Photon – February 9
As of 4:46 this AM I posted proof that Talbot obviously lied. It is there, if you are willing to look.
It is perhaps the most damning evidence that I have ever posted refuting a conspiracy falsehood.
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Did anyone save the PDFs from Princeton? All the links are currently broken and Princeton seems to be claiming that they don’t know anything about Dulles calendars from 1963. I would like to see the primary documentation behind this debate…
Thank you…
Italy is important. I’d like to see the records on Bill Harvey and his travels in 1963 in particular. If I was filing a FOIA request.
There is no basis for suggesting that David Talbot lied.
He was, however, wrong about Dulles’ 11/22 weekend.
On September 9 and November 8, there were discussions of arrangements for Dulles’ 11/22 talk to Brookings people in Williamsburg (adjacent to the Farm), including the specific flight from DC to Newport News:
https://webspace.princeton.edu/users/mudd/digitalObjects/MC019.09/ML.2007.004/online/Correspondence_Appointment_Call_Diaries_1945-1968/19630909_0000034486.pdf
http://www.princeton.edu/mudd/finding_aids/MC019.09/Correspondence_Appointment_Call_Diaries_1945-1968/19631101_0000034503.pdf
The Appointment & Call Diary for 11/22 describes the return to Washington:
https://webspace.princeton.edu/users/mudd/digitalObjects/MC019.09/ML.2007.004/online/Correspondence_Appointment_Call_Diaries_1945-1968/19631122_0000034513.pdf
The desk calendar recorded the planned “Weekend at Farm”:
https://webspace.princeton.edu/users/mudd/digitalObjects/MC019.09/ML.2007.004/online/Calendars_1942-1967/19631122_0000481282.pdf
Yes he lied. He claimed that Dulles spent the weekend at the Farm and claimed his last trip on Nov. 22 was to travel to Williamsburg to get away from Wahington because he conspired to kill JFK. That is a lie. If he didn’t know Dulles’ itinerary why did he lie and claim that he did?
As far as I can tell this is the first serious investigation of a central claim of Talbot that Dulles was an accessory to murder.What is his answer to his false claims?
“a central claim of Talbot that Dulles was an accessory to murder.”~Photon
But is that so? Is this really the “central claim” in Talbot’s book? I would argue that it isn’t at all THE central claim. Talbut’s prequel to the assertion is a portrait of a man imbued with the soul of a pathological killer and liar, who had collaborated with the Nazi’s before, during and after WWII.
It is the Dulles MO, his routine means and tactics throughout his whole life, that point to him as an obvious suspect in the murder of JFK and the military coup d’etat that it was.
It is not argued here that Dulles was the sole party behind the coup, it is argued that he was part of a larger overall plan that included the Joint Chiefs. A plan designed by the premier expert in coups d’etat, General Edward Landsdale.
The sum of the compartments of this conspiracy were revealed in the Jim Garrison probe in 1967. And this has been looked into extensively on this site as well.
So let’s cut the hyperbole Photon, and quit narrowing the focus on a large complex case with many tributaries coming together on 11/22/1963.
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And yet CTers claim that there is a picture of Lansdale in Deal Plaza-even though the individuals face cannot be seen! And a bunch of shadows is a man with a gun on the Grassy Knoll. And a vague figure that is called Prayer Man ( or Women) is positively identified as multiple individuals-including Lee Oswald. But the individuals in the CBS videotape could not be Mr. And Mrs. Dulles. Well, who are they? Please note that initial visitors after the morning Mass were initially federal government officials, then members of Congress, then Governors. The diplomatic Corps was to attend about 5:00 PM. From about 3:00-5:00 PM the line of cars slowed as non-official visitors and people not presently active in the government came to pay respects-people such as the retired Allen Dulles.
The couple in question arrived at the White House between 4:00 and 5:00 PM.
Dulles was an accessory to murder as a result of his failure in WWII to pass on to FDR his knowledge that Jew’s were being gassed in the concentration camps.
