oswald WAS a suspect, how can you SAY for certain that ANYONE else was EVEN considered? It appears to me, based on the 50 books that I have read, that no REAL effort was made to follow any other lead. I do not have the number of witnesses that were actually interviewed by the WC, but I almost certain that the people outside of the TSBD and Dealey Plaza were only interviewed if they could solidify Oswald as the assassin.
Your thoughts are always welcome.
I think you’re misreading Truly’s testimony, Vanessa. He didn’t say he’d seen Givens twice before he noticed Oswald was gone. Look at the starred parts please:
Mr. BALL. Now, did Givens come back to the building later?
Mr. TRULY. **I didn’t see him-later on he did.**
Mr. BALL. When-how much later?
Mr. TRULY. Much later- **I suppose- I don’t know his actions during that day.***
Mr. BALL. Did he come back to the building?
Mr. TRULY. No.
Mr. BALL. After the shooting?
Mr. TRULY. **I can’t say- I think he came back to the front of the building-
I can’t answer for sure whether he came in the building-I know he was at the
police station later on.**
The police had brought Givens in to give a statement after he returned to the building to pick up his jacket in mid-afternoon. Truly could assume that Givens had returned because he was there at the DPD. At the time of the shooting Givens was with two friends who confirmed his alibi.
“….Givens is absent from the roll-call. The same as Oswald. But Givens does not get the same treatment as Oswald. Why?”
As I said, because at the time he noticed Oswald was gone Truly had last seen Givens walking away from the building — unlike Oswald, whom he’d last seen near the back stairs.
Although Truly didn’t say so, those stairs would’ve been the shooter’s only escape route if he came downstairs immediately after the shooting.
Do CT authors find that suspicious? No, they think it’s suspicious that Truly didn’t mention Givens.
Hi Jean
I agree, Truly’s testimony is unclear but he seems to be saying that he saw Givens in front of the building after the shooting but is not sure whether he’s seen Givens inside the building. If he hasn’t seen Givens at all why doesn’t he just say ‘no’ he didn’t see him?
Truly: “I think he came back to the front of the building. I can’t answer for sure whether he was in the building”.
Actually Givens confirms that he did go straight back to the TSBD after the shooting so it’s conceivable that is when Truly saw him.
It was only much later that Givens went to get his coat from the building and then was detained by the DPD.
Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. GIVENS. Three.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you heard them?
Mr. GNENS. Well, we broke and ran down that,way, and by the time we got to
the corner down there of Houston and Elm, everybody was running, going
toward the underpass over there by the railroad tracks.
And we asked-I asked someone–some white fellow there, “What happened?”
And he said, “Somebody shot the President.” Like that. So I stood there
for a while, and I went over to try to get to the building after they found out
the shots came from there, and when I went over to try to get back in the
officer at the door would’nt let me in.
Mr. BELIN. Did you tell him you worked there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; but he still wouldn’t let me in. He told me he wouldn’t
let no one in.
Mr. BELIN. This was the front of Elm Street?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes. So I goes back over to the parking lot and I wait until I
seen Junior.
Mr. BELIN. This was the front of Elm Street?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes. So I goes back over to the parking lot and I wait until I
seen Junior.
Mr. BELIN.. Is that Jarman?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes. They were on their way home, and they told me that they
let them all go home for the evening, and I said, “I’d better go back and get my
hat and coat.”
So I started over there to pick up my hat and coat, and Officer Dawson saw
me and he called me and asked me was my name Charles Givens, and I said,
“Yes.”
And he said, “We want you to go downtown and make a statement.”
And he puts me in the car and takes me down to the city hall and I made
a statement to Will Fritz down there.
At the time of the roll call Truly did not know that Givens had a good alibi – all he knows is that he, like Oswald, is missing.
It also seems possible that the last time Truly saw Givens was in front of the TSBD after the shooting. This should have put Givens in the same zone of ‘suspiciously missing but near the source of the shots’ as Oswald.
Leslie,
“They had no evidence for at least several hours that could possibly, circumstantially tie Oswald to the assassination….How did the evidence keep pointing to one person in the first 90 minutes?”
It didn’t, and that’s not what I said. I was responding to your question, “Is there evidence that any serious investigation ….was underway **that afternoon or the following day, or even the morning of the 24th**?”
The evidence didn’t point to anyone in particular in the first 90 minutes.
“Law enforcement stands around and says, well, until we get a lead I guess we’ll just hang out around the scene of the crime, not speculate that the perpetrator might have fled out the back door and down any number of routes and initiate a manhunt….”
A manhunt for a “slender white male” of average height and weight? Actually, Tippit may have stopped Oswald because of that description.
Instead of criticizing the police, the WC, and Everybody But Oswald for another half century, why don’t you guys explain at last how Oswald could have been framed and make up your minds about what you think DID happen, if he didn’t do it?
David,
“Was there something more obvious to cause DPD to the Texas Theatre? If so, I fail to see it in Postal and Brewer’s testimony.”
I’m not sure what you’re looking for. Police followed Tippit eyewitnesses’ statements about the direction the suspect headed in. The police searched several houses and a library in the area. Movie cashier Postal testified:
QUOTE:
So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it was their man, and I said, “Well, I didn’t know,” and he said, “Well, [if] it fits the description,” and …I said I hadn’t heard the description. All I know is, “This man is running from them for some reason.” And he wanted to know why, and told him because every time the sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know …if he fits the description is what he says. I said, “Let me tell you what he looks like and you take it from there.”….
UNQUOTE
The police didn’t rush to the Texas Theater immediately, as some sources imply. Postal had to persuade them this was their suspect.
Let’s cut to the chase on Truly, Vanessa.
“Mr. BALL. Now, you say that you knew that Givens was not there afterwards?
Mr. TRULY. I knew he wasn’t there at the time of the shooting because I had seen him walk across the street–up the street.”
Jean:
“Instead of criticizing the police, the WC, and everybody but Oswald for another half century…”
I, for one, have no doubt that Oswald was involved. The depth of his involvement I WILL NEVER know. I do not think any rational person would dispute that fact.
However, when the chief of Homicide, Fritz, FAILS to do the very least of his job, in your mind he should NOT be criticized or questioned?
When the chief of police, Curry, says years later that we never had any proof of LHO and the gun, in your mind he should not be criticized or questioned?
When the Chairman of the WC refuses to bring Duran to Washington as asked by Slawson, he is not to be criticized or questioned?
When the Chairman of the WC refuses to use the threat of indictment when he KNEW that people were possibly lying to him (CIA, FBI), he is not to be criticized or questioned?
When the FBI has a note from Oswald threatening the FBI, and he is not placed on a dangerous list, the FBI is not to be criticized or questioned?
When the lead pathologist destroys not one, but TWO sets of his draft notes, he is not to be criticized or questioned?
When the DPD refuses to follow the basic rules of collecting evidence and establishing chain of control, they are not to be criticized or questioned?
When leads are not followed, or simple phone calls are not made to investigate, these agencies are not to be criticized or questioned?
When members of the Commission want to sign a letter of dissent and they are not allowed to in order to give the appearance of “unity,” that is not to be criticized or questioned.
All I would like is a COMPLETE and THOROUGH investigation. That did not happen. It will never happen. If you want to say that LHO was the assassin, I can accept that fact. I CANNOT accept the shoddiness and the lack of detail this “blue ribbon” commission that stated very clearly that they “wanted to settle the dust” and follow the “truth wherever it may lead” gave to us as “truth.” There are SO many holes and gaps, so many witnesses that have changed their stories so many times, that the day of truth is long past.
I still believe, and I know you will probably disagree, that Josiah Thompson and Slyvia Meagher wrote a FAR more thorough and thoughtful analysis than the WC did with FAR less resources and power available to them.
The whole affair is sad. Sad beyond words.
Jean, [why would law enforcement initiate] “A manhunt for a “slender white male” of average height and weight?”
The argument appears now to be that no manhunt could possibly ensue with little more than a general description of “a slender white male of average height and weight,” yet previously you have emphasized the description of a 5’10” white male, weighing 165lbs as justification for the arrest of Oswald in the Texas Theatre because it was comparable to Postal’s description at the time: Dispatcher: “Well, the descriptions on the suspect are similar and it is possible.”