You think he wouldn’t be so against the man who fired him? Working at the behest of his employers?
You know nothing about Roosevelt and the Jews -yet you blame Dulles for inaction. On July 28, 1943 Franklin Roosevelt was personally informed by Polish secret agent Jan Karski that Jews were being exterminated in concentration camps in the presence of prominent Americans, including Supreme Court justice Felix Frankfurter.
Roosevelt declined to act.
Your claim that Dulles was responsible for Roosevelt’s inaction is bull—- and reflects not historical fact, but ideological slander.
It is getting thick with the lies around here.
Photon, I hate to say this, but I agree with you that it’s silly to blame Dulles for FDR’s inaction to help Jews. In the context of the time, I suspect few US leaders cared much about the fate of the Jews.
That said, I think it very likely that Dulles cared less than anybody about the fate of the Jews in Europe, and would have supported and/or encouraged FDR’s inaction. Do you think his heart bled at the thought of injustice or mass murder in the world?
Just what could U.S. officials have done about the slaughter of Jews in Europe?
Ask Hitler nicely to stop it?
What eventually was done was to take Europe back from the Nazi armies. But that could not happen immediately.
Paulf,
Both brothers, Allen and John Foster Dulles were psychopaths. They had no interests beyond raw political power. The meme of “Might is Right” drives these types.
And lesser psychopaths admire and praise them as role models. To these ‘people’ reason is used like a whore through rhetorical gamesmanship. The goal for them is to win the game at any cost.
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Wall Street and FDR
By Antony C. Sutton
https://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sutton_Wall_Street_and_FDR-3.pdf
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“Just what could U.S. officials have done about the slaughter of Jews in Europe?”~McAdams
Selective bombing raids that avoided the Industrial Concentration Camps, were part of a plan to DO NOTHING about the slaughter of the Jews in WWII.
These industrial conglomerates were international, with US boards of directors sharing directing with the Nazi directors.
Hitler was financed by Wall Street, just like Lenin and Trotsky were. It’s called BIG BUSINESS. It is called CORPORATISM. And it is and was international.
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Photon, if FDR chose not to act on receiving the information elsewhere does that excuse Dulles from withholding the information? Or his other operations at this time elsewhere, later in Italy?
“Just what could U.S. officials have done about the slaughter of Jews in Europe?” — John McAdams
Who are you kidding. You know well the controversy related to the US failure to bomb Auschwitz and/or the rail lines. You know that as a US Government official, Asst. Sec. of War John McCloy argued it would be ‘dangerous’ and unwise given the flying time etc. that would detract from the US focus on Hitler’s troops elsewhere. As a political scientist you are also aware that McCloy later positioned the blame on Roosevelt when in fact at best it should have been shared. McCloy referenced “some fanatical Jews” when he reflected on the controversy. It shall be noted, for the umpteenth time on this site that John McCloy held a pivotal role on the Warren commission.
Tom, you should also give kudos for this weeks comment to Bill Kelly and John Wayne as it was in reply to / about them. I liked the Liberty Valance comparison. One public shooter, another from cover. What a concept.
It’s kind of hard to accept the assertion that someone is lying from a person who lies about his own name.
BK
Bill, look at the video. You will be able to see with your own eyes that Talbot bought the Farm-and deliberately lied.
Photon,
Where are the links to the Dulles papers on the Mudd site you referred to?
I do not think that is Dulles in that video.
I would say with 90% certainty that is NOT Allen Dulles.
4 points:
1. his nose is angled differently than that of Dulles’ nose
2. his nose is much shorter and the nostrils show, where they do not in the photo of Dulles at the right.
https://www.oathkeepers.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/AllenDulles.jpg
3. Dulles almost always wore those round lens glasses – different from those in the CBS photo.
4. And most obvious, Dulles did not have that much hair.
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Then what is he doing with Clover Dulles?
What makes you think that is Clover Dulles?
If you can’t distinguish between Dulles and some man with a full head of hair, why should you trust your visual acuity in IDing the woman that man is with?