Previously we have been talking about the specificity of that initial description, NOT ‘average height and weight’ as you have now introduced. As we both know, events unfolded at the theatre (in spite of the fact that Oswald was significantly lighter in weight – and an inch shorter) based on the initial description 5’10, “165 lbs. I will not debate the term “average height and weight” when we know what the exact description was.
You have argued that description was the basis for the posse going to the theatre, because it matched Oswald and was justification for his arrest. Now, on the heels of my introduction of Professor Scott’s essay that addresses the precise description – 5’10” 165 lbs. – you have dropped those specifics and resorted to a sanitized description – and further argue it was not sufficient to initiate a manhunt.
The “manhunt” – the only manhunt – was in play from approx. 12:43 and concluded at 1:46 based on the 5’10” 165 lbs description.’ A posse of law enforcement including FBI Agent Odum descended upon the theatre based on the dispatcher’s description, not in search of an ‘average height and weight’ white male.
That specific description came from Inspector HJ Sawyer who (by deduction we are meant to believe) got from a man who would subsequently prove unsteady to say the least in his certitude that Oswald was the person he saw in the window.
As Professor Scott has argued effectively, the description of a 165lb Oswald originated with Marguerite. Why would Brennan’s description match that specific weight when he only saw someone in the 6th floor window for a split second? The Oswald arrested in the Texas Theatre was 37 lbs. lighter. 17 lbs could be argued as an acceptable margin of error, but not over twice that figure. 40 lbs. heaver is an entirely different physique.
Among many other pre-assassination incidents, what conclusions can be drawn from the stories of Wayne January, Ralph Leon Yates and former US Air Force sergeant, Robert Vinson?
The choreographers of these charades, the CIA, was not only setting up Lee Harvey Oswald to take the fall for their own assassination plot, but simultaneously setting up their arch-enemy, Nikita Khrushchev and his ally Fidel Castro as fall guys. IMHO
Steve,
It wasn’t Fritz’s policy to take notes because he tried to get suspects to relax and talk freely. However, two FBI agents who were at the interrogation sessions took notes, and they and others present wrote up reports, pp. 612-636 here:
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=636&tab=page
While at the jail Oswald also talked to his mother, brother and wife, who all testified about what he told them, and he talked to reporters in the hall and at a brief news conference, as you know.
You call it a “massive intelligence failure,” but the FBI and others had no way of knowing that Oswald was dangerous or a potential assassin of JFK.
“You base the entire case on the findings of the WR, when the people who wrote the report now say—on this site—that information was withheld.”
No, after looking at the evidence (testimony, documents, etc.) I ended up agreeing with the WR conclusion that Oswald was guilty, as did the HSCA.
“So, while I can accept that Oswald could have been the shooter, how do I know for sure? Whose word do I accept?”
You shouldn’t accept anybody’s word, imo. You should look at the evidence and try to determine the most plausible explanation.
Oswald is thoroughly alibied, covering the time period of the shootings in Dealey Plaza:
Shortly after mid–day, Oswald went from the first floor to the second–floor lunch room.
Oswald was there at about 12:15, when he was seen by Carolyn Arnold.
Shortly afterwards, he went downstairs to the domino room, and saw James Jarman and Harold Norman at around 12:25.
At about 12:31 he went back up to the second–floor lunch room to obtain a soft drink. At the entrance to the lunch room, Oswald encountered a police officer, Marrion Baker, and the building supervisor, Roy Truly.
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Leslie,
“(Quoting author Scott):
These concatenated efforts to implicate Oswald in a phase-one conspiracy narrative lead me to propose a hypothesis for which I have neither evidence nor an alternative explanation: namely, that someone on the WHCA network may have been the source for the important unexplained description on the Dallas Police tapes of a suspect who had exactly the false height and weight (5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds) recorded for Oswald in his FBI and CIA files…. when he was arrested and charged in Dallas that same day, Oswald was recorded as having a height of 5’9 ½ inches, and a weight of 131 pounds.”
I respectfully disagree with Prof. Scott. I see this as an example of how conspiracy theories interpret anomalies as the work of conspirators who show up wherever needed and yet typically do stupid things, like trying to implicate Oswald with a general physical description that wasn’t even accurate.
An actual plotter with a brain could’ve had somebody in the crowd, say a TSBD worker, tell police they recognized the man in the window as Oswald. But nooo…. these geniuses do things like plant a dented M-C shell “that couldn’t have been fired that day,” try to frame Oswald with a rifle he didn’t pay for and couldn’t have picked up and what’s more, was the wrong length and really a Mauser.
“(There are police records placing Oswald in three line-ups that day, and corroborating witness reports of them; but there is no evidence whatever that Brennan attended any of the three.)”
Not so. There’s testimony saying that a Secret Service agent named Patterson took Brennan to the same line-up the Davis sisters attended:
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=34&relPageId=245&search=brennan_AND davis
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=34&relPageId=245&search=brennan_AND davis
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=41&relPageId=364&search=brennan_AND Patterson
So far as I know there’s no DPD record of it, maybe because the SS brought him there or because he didn’t positively ID Oswald as the other witnesses did.
“It wasn’t Fritz’s policy to take notes because he tried to get suspects to relax and talk freely.”~Jean Davison
This assertion is laughable and absurd.
And then we are directed to a summation by the FBI that doesn’t contain one verbatim quote from Oswald, just a the agent’s assertions that “Oswald said”.
It is bloody absurd to claim this was in any way a proper interrogation.
And the meme of the “investigation as incompetence” is a modified limited hangout. It was obviously a frame up of the designated patsy, Lee Harvey Oswald.
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The distinction between raw data and information is generally misunderstood. Data is not information until it is put in some particular context.
Data sets must not only be put in context, but all other data in that context must be analyzed as a whole.
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Hi Jean
I’m very happy to cut to the chase on Truly.
In his WC testimony Truly says the first sound he heard at the time of the shooting was like a ‘loud firecracker from west of the building’.
100 yards west of the TSBD is the Grassy Knoll. Truly has last seen Givens walking westwards. He then hears gunfire from the west.
Truly hasn’t seen Givens at the time of the shooting. (“I knew he wasn’t there at the time of the shooting because I had seen him walk across the street–up the street.”)
So Truly has seen Givens walk in the direction from which he subsequently hears gunfire. He then sees Givens shortly after the assassination on front of the TSBD. Givens is then absent from the roll-call.
Yet, within 30 – 40 minutes of the shooting Truly has completely ruled out Givens as a suspect in the shooting. That is very prescient of him.
Remarkably prescient that he’d identified Oswald’s absence as suspicious but found Givens’ absence not worth a second thought.
And even more amazing that Truly had managed to solve the crime of the century within 40 minutes.
Oswald’s and Givens’ circumstances around the time of the shooting are not that dissimilar and yet Truly finds one suspicious and not the other.
I do not see anything in Truly’s testimony to properly explain why he did not obtain Givens’ address and inform the police of his absence at the same time he did Oswald’s.
Vanessa,
“100 yards west of the TSBD is the Grassy Knoll. Truly has last seen Givens walking westwards. He then hears gunfire from the west.”
Wow, so you’re suggesting that Givens was a GK shooter? (Is there any evidence to support that? No, there isn’t.)
Besides, Truly had last seen Givens walking EAST, away from the knoll not toward it.
“Oswald’s and Givens’ circumstances around the time of the shooting are not that dissimilar and yet Truly finds one suspicious and not the other.”
No, their circumstances are completely dissimilar. Givens was outside and had an alibi. He watched the motorcade with two friends at the corner of Main and Record. He came back to the building later. Oswald was inside, no one gave him an alibi, and he left the scene right away.
Truly had seen Oswald near the back stairs c. 90 seconds after the shooting. And yet you and others are suspicious of … Givens and Truly, not Oswald. I find that simply amazing.
Jean, A 34 to 44 lb. difference in body weight is hardly a minor discrepancy in any description, and it is disingenuous to suggest that mistaking a 130 lb. person for a 165-175lb. person is an anomaly.
“He was a white man in his early 30s, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds.”
— Howard L. Brennan; November 22, 1963
It is curious that Inspector Sawyer did not advise dispatch that the eyewitness said he was 165 TO 175 pounds, but chose to limit the description to 165. (Also note, Brennan said he was “nice looking.” Are we to believe he could make out Oswald’s facial features from that distance in a matter of seconds?)
Professor Scott is not using an anomaly to form his hypothesis: he is specifying an agency, the WHCA, may have been the source of the 165 lb. description, the same description of Oswald in FBI and CIA files. One has to wonder if the files speculated Oswald might be 175 lbs.
It is the source of the description that is under examination. It is alleged that Inspector Sawyer initiated the dissemination of the description at approx. 12:43. His source is alleged to have been Howard Brennan although I’ve yet to find a document supporting that; Sawyer did not take Brennan’s statement, and in fact went off duty around 4pm on the 22nd and did not participate in the investigation the entire weekend in spite of having talked to an eyewitness who would later be paraded as credible and significant to the case against Oswald.
I believe you have argued that this initial description warranted the rush by DPD to the Texas Theatre because it matched that which Postal provided. She says that she had not yet described the young man who entered the theatre when the police officer said to her, “well, it fits the description . . ”
Postal testified: “So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it was their man, and I said, “Well, I didn’t know,” and he said, “Well, it fits the description,” and I have not—I said I hadn’t heard the description. All I know is, “This man is running from them for some reason.” And he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know—-well, if he fits the description is what he says. I said, “Let me tell you what he looks like and you take it from there.”
Another possible scenario. A 165 to 175 lb. white male, 5’10” tall may have indeed been sighted in the TSBD but that person was never pursued.
Willy,
“Shortly after mid–day, Oswald went from the first floor to the second–floor lunch room. Oswald was there at about 12:15, when he was seen by Carolyn Arnold.”
That wasn’t Arnold’s original story. She came up with this version 15 years later. But other workers had lunch there that day and they didn’t see Oswald. Pauline Sanders, e.g., left the second floor lunchroom about 12:20:
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317&relPageId=702&search=pauline_sanders
“Shortly afterwards, he went downstairs to the domino room, and saw James Jarman and Harold Norman at around 12:25.”
They didn’t see him there.
Don’t you think it’s at all odd that a “JFK admirer” like Oswald was in the back of the building having lunch when the motorcade went by?
Now Jean, you know very well I am not saying that Givens was a GK shooter (I mean, there wasn’t one, was there? 🙂 )
I am saying that 30 – 40 minutes after the shooting Truly did not know of Givens’ alibi or of Givens’ location at the time of the shooting. All he knows is that he has seen him outside crossing Houston St heading east before the shooting (yes, you are correct on that, my apologies). Givens is then missing from the roll call.
Truly is convinced that the shots didn’t come from the TSBD.
Truly: “And I told the officer (Baker) that I didn’t feel like the shots came from the building.
I said, “I think we are wasting our time up here,” or words to that effect, “I don’t believe these shots came from the building.”
Truly: “……. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound of–the direction of the shot, that I did not believe still did not believe maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from there. I am sure that did not bring Oswald in my mind. But it was just the fact that they were trying to get people’s names.”
Truly has seen Oswald 10 – 12 minutes before on the second floor lunch room where he has supposedly exonerated him as a suspect. That is partly because Truly believes the shots came from outside the building.
He has seen Givens outside where he thinks the shots could have come from but is able to rule him out immediately as not ‘suspiciously missing’.
How does Truly know that Givens couldn’t be any kind of suspect given the information he had at the time of the roll call?
Hi Jean
I know your response here is for Willy but I will put my 2 cents in, if I may. Apologies to Willy and to you.
“Shortly afterwards, he went downstairs to the domino room, and saw James Jarman and Harold Norman at round 12:25”.
“They didn’t see him there”
Jarman and Norman had exited the TSBD to stand on Elm St. They then re-entered the TSBD at 12.25 to get a better look at the President from the 5th floor.
If Oswald is in the sniper’s nest from 11.50 am – 12.33 pm how does he know that Jarman and Norman were even in the building?
Yes, it is odd that a person with an interest in politics and in JFK wouldn’t bother to take a few steps outside to see the President pass by.
But we don’t need to ponder over that anymore because from the Weigman and Darnell films we now know that Oswald was in fact standing on the TSBD steps, possibly taking photos of the motorcade, as we might expect from a person with his interests.
Please see this link on Ed Forum:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=e569c1c2ade4b008f6091356c6f99335&showtopic=20354
Vanessa,
“How does Truly know that Givens couldn’t be any kind of suspect given the information he had at the time of the roll call?”
Because by that time he knew the shots had come from the Depository. Police were already inside, searching the building.
“Yes, it is odd that a person with an interest in politics and in JFK wouldn’t bother to take a few steps outside to see the President pass by.
But we don’t need to ponder over that anymore because from the Weigman and Darnell films we now know that Oswald was in fact standing on the TSBD steps, possibly taking photos of the motorcade, as we might expect from a person with his interests.”
Too bad Oswald didn’t know about that. As you know, that’s not what he said he was.
“Reporter: Did you shoot the President?
Oswald: I work in that building.
Reporter: Were you in the building at the time?
Oswald: Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir.”
Leslie,
Somehow you’ve misunderstood me. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. The physical description that was broadcast was an average weight and height for a male, and no one rushed to the theater because of it. There must have been numerous young Dallas males who would fit that general description.
Postal was suspicious of Oswald only because he appeared to be “running” from the cops. (She said she hadn’t heard the police description).
Shoe salesman Johnny Brewer had followed Oswald to the theater because Oswald appeared to be “ducking the cops” when police cars went by. The police came for the same reason after Postal told them about it — PLUS, in addition, Oswald matched the general description of the Tippit shooter.
“Professor Scott is not using an anomaly to form his hypothesis: he is specifying an agency, the WHCA, may have been the source of the 165 lb. description, the same description of Oswald in FBI and CIA files….”
Why would anyone want to put out a very general, but inaccurate, description? Makes no sense. That was my point.
CTs point to anomalies (oddities, things that “look funny”) in the record as though they are clues, but clues lead to a story that makes sense. These don’t. That indicates, imo, that they are meaningless “noise” or simply coincidences.
“The physical description that was broadcast was an average weight and height for a male” ~Jean Davison
How stupid Jean, really … and you should know better; 5′ 10′ 165-lbs is the description of the “Mole flash-file” Angleton set up in Mexico City. as well as the weight and height Oswald’s mother gave the FBI while he was in Russia.
So this description is far from simply being the “average weight and height for a male”
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Leslie,
I think better said, Jean, you have confused me because the officer that Postal spoke with said, “Well, it fits the description …” What description do you think he was talking about? She had not described Oswald. If you want to now argue that the DPD fled to the Texas Theatre because a young man was acting strangely, that’s one matter; but I believe you also stated previously it was logical for the police to suspect the man in Texas Theatre was Oswald because the 5’10” 165 lbs. description of the suspect in the assassination matched the description from the Texas Theatre. I don’t think you can have it both ways. Something is going on in the officer’s response to Postal and the subsequent rush to Texas Theatre.
You have failed to explain how a 34 lb. difference in the descriptions can each be considered “average weight” 5/10” and 131 lbs. is not average and is in fact “slight, slim, (even) skinny” by any general standard. Resorting now to emphasis on a “general description” is disingenuous. Let’s both agree that a very specific description was issued by the DPD as early as 12:43, and it did not match the Oswald that worked in the building.
“There must have been numerous young Dallas males who would fit that general description.”
Then why was the description important? Obviously FBI Agent Bardwell Odum thought it significant enough to go to the theatre if that fact can be corroborated; oh wait, it can’t … because Odum never testified before the Warren Commission. . The 12:43 description either did or did not play into the scenario as it unfolded at the theatre.
“Postal was suspicious of Oswald only because he appeared to be “running” from the cops. (She said she hadn’t heard the police description).”
I know, I pointed that fact out to you.
“PLUS, in addition, Oswald matched the general description of the Tippit shooter.”
Did the description of the person seen at the scene of the Tippit murder weigh approx.165 lbs. OR did he weigh approx. 131 lbs.? To put this in perspective, if you weighed an additional 31 lbs., do you think anyone would describe you with the same adjectives? Would they say “slightly heavy” “average” or “slender?”
“Why would anyone want to put out a very general, but inaccurate, description?”