You are waiting perhaps for the UPS man to bring you those Dulles papers from the Mudd collection?
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Dancing with the invisible man?
Are you suggesting that the commentator was familiar with George Meany yet he wouldn’t have recognized Allen Dulles? And given the weather, the time of year, I would have bet that Allen Dulles would have been limping; this individual is quite spry, with a full head of hair and facial structure unlike any photos I’ve ever seen of Allen Dulles. Photos I’ve seen of Clover indicate she had much softer and more delicate features than the woman entering the White House along side a grey-haired man with wire rimmed glasses. (I’ll bet Dulles would have loved to have had that head of hair at that stage in his life.) A little more substantive proof please, photon.
To be clear with a link and date/time stamp; this is the claim made by Photon:
“The previously mentioned Mudd collection documents completely impeach Talbot’s claims-and reveal that his research activities do not extend to evaluating genuine historical documents.”~Photon on,February 8, 2016 at 8:05 pm
https://jfkfacts.org/assassination/a-conversation-with-david-talbot/#comment-856981
. . . . .
Photon asserts that these documents; “completely impeach Talbot’s claims.” However Photon makes no mention of any specific document, nor in what way that document impeaches any specific claim by Talbot.
By so asserting such claims Photon explicitly implies that he has read said relevant documents. If that is the case, Photon should have access at his fingertips to the link or links to said documents.
Now, rather than provide links to these documents, which Photon asserts are “damning” and conclusive evidence that Talbot is “lying”; Photon offers instead a blurry segment of a video, claiming certain individuals in that segment are Allen and Clover Dulles.
Further Photon does not specify how, if this were indeed he, the presence of Allen Dulles at this particular time and place can be interpreted as an alibi for the rest of the day.
Now as to the bold and boasting quote above by Dr Photon:
“It is perhaps the most damning evidence that I have ever posted refuting a conspiracy falsehood.”
This hyperbole may very well be so, by token of the fact that Photon has never posted any convincing or damning evidence refuting a conspiracy falsehood.
Photon’s credibility, already dangling by a thread, is close to being impeached entirely by this pathetic affair.
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I have no more questions Your Honor…
Bailiff, whack his peepee.
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I approved Willy’s post despite my misgivings that the dialogue it quotes may not be recognized or understood
by younger readers. It happens to be a quote from a skit performed by the late 1960’s Firesign Theatre players, of which Phil Proctor was one of four members.
The quote in Willy’s comment is from this album, titled:
This is from Phil Proctor’s blog, and land sakes, I have to apologize, I seem to have forgotten how to include
links in my comments!
My own observation, posted several years ago in a JFK assassination discussion on another site.:
He needed a haircut-if you look at pictures of Dulles he ketpt his hair short, not that he was bald I agree that the hair is dissimilar, but we do not have any photos that I know of documenting Dulles hair length during the last half of 1963. The rest of the features are similar-to the limit of resolution of 1963 videotape.
The fedora with upturned brim.
The round wire rimmed glasses.
The height.
The mustache.
The side profile upon leaving the car.
The company he keeps-a woman who looks like Clover Dulles, who has Clover Dulles’ nose ( seen in profile) , who has the same masculine appearance that she had ( sorry Leslie, she didn’t have delicate features).
I refer you to the Nov 28 ,1961 photo of Dulles getting a medal from JFK. While the hair on the top of his head is not as full as on the videotape, the sides are similar as is the profile seen while leaving the car. The wife is a match.
But if it isn’t Dulles, who is it? And why would he be with a Dulles’ wife-or her twin?
photon, bottom line, if you are relying on this video as some sort of solid proof, you’re certainly on thin ice. Not to get into a silly exchange over subjective assessment of someone’s features, but I would venture most women would say that Clover, at least in photos available online, appears to have more delicate features than the woman seen entering the White House. (see first link) The woman in the CBS video – although wearing some type of eyewear – has larger eyes than Clover appears to have. And Clover was shorter in relation to her husband than this woman is to her companion. (same photo, first link).