Jean, I reject your casual “why would ‘anyone,’” and I’ll narrow this down to why would “those who orchestrated the details of the assassination and the events of the immediate aftermath (which could not be predicted after the very first shot was fired)” put out an inaccurate description, The 165 lb. description that Swayer called in was the exact description held in CIA and FBI files. It did not match the Oswald working at the TSBD. I believe it was a colossal screw up but the orchestrators knew that key individuals within the DPD would clean things up as they went along. They had their eye on the end game – Oswald as patsy, and a cover up – and confusion and mayhem served the long range plan; after all, we’re here now arguing these details.
re: Anomalies: Please explain how 34 lbs. discrepancy “looks funny” rather than being an indication of dated information OR two separate individuals? The story that makes sense is that the case against Oswald is so riddled with anomalies that he could not possibly have been the assassin of the president; ergo he was set up as a patsy and the villains were never pursued.
(re-post for word count)
Jean,
“Somehow you’ve misunderstood me . . .”
I think better said, you have confused the issue because the officer that Postal spoke with said “Well, it fits the description …” What description is he talking about? She had not described Oswald. If you want to now argue that the DPD fled to the Texas Theatre because a young man was acting strangely, that’s one matter; but I believe you also stated previously it was logical for the police to suspect the man in Texas Theatre was Oswald because of the 5’10” 165 lbs. description of the suspect in the assassination matched the description from the Texas Theatre. Something is going on in the officer’s response to Postal and the subsequent rush to Texas Theatre.
You have failed to explain how a 34 lb. difference in the descriptions can each be considered “average weight” 5/10” and 131 lbs. is not average and is in fact “slight, slim, (even) skinny” by any general standard. Let’s both agree that a very specific description was issued by the DPD as early as 12:43, and it did not match the Oswald that worked in the building.
“ . . . numerous young Dallas males who would fit that general description.”
Then why was the description important? Would FBI Agent Bardwell Odum go to the scene based on a description that would fit numerous your Dallas males? We’ll never know because Odum never testified before the Warren Commission. The 12:43 description either did or did not play into the scenario as it unfolded at the theatre.
Did the description of the person seen at the scene of the Tippit murder weigh approx.165 lbs. OR did he weigh approx. 131 lbs.? If you weighed an additional 31 lbs., do you think anyone would describe you with the same adjectives? Would they say “slightly heavy” “average” or “slender?”
Why would “those who orchestrated the details of the assassination and the events of the immediate aftermath (which could not be predicted after the very first shot was fired)” put out an inaccurate description, The 165 lb. description that Swayer called in was the exact description held by the CIA and FBI. It did not match the Oswald working at the TSBD. I believe it was a colossal screw up, but the orchestrators knew that key individuals within the DPD would clean things up as they went along. Confusion and mayhem served the long range cover up – after all, we’re here now arguing these details.
Please explain how 34 lbs. discrepancy “looks funny” rather than being an indication of dated information OR two separate individuals? The story that makes sense is that the case against Oswald is so riddled with anomalies that he could not possibly have been the assassin of the president; ergo he was set up as a patsy and the villains were never pursued.
Hi Jean
Truly clearly says he didn’t believe the shots came from the building until after the rifle had been found there.
Truly: “In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound of–the direction of the shot, that I did not believe, still did not believe, maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and the shells there”.
Truly had already noticed Oswald missing and gotten his address and gone to talk to Fritz before he knew the rifle had been found.
Mr. Ball: Then, if the gun wasn’t found until after 1:10, you think it might have been as late as 1:05 or so before you discovered that Oswald wasn’t there?
Mr. Truly: It could be–it could have been.
Mr. Ball: You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was not there?
Mr. Truly: No sir, I didn’t believe after thinking things over–it was over in 15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, I would have to say that it was farther along in the day than I had believed, so it could have been I or 1:05 or something like that.
Mr. Ball: Before you discovered Oswald wasn’t there?
Mr. Truly: That’s right, and at such time that you have information of the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that this boy wasn’t among the other workers.
So Jean, we are back to 2 missing employees. One was outside the building where Truly thinks the shots came from and one inside the building where he doesn’t believe the shots came from and who he has minutes earlier just exonerated as a suspect to Officer Baker.
We still do not have an adequate explanation from Truly as to why he obtained Oswald’s address but not Givens.
As we’ve discussed before regarding Prayer Man that is one piece of evidence and I think it’s open to interpretation.
If you are really going to hang your hat on that statement then your side is going to be in a world of trouble when we finally get clearer pictures of the man in the Prayer Man position (standing behind Billy Lovelady on the TSBD steps).
Because with each enhancement of Weigman and Darnell we are getting better images of this man and not only does he look more Oswald-like with each enhancement but perhaps, even more importantly he does not look UNLIKE Oswald at all. Which we should be expecting to see by now, shouldn’t we?
Unless, of course, on that day we had 2 people standing next to each other on the TSBD steps (Billy Lovelady and Prayer Man) who both look like Lee Harvey Oswald.
And that doesn’t seem very likely, does it.
Photon – That’s one of the worst conclusion that I’ve ever read. Surely you can do better that that.
Photon-maybe he was A shooter, but your argument doesn’t cancel out others joining him in this effort.
Three shots. Jarman, Norman and Williams heard three shots fired directly above them-even having ceiling material falli on them and hearing the sounds of a bolt-action rifle ejecting shells.A man across the street identifying them as being directly below the shooter.
Not ‘A’ shooter. ‘THE’ shooter.
Photon, is that the same Williams (Bonnie Ray Williams) who was on the sniper’s nest just two minutes before the shooting and then was neither shocked nor perplexed about the idea of a shooter from that window? And what was he doing from 12:00 till 12:28 on sniper’s nest?
And let’s not forget the motorcade was running behind schedule to pass through Dealey Plaza at 12:25, not 12:30.
And where was “The” shooter from 12:00 till 12:28? Assuming that Bonnie Ray Williams was not part of the conspiracy and just happened to hang around the sniper’s nest for almost half an hour just before the assassination, then how did “The” shooter assemble his rifle and build up the sniper’s nest without being seen or heard by Williams? İs it really plausible that “The” shooter had everything ready by 12:00 and he just hid under the boxes for half an hour while Williams was there? And wasn’t Oswald seen and talked to by two employees on the 1st floor at 11:50 am and 12:00? These testimonies are on Warren Commission report and was not contested by anyone. So how come we can still think that “Oswald somehow did it” despite all this evidence?
No, Photon. No, they didn’t. Jarman and Williams said that Norman told them the shots came from overhead. Norman then says in his WC testimony that it was the FBI that told him he’d said that the shots came from overhead because apparently he didn’t remember it happening that way (!).
I’m new here, Photon. Can you explain why the government continues to suppress files and information related to the assassination?
Sure stuff has gradually come out, especially with the ARRB mandate, but this was more than 30 years after the assassination, and now 50 years afterwards, there still is assassination-related documents that haven’t been released. In fact, the Secret Service destroyed some information about the Lincoln limousine just after they were informed about the ARRB mandate.
So, tell me, what are they hiding if Oswald was truly the lone assassin? His peculiar sex fetishes or unusual bathroom habits? Maybe he was having an affair with Hoover. Maybe he used to be a domme and LBJ was his sissy. I know I’m being ridiculous, but so is anyone who claims there was no conspiracy and goes overboard in intellectualizing rationales and explanations to support the government’s position. I guess this is what disinformation specialists do, spend time on these message boards and try to lead people away from the truth.
I guess you must be getting paid, then?
[Tom Calarco:]
“I know I’m being ridiculous”
========================
Actually, Tom, the dialectical technique you just used is called sarcasm. Can also be seen as ‘reductio ad absurdum’. It is valid and can be very useful.
“So…Mr. Oswald: Why did you think there would be no more work that day????? Oh…..obvious answer: ‘Cuz I shot him’.”~Bill
I think it is obvious, as it turned out througout the entire nation , that day, that the shooting of the President was such a huge event that businesses would shut, schools would be closed, etc.
As soon as it was announced that the president had been shot in Texas, the high school I was in let school out for the rest of the day, and that was extended until after the funeral.
This assumption by Bill is totally jejune, and the use of such a matter as a “Proof” of guilt is utterly absurd. And that is one of the reasons Photon is so taken by this idea, he will grasp at any straw to frame Oswald.
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“As soon as it was announced that the President had been shot”: the first nationwide bulliten announcing that shots had been fired at JFK’s motorcade in Dallas was at 12:37 CST. On ABC radio.Oswald had already left the building.
At 12:48 CST CBS Broadcast Cronkite’s first bulliten. At that time Oswald was already in a taxi en route to his boarding house-an unusual expense for the impoverished Oswald.Why did he abandon the public transport system if he was just “going home”- particularly before any reports of JFK actually being wounded?
The discussion here has nothing to do with the reaction after JFK’s death was announced. It has everything to do with Oswald’s actions before anybody but a handful of people knew JFK had been fatally shot.His actions prove that he was one of that handful.
“The discussion here has nothing to do with the reaction after JFK’s death was announced.”~Photon
I watched the Cronkite announcement on TV because I was home, having been let out of school at the first announcement that Kennedy had been shot. I didn’t know he had been killed until then, just like everyone else in the country.
Your argument here is just dumb.
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How do you know it was Oswald in the cab, Photon?
According to the WC, William Whaley picked up Oswald at 12:48pm in front of the Greyhound bus station at Elm and Murphy streets. Before they could leave, an elderly woman appeared and Oswald offered her the cab, but she said that the driver could call her one. Would you say that action is indicative of an assassin in flight?
Also, according to William Whaley’s cab manifest for the 22nd, the fare he picked up at the Greyhound bus station was at 12:30 PM. If accurate that would make it impossible for it to be Oswald since the shots were fired at 12:30 but Whaley testified that “I didn’t use a watch, I just guess, in other words, all my trips are marked about 15 minutes each”. However, looking at other times on the same manifest shows that this is not the case. http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=999
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/whaley1.htm
In his testimony to the Warren Commission, cab driver William Whaley was asked about the contradiction of his testimony and his affidavit. In his affidavit he identified the third man in the police lineup but testified that he picked the 2nd man. “I signed that statement before they carried me down to see the lineup. I signed this statement, and then they carried me down to the lineup at 2:30 in the afternoon.” He added that, “I signed my name because they said that is what I said.” http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0220b.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0221a.htm
Needless to say, defense counsel would have had a field day with Mr. Whaley on the stand.
I just feel things would make a lot more sense if more was known about Oswald’s Intelligence connections.
We have come a long way since 63 when the general public knew little.
A big round of applause is due to Morley, Shenon, Simpich, Peter Dale Scott & others for their very fine work regarding Oswald and U S Intelligence.
One can see U S Intelligence Interests were primairily being protected in 63. It was less important to give a fuller & more understandable story to the people who elected President John F. Kennedy.
It is a difficult Truth to accept.
One wonders if perhaps the whole truth can be known someday .
We must never forget a cruel and shocking act was committed followed by a huge Cover Up.
Excuse me but it is hard for we CTs to overlook all the confusing detail.
This story also has a lot to do with Cuba. More than we ever thought. Was Oswald used/and or did he slip.through hands of US Intelligence.
Thank you to all for your work pointing us in what I feel is the right direction.
I think one or two of those you mentioned might add John Newman and his “Oswald and the CIA”regarding Oswalds intelligence connections. I read it from a library but wish I had a copy for reference. If i remember right it’s well documented/sourced.
Best new evidence? The possible alteration of the Z film. Such an act would be proof positive of a massive cover up, not just to protect bureaucratic butts or state secrets, but a crucial disguise for the actual number of shots and/or shooters, directional source, their timing, and finale.
If Z-film frames were removed or altered, anywhere in its journey, then a preconceived conspiracy (to murder – not just to cover up) at the highest level, had to exist. To me, that could be the hard evidence that has the highest probably of definably answering the lone gunman question. “Follow the frames” should be a serious researcher’s mantra. From that, everything else could flow.
“If Z-film frames were removed or altered..”~Robert Paul
That is a big “if” however. The question would then arise, is it possible to remove or alter frames from a Kodachrome II film and produce an undetectable counterfeit?
According to Roland Zavada it is simply impossible. Who was Roland Zavada? He was the premier expert on film chemistry and movie making machinery of the era of film. He was the head of the development of the film stock, Kodachrome II.
Although I have given this link many times here, it seems a necessity to give it out yet again:
https://hybridrogue1.wordpress.com/2014/12/12/the-zapruder-film/
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Dear Willy – I don’t question Mr. Zavada’s credentials, they are substantial. I’m familiar with and respect his conclusions. However, you seem intelligent enough to know that “experts” have varied opinions on just about everything. I believe that, given enough time and expertise, just about anything can be done with film, especially when in the hands of the National Photographic Interpretation Center (NPIC) – a branch of the CIA. It’s a FACT that the Z film was in that Center within 24 hours after November 22, 1963. Why was it flown there immediately after the assassination? Certainly not for its development as that was completed in Dallas. What was (or not done) by the NPIC remains an interesting area for serious researchers to examine.
I don’t believe alteration is “impossible” as Mr. Zavada has stated. History proves that using the word “impossible” has made many smart people look dumb.
“..you seem intelligent enough to know that “experts” have varied opinions on just about everything.” ~Robert Paul
Yes indeed, and some are correct while others are mistaken. In determining which is which, it is not a matter of “belief” it is a matter of actual knowledge of the processes themselves.
. . . .
” just about anything can be done with film, especially when in the hands of the National Photographic Interpretation Center.” ~Robert Paul
This is hyperbole, there are limits to anything. These limits are clearly laid out by both Zavada and Raymond fielding. These are physical realities as true as you cannot breath water.
. . . .
“It’s a FACT that the Z film was in that Center within 24 hours after November 22, 1963.”~Robert Paul
It is not a FACT, that the original extant (in camera) film was delivered to the center. It is an assertion made by Doug Horne, and is disputed by many others.
It is much more plausible that the first day copies of the Z-film, known to be in possession of the Secret Service are the ones that were at the NPIC to be used for making the briefing boards.
All of this being said Mr Paul, you are certainly entitled to your own personal opinion. I will just say that in my opinion you have been grossly misinformed.
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Willy – I’m keeping an open mind on this issue and respectively ask that you do the same. Thank you.
You didn’t answer my question. Why was the Z film (original or otherwise) flown to the NPCI? What was the reason for that? Was it simply to make briefing boards? Was the NPCI Director mistaken when he said that he and others worked all night with the original Z film? He also said that the same film was then taken from his team by the SS. Where did it go from there? Do we know?
If we don’t know, then the possibility of tampering exists. With all due respect for Mr. Zavada, I doubt that he would be privy to, or familiar with, the high level of film resources the CIA had its disposal. Zavada did not have a need to know about the CIA’s assets or expertise in this area – did he?
Look at the CIA’s Hughes Glomar Explorer mission. Scientists in the Soviet Union and US said that task was “impossible” to perform. Regardless, the CIA prevailed. The science and methodology of film alteration pale in comparison.
“Why was the Z film (original or otherwise) flown to the NPCI? What was the reason for that? Was it simply to make briefing boards?”~Robert Paul
Yes, and no one from either team claimed to have made a movie – but only copied still frames to use for the briefing boards.
. . . .
“Was the NPCI Director mistaken when he said that he and others worked all night with the original Z film?”~Ibid
In my opinion, yes. I see no reason for them to even consider whether the film was the original or not, they had a job to perform and worked with the materials they were brought.
Remember no one was asked about any of this until years later – no controversy at the time, why would they be concerned with such details?
. . . .
“He also said that the same film was then taken from his team by the SS. Where did it go from there? Do we know?”~Ibid
They were the SS copies, that they took them back seems natural enough. I can only assume they went into SS evidence lockers.
. . . .
“With all due respect for Mr. Zavada, I doubt that he would be privy to, or familiar with, the high level of film resources the CIA had its disposal.”
With all due respect for you and all concerned I don’t think you or anyone can define what “level of film resources the CIA had its disposal,” and whether it is accurate that, as you claim “the science and methodology of film alteration pale in comparison.”
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Horne claims that the Z-film was altered at Hawkeyworks, not at the National Photographic Interpretation Center. If this is so, how is it that Brugioni saw “the original Z-film” that was different than what we see today? Horne claims that the films went to Hawkeyworks first. Horne does not infer or charge Brugioni or the Sunday team at NPIC were involved with the “alterations” – so neither team would have ever seen what we are told was an unaltered copy of the Z-film.