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xt/161906381.jpg?v=1&g=fs2%7C0%7Ceditorial122%7C06%7C381&s=1
Dulles had a prominent jaw, this man in the CBS video does not. (min. 9:12) As Willy Whitten has pointed out the nostrils are significantly dissimilar. The left ear of the man in the CBS video (at 9:08) does not appear to have the same slight anomaly as does Allen Dulles best seen in the photographs, fourth row, 4th and 5th photos here.
https://www.google.com/search?q=clover+dulles&biw=1280&bih=563&tbm=isch&imgil=GhklyJCfUC7-YM%253A%253BWnWxPr5_1dyB6M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.findagrave.com%25252Fcgi-bin%25252Ffg.cgi%25253Fpage%2525253Dgr%25252526GRid%2525253D9068853&source=iu&pf=m&fir=GhklyJCfUC7-YM%253A%252CWnWxPr5_1dyB6M%252C_&usg=__bnFgum1Azzmp9eh50iWcQp2iqU0%3D&ved=0ahUKEwinx4Tk1u3KAhXrwYMKHZYcA-0QyjcIKw&ei=j227VufDF-uDjwSWuYzoDg#imgdii=BZe06F5kP_jR4M%3A%3BBZe06F5kP_jR4M%3A%3Bnd8YGTK4fL7KwM%3A&imgrc=BZe06F5kP_jR4M%3A&usg=__bnFgum1Azzmp9eh50iWcQp2iqU0%3D
Correction: as the link opens from this site, the anomaly of Dulles’ left ear is seen in the 4th (full) row of photographs, photos 2 and 3 from the left.
The CBS footage on YouTube is ambiguous concerning Alan Dulles’s presence at the White House wake on 11/23.
However, knowing contemporaries of JBK, I am certain Mrs. Kennedy had her guests sign a book of remembrance upon their arrival. Mr. and Mrs. Dulles would have signed this book before meeting Mrs. Kennedy.
The book, I am sure, still exists. It may be part of the White House archive. More likely, it was taken by JBK when she left. I knew the GAO official who had to sign off on the items Mrs. Kennedy took when she left the White House. Many were unauthorized, according to him, but the senior staff felt uncomfortable objecting to anything she asked, and let her take anything she desired.
My best guess is that the book of remembrance is probably in the custody of Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg. She has never indicated any interest in the questions surrounding her father’s murder, for obvious reasons. Perhaps her children, who never knew JFK or JBK, will someday open an entirely new archive relating to this case.
Photon,
Of course you realize even if Dulles is the man in the photo, and was there on Saturday the 23rd, that does not preclude Dulles spending the evening of the 22nd at the Ranch in a meeting of celebration with the top tier of the coup plotters?
Meanwhile it becomes ludicrously obvious that your claims to the Mudd collection’s Dulles papers was a bluff.
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ed connor, I don’t know how closely you’ve followed the evolution of the JFK Library outside Boston, but it’s a fascinating history. There is very little visual reference to the assassination; most of that detail can only be found in the hard copy files. Obviously they chose to honour Kennedy’s legacy and not obsess on or allow his murder to eclipse his life. More disturbing in my view is the current list of major contributors with whom obviously Caroline appears at various events. Of course the library requires financial resources, and it’s only natural the bulk of that funding will come from local and regional individuals and corporations, but there is heavy representation from those very entities that surface in any study of who did and did not support Jack Kennedy’s agenda. It’s worth a look if you’re interested. I don’t hold my breath waiting for Caroline to establish an assassination resource venue of any kind.
This video is your “damning evidence” that Talbott “lied?” Please. The man exiting the car at the 9:00 minute mark of the CBS video is not Allen Dulles. Even the most casual observer can compare stock photos of Dulles and the man in the video and easily discern marked differences between them. Your claim that this is Dulles is about as accurate as the old claim of some that one of the tramps photographed in Dealey Plaza is E. Howard