Doesn’t the reasoning here breakdown rather blatantly?
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Homer McMahon: “I have senile dementia…I can’t remember really anything. Most of my reflections are what I have recalled and remembered after the fact. In other words, I did it once, and then I recalled it, and remembered it. I don’t know how the mind works, but I do know I am not. I am a recovering drug addict and alcoholic. Do you know what a wet brain is? Well, you’re looking at one. I damn near died. And I’m not a competent witness because I don’t have accurate recall. I don’t have absolute recall.”
Jeremy Gunn: “With regards to the other events that you talked about, what is your sense of how accurate your memory is of that?”
Homer McMahon: “I just told you, I don’t have a full deck. I don’t know how (ha) I figured I am presenting anything here. This is not…at the time I did it I was not, I was not impaired, but I later became impaired. So whether you are talking to a reliable witness or not, that’s up for you to decide. (ha)”
. . . .
ARRB Interview with Homer McMahon:
http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2010/02/npic.html
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MDG.
Really? The only real fault of the WC their eating the pablum the FBI and the CIA fed to them in their attempt to keep connections to plots to kill Castro out of it. Face it. The FBI, CIA, and the SS. had much more on LHO and his nonsense than they wanted to have hung on their walls.
Sadly, since the 3 were not communicating (much like the NSA before 9-11) little piss-ants like Oswald were able to pull off the assassination simply by being in the right place, with the right mentality, at just the right time.
6th Floor. 1 Gun. Purchased by MO with an alias LHO had used before, with handwriting linked to him through 3 different sources from multiple periods of his own life. With an Alias his wife spoke about afterward. Containing his palm print, with his ‘curtain rod’ package nearby. Among 3 spent shells..and on and on.
Sorry. Peace.
Was that the bag that Wesley Frazier and his sister said was, at most, 27 inches long?
Bob I can’t resist. You mean the curtain rods inside the bag tucked under his arm pit and cupped in his hand?
But you well know that’s not long enough for even a disassembled long or short version of the Carcano found but not the same as what was ordered.
I thought the bag story was discredited years ago but don’t remember where I read this.
Yeah….that one. I’m not sure of the ability of Frazier or his sister to identify the length of a package. I’m glad you’re willing to hang your hat on this ‘fact’. Oh boy.
How did that money order get from Dallas to Chicago and deposited in the bank by Klien’s in the 1963 mail in a day’s time? Especially since Oswald was working when it was mailed across town? Who did pick up the rifle at the post office? Where is the required postal form for picking up a firearm, supposed to have been kept on file for what two years. And on and on.
BTW, have you heard? Jack Ruby really DID have MOB connections!
Obviously you have no recollection of AirMail.
You can put this ” required postal form” nonsense to bed with the other CT falsehoods. Please post any reliable source that confirms such a form existed- for RIFLES.
There were reasons why the mail order purchase of firearms became severely restricted after 1964- many related to the institutional lack of documentation associated with purchases such as Oswald’s.
Oh yea!!! “Airmail” wow, how clever Photon.
Yea I used Airmail lots of times. I could get a letter to someone by the next day…with a lot of luck.
But I never experienced getting a letter off, and a reply within a single day… and YOU?
So Oswald, who was at work, got an airmail letter off, and it arrived on the same day, and then the check in that letter, was sent – by airmail of course, and arrived at the bank, on the same day! Yup the US Post Office was practically magical as soon as the Wright Bros proved their point … ain’t technology a wunnerful thing?
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Willy,
Photon has a different postal service that you and I enjoy!
Technicality Willie but it was a Postal Money Order. A numbered one. From a series the rest of which were not used until late 1964. “It was never cashed, deposited or went through the Federal Reserve system”.(see the link I provided in a post earlier). It was found late on 11/22 by a National Archives employee (Not a Postal employee!) in a Arlington Virginia Postal Facility. Not the Kansas city postal facility where unpaid Dallas money orders were stored.
Your right about Air Mail. It was certainly not UPS/FedEx guaranteed next day delivery (much less by 10:30 or noon, even at a premium).
Photon,
PLEASE put to rest for all of us that the CIA and the FBI and the DPD did a thorough and accurate and complete investigation of the murder of the most powerful man in the free world by providing us with a reliable explanation why authors such as Shenon and Warren investigators like Slawson have said—all within the last year—that the CIA and the FBI withheld, suppressed, distorted, and misled the investigation at every turn? Why don’t you answer that most FUNDAMENTAL question FIRST, and then we can have an honest discussion about JFK’s murder? Surely, Photon, you remember honesty? That little thing that Helms and Hoover and Curry did NOT understand or hope to provide the American people.
The honest answer is that the CIA and FBI knew more about Oswald than they volunteered, but not as much as they should have; they never recognized him as a potentially dangerous individual.Considering that he had never exhibited any known acts of violence that doesn’t seem inappropriate, although with 20/20 hindsight it can be criticized as negligence.
In addition, the CIA was striving to protect sensitive intelligence sources, such as the surveillance techniques at the Cuban Embassy.How do you think they got that intelligence? Somebody at the Embassy had access to conversations that took place there; as soon as this info came out that individual was compromised and that conduit for information ceased..
Photon:
As much as I appreciate your first-ever candid response, I will help you AGAIN in regards to the CIA, FBI, and the DPD. All three organizations were led by men that were LIARS. They LIED in 63, and they continued to LIE until they died, or were fired, or retired. You are being disingenious when you say that they knew much more than they volunteered. They volunteered NOTHING! Let me repeat what you and I have already discussed. Hoover was ONLY able to keep his job because he kept secret pictures and files and transcripts of power players in his “files.” It was NOT because he was an exceptional lawman. He knew how to play the game, and he played it well. He was a fraud when he started, and he remained a fraud until he died. Imagine being able to keep your job ONLY because you had illegally obtained pictures of people having sex! Quite a resume, wouldn’t you say?
Helms knew Whitten was going to try and actually investigate JFK’s murder. So, he replaced him with a drunken bozo, Angleton. Angleton was then able to stonewall and lie to your beloved WC, because he knew Helms would cover anything and everything with the BOGUS “national security” ruse. Helms SHOULD have been in jail for perjury, You know that as well as I. The reason he wasn’t is because Earl Warren lacked the courage and the guts to do a proper shakedown of everyone involved. He simply believed on “ggod faith” that these two agencies would “do the right thing.”
Curry? Even you can’t defend his actions. Oh, wait, he was trying “to sell books.” Isn’t that what you accuse every person who disagrees with your beloved WR of doing? I believe that to be hypocritical of you.
Please continue to spout all of the “facts” that the FBI gave us. And continue to point to the “evidence” the CIA released to the WC. However, and you know this, they were run by LIARS. If you wish to believe a LIAR, that is your right as an American. The truth will eventually come out, but it won’t be in our lifetime. But you can rest easy knowing that you helped create a government that continues to function on lies.
Exactly WHAT did the FBI, the CIA and the DPD lie about? Please be specific about what aspect of the JFK assassination these institutions lied about.You keep making these blanket statements without any supporting evidence.it is entirely understandable that the Federal agencies wanted to keep confidential operations under wraps-and functioning. The very productive Mexico City source of intelligence was sacrificed once the investigation started to trace Oswald’s activities there.That was truly a heavy price to pay merely to find out that Oswald wanted to go to Cuba.And what specifically did the DPD lie about? They went overboard trying to assist the press-to the point of letting a murder suspect have a press conference and letting cameras and the networks cover Oswald’s transfer to the county jail.Obviously they thought that cooperating with the press might keep them from asking how they failed to protect the President.You don’t aid and support a conspiracy by hanging out your dirty linen
I don’t understand how you can’t see that clearly incompetent actions rarely have sinister overtones. That seems a common trait among the CT community. Sometimes somebody just f—- up-a prime example being Agent Hosty., who ignored Oswald’s threat.
Photon trusts the credibility of James Jesus Angleton, the man who gave away an untold number of secrets to Communist traitor Kim Philby, causing the death of dozens or hundreds of agents and Soviet moles.
Yeah, the same Angleton who did untold damage to national security and died telling people he was going to his grave with secrets. A drunken lout who thought he was above the law.
But photon thinks that man and his confederates just made an honest mistake. Unbelievable.
Photon:
I have given you multiple examples of lying and destruction of evidence and failure to provide the WC all the information that it asked for during its “investigation.” I have given you Blakey, Gunn, Shenon, Slawson, and Morley. You NEVER answer anything directly. You ask everyone on this site to give you a credible source, but in return you will not answer any question without flipping and flopping and “quoting” your beloved WC.
Here is one for you. David Slawson, on this site, said the WC did the best it could with the information it received. He continues to say that he now knows he was naive and that the CIA withheld information that would have changed his outlook. He further says that he now believes LHO was not the “lone wolf” that the WC once believed. How do YOU explain why an actual member of your beloved WC would make those statements? Care to actually answer that question directly?
If you do answer that one, then we can proceed to Morley and his book, and from there we can talk about MC and the evidence that was destroyed, changed, not given, manipulated, etc.
Care to have a real discussion?
“Exactly WHAT did the FBI, the CIA and the DPD lie about?”~Photon
The biggest lie of them all, ‘The Magic Bullet’
The chain of custody for CE399 is simply nonexistent.
And Yes, Hoover’s initials are on official docs claiming CE399 is authentic. He is nailed red-handed.
http://www.jfklancer.com/hunt/mystery.html
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Photon:
Even your reference to agent Hosty is more than likely a LIE. It all depends on whom you believe. You see, Photon, when you base your “facts” on information obtained from LIARS, you have to make the tricky choice of which LIAR you are going to “believe.” Here is a quote from Shenon’s book A Cruel and Shocking Act. Maybe you will respond to this series of quotes DIRECTLY, instead of your usual waffling.
Pages 211-212:
” The national security case file on Oswald, opened after he returned from Russia in 1962, had actually been closed by another FBI agent in Texas; that agent thought Oswald posed no obvious threat. It was Hosty who had reopened the file.”
According to you, Photon, Hosty f—– up. That sure does not sound like a Hosty f—– to me. It sounds like to me an INCOMPETENT FBI. Remind me, Photon, who was in charge of the FBI in 63? Oh, yes, I remember, J. Edgar “I have my job because I have a picture of you having sex with someone other than your wife” Hoover.
Page 212:
” He sensed, almost from the start, that FBI headquarters was determined to end the investigation quickly—with Oswald identified as the sole assassin—whatever the facts. THERE WAS NO EAGERNESS TO SEARCH FOR A POSSIBLE FOREIGN CONSPIRACY, which made Hosty suspect that something was being hidden from him. “I didn’t know what was going obj back in Washington,” he said. “But , SOMETHING WAS AFOOT.”
Now, Photon, do you believe Hosty, who might be trying to cover his ass? Or, do you believe Hoover, who was incompetent and trying to cover the bureau’s ass?
Photon, care to answer or address Hosty’s comments? Or do you wish to avoid the issue and ask me AGAIN to give you specific examples? Because I CANNOT give you any more SPECIFIC example than the direct quotes of the man who was responsible for LHO before the assassination.
Your turn.
A lot of innuendo , but nothing specific.
Give me one example of a demonstrable lie told by the CIA or FBI in this case.Just one.
Photon:
Nope. I am not going to play your game anymore unless and until YOU answer my questions about what Hosty said about his own employer, the vaunted FBI. I am not going to give YOU one more example UNTIL you provide the same courtesy that you demand of everyone on this site. You tell me who YOU think is doing the better job of covering its ass—Hosty or Hoover. When YOU do that, then I will provide you MORE examples of lies.
As it stands right now, Helms, Hoover, and Curry were either liars, incompetent, or BOTH.
You answer my questions for a change, and then I will answer yours.
Care to have a real discussion about JFK’s murder?
Who lied?
About what?
When?
If you can’t produce a single example I can understand why you don’t want to “play the game”.
You have fallen in the CVer habit of making claims that you can’t substantiate.
Photon:
How about this truthfulness about Mr. Helms:
“Little wonder, once the immediate Agency problems caused by the assassination going askew, especially in Mexico City, were resolved by Angleton, that Helms was its liaison with the Warren Commission. Assured that neither Commissioner Dulles nor Ford would question anything about Agency activities, Helms volunteered nothing, as he had previously done with DCI McCone, about its mind control programs, its use of Oswald and Mafiosos, and Harvey’s and FitzGerald’s independent efforts to assassinate Castro, much less what he had contributed.”
Does that quote not say that Helms was the liaison between the CIA and your beloved WC, and that he “volunteered NOTHING?”
Didn’t Helms later say—I believe it was in Shenon’s book—that the CIA gave the WC “everything it asked for?”
Of course, all of this depends on your definition of the word “liar.”
Your turn.
Photon:
Then there is little nugget from Mr. Morley, the man who gives us ALL a voice in JFK’s murder. (Whether or not you wish to ask him for “one example” where the CIA lied is up to YOU!)
‘At least five undercover officers reporting directly or indirectly to Helms (David Phillips, Win Scott, Ann Goodpasture, John Whitten, Bill Hood, and Tom Karameesines) knew about the travels, politics, and contacts of a young man named Lee Oswald before President Kenned was killed.
.
The proof of their knowledge is found in this CIA cable about Oswald, dated October 10, 1963. Six weeks later, the man whom they were writing about allegedly killed the president of the United States.
Helms and his colleagues concealed their knowledge of Oswald from investigators. Instead of losing his job, he served another decade. He died in October 2002.”
Pardon me for asking, dear Photon, but doesn’t the phrase “concealed their knowledge of Oswald from investigators” mean that Helms and his “buddies” LIED to the WC about Oswald. Isn’t that the word I am wanting to use? LIARS?
Again, your turn.
Photon:
I have ANOTHER little nugget for you. This comes from Mr. Blakey. As you are well aware, Mr. Blakey has FAR more knowledge and insight into this case than you or I. Care to explain what he is saying? Here is his quote:
“I now no longer believe anything the Agency told the committee any further than I can obtain substantial corroboration for it from outside the Agency for its veracity. We now know that the Agency withheld from the Warren Commission the CIA-Mafia plots to kill Castro. Had the commission known of the plots, it would have followed a different path in its investigation. The Agency unilaterally deprived the commission of a chance to obtain the full truth, which will now never be known.
Significantly, the Warren Commission’s conclusion that the agencies of the government co-operated with it is, in retrospect, not the truth.
We also now know that the Agency set up a process that could only have been designed to frustrate the ability of the committee in 1976-79 to obtain any information that might adversely affect the Agency.
Many have told me that the culture of the Agency is one of prevarication and dissimulation and that you cannot trust it or its people. Period. End of story.
I am now in that camp.”
Anyone interested in pursuing this story further should consult the reporting by Jefferson Morley of the Washington Post. See, e.g., Jefferson Morley, “Revelation 19.63″ Miami New Times (April 2001).
Gee, Photon, here is another highly credible source—an expert—as you call them, saying, on record, that the CIA LIED in this case. I wonder how Blakey’s statement fits into Photon’s Paradox?
Photon,
Speaking of a paradox, it REALLY must be troubling, irksome, disconcerting, and frightening to realize that the WR, the report that you place absolute faith and hope in, was written by politicians using information given to them by two agencies that may have provided, what do you think a good number might be—30%—of what they actually knew about LHO? You see, old friend, when you base your “facts” on the words of LIARS, you are forced to decide what is truth and what is a lie. Of course, you can stick your head in the sand and hope for the best, but I prefer to look at an issue objectively. For example, if Al Capone wanted to give me advice on how to be a good neighbor, I would probably be a tad skeptical. Likewise, if an agency that has overthrown foreign governments in the recent past tells me that they are telling all they know about an assassination of this magnitude, I would, again, be a tad skeptical.
Believing liars does place one into a terrible paradox, doesn’t it Photon?
Photon:
Here is another nugget from Shenon’s book that will show YOU about the CIA and its lying about this case. Maybe this one will be the one that helps you understand how lying happens?
Page 547:
“From other declassified CIA files, we know, FOR CERTAIN, another secret that Angleton would have been eager to keep: that his elite counterintelligence staff had kept an eye on Oswald—illegally—as far back as 1959, four years before the assassination. THIS WAS A FULL YEAR BEFORE THE DATE THE CIA GAVE TO THE WARREN COMMISSION FOR THE AGENCY’S FIRST FILES ON OSWALD”
Gee, Photon, refresh my memory, when you tell someone a date and that date is wrong BY A YEAR, does that not indicate that you are LYING? I am pretty sure that does qualify as lying, but I curious as to your take on this quote.
I remember a house in the country with two mail boxes. One about 3-4′ high. The other on about a 12′ pole specifically labeled for “Air Mail”.
It was Postal Form 2162 as noted in this article.
http://harveyandlee.net/Guns/Guns.html
Postal form 2162 refers only to CONCEALABLE firearms.You have been had.
I requested a reputable source-John Armstrong is a two Oswald conspiracy advocate with no credibility outside of the CT community.
Can you provide a source? I did a web search and didn’t find it. I’d like to see it and read the instructions. I know form 1508 is for gun dealers. But I’ve read Postal Regulation 846.53a required “delivery receipts had to be filled out for firearms shipped through the mail”.
Another interesting discussion on the subject from a few years back.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17511
You ( and many CTers) have brought this subject up-the least you could do is get your facts straight. You claim that Form 2162 covers all firearms.
Prove it. Not with conspiracy sources nor the Education Forum, but real evidence.Until You can prove that this entire 2162 claim is a myth,just like the Hathcock myth, just like the inaccurate and inadequate Carcano myth,just like the Beverly Oliver myth,or the Judy Baker myth or the Adele Edisen myth.
Why do CTers have to resort to myths and made-up stories to bolster their case?
Somewhere on this site Jean Davison covered this issue and gave a source. Oswald’s rifle required no delivery receipt. Remember reading it and checking. Just can’t find it now.
These old postal regulations say that Form 2162 “delivery receipts, firearms” were required for “all mailings covered by this section.” Scroll up to the preceding page (50) to see that “this section” is “125.5 Concealable firearms”:
https://books.google.com/books?id=QCE7AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA51&dq=%22form+2162%22+firearms&hl=en&sa=X&ei=J7JLVY7AG4LvggThxIH4CA&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22form%202162%22%20firearms&f=false
The 2162 form would have been required for a handgun but not for Oswald’s rifle.
Armstrong also claims, “this letter [to Klein’s] was picked up by a mail carrier sometime after 10:30 am in zone 12, delivered to the post office in zone 7.” This is apparently based on nothing but his assumptions about what the numbers on the postmark mean. According to David von Pein’s research, Armstrong is wrong about this, too — the “12” was not a postal zone but a machine at the same P.O. where Oswald bought the money order, and 10:30 was the time the envelope was processed:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html
The problems establishing Oswald’s possession of the alleged murder weapon are myriad, as John Armstrong and others have demonstrated. So while clarifying the language of postal regulations helps understand procedure, it does not mitigate the fact that there is no evidence in the record to show Oswald’s receipt of the rifle. The Official Story simply assumes his possession. Likewise, clarifying Dallas postal markings helps understand procedure, but we are still faced with Oswald’s work record which shows him busy throughout the morning in question (and not making a 22 block round trip to the post office).
Similarly, air mail or not, it is not just that the order letter arrived in Chicago from Dallas the next day – it’s that the order was received and processed at Klein’s in less than a day. The postal money order was never cashed. Klein’s microfilmed records went missing while in possession of the FBI. A 36″ rifle was ordered, but the rifle found at the TSBD was larger. An MC rifle with the correct serial # was sold to Klein’s in June 1962, not February 1963 as claimed by the FBI. And so on…
Photon can rail against “myths” and “made-up stories” all he wants, but the one important glaring fact here is that the official investigations could never establish proof that Oswald was ever in possession of the alleged murder weapon.
Lee Oswald could not have had C2766 delivered to him. He could not have received a rifle that was mailed to “A. Hidell” at PO Box 2915 because that name was not on the authorized list of recipients. WC Exhibit No. 2585, page 4 shows that the WC had the PO Box application.
This document is unequivocal proof from the FBI that the only authorized mail recipient at 2915 was Lee Oswald. Claim 12 on the bottom left of the left facing page. There, in the FBI’s own words is the damning evidence.
“Our investigation has revealed that Oswald did not indicate on his application that others, including an ‘A. Hidell’, would receive mail through the box in question, which was Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas…”
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/wh25_ce_2585.pdf
The Warren Commission lied through its teeth in order to make Lee Oswald the guilty party in any way it could. This is just one more example of many, but it’s blatant. The WC stated in its report: “It is not known whether the application for post office box 2915 listed ‘A. Hidell’ as a person entitled to receive mail at this box.”
It WAS known, and their own evidence shows that they knew it. There is nothing ambiguous about the FBI wording. It clearly states that only Lee and no one else could receive mail there. Coupled with the fact that no postal employee ever remembered delivering a package of any sort to the PO Box, let alone one large enough to contain a rifle, it conclusively shows that the entire FBI story of the rifle was a fabrication.
Jeff,
There certainly *is* evidence that Oswald received the rifle. There’s just no evidence of it that you will accept.
The record that you say shows Oswald busy at work when the rifle was picked up was a time sheet filled out by Oswald himself. He didn’t have to make a round trip to the P.O. if he picked up the package before or after work.
“The postal money order was never cashed” according to who? Armstrong, right? If it wasn’t cashed, did Klein’s ship the rifle anyway for free? What’s the story there, please? Researchers have pointed out many anomalies in the record but never explain what they think happened. IMO, if these anomalies are meaningful they should reveal a narrative that makes sense. (These don’t.)
The different rifle lengths is another anomaly that doesn’t add up to anything. The serial number of the rifle shipped is the same as the one found in the TSBD.
Oswald responded to a February 1963 ad for a 36″ M-C, but after February Klein’s M-C ads were for a 40″ model with the very same catalog number, price, and photo. Evidently Klein’s considered the 36″ and 40″ models as interchangeable. Again, if that’s not right, what’s the alternate explanation? Did someone find and substitute a rifle of a different length with the same serial number? What would be the point of that?
Here are sample Klein’s ads:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/kleins_ads.jpg
Thank You Jean Davison! I think the link you provided clarifies some things.
https://books.google.com/books?id=QCE7AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA51&dq=%22form+2162%22+firearms&hl=en&sa=X&ei=J7JLVY7AG4LvggThxIH4CA&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22form%202162%22%20firearms&f=false
Page 50, Section 125.5 concerns Concealable Firearms, (A) When Mailable.
Pg. 51 continues (D) Identification of Addressee. Postmaster at the office of delivery shall require addressee …to call at the Post Office and establish identification to the satisfaction of the Post Master. The parcel may then be delivered after the addressee signs a receipt which shall be filed by the Postmaster for not less than three years. Receipts for delivery shall be taken on FORM 2162, “Delivery Receipts. Firearms”.
Manufacturers an dealers were exempt.
SO, 2162 applied to Oswald’s pistol, but was never requested.
However, section (H) on the same page confuses the issue. “Non Mailable Firearms”. Pistols, revolvers…capable of being concealed on the person, addressed to persons other than the persons other than those indicated in section A (Military, FBI) are NON MAILABLE and shall not be received or carried in the mails.
So, it was illegal to mail a pistol or revolver to anyone other than the Military or FBI?
If you skip through page 52 and Switchblades and Motor Vehicle master keys to page 53 you find:
125.9 “Notice of Delivery of Rifles, Shotguns and other mailable firearms.”
(C) Recording and disclosure of deliveries. The Postmaster of the addressee of any such parcel shall make in triplicate a record of FORM 3767. Notice of Delivery of Firearms, of the name and address of the addressee of such parcel. One copy of this record shall be supplied to the chief law enforcement officer for the community specified in the parcel address. The third copy shall be furnished to the Postal Inspector when and requested by such service. Postmasters are also authorized to disclose these records of firearm deliveries to any Federal or State law enforcement agency upon request therefore.
So it was 2162 for the pistol and 3761 for the rifle, both required to be kept on file.
Thanks again Jean.
Jean, are you lost? Oswald missed time at work supposedly to get the Postal Money Order to Order it, not to pick it up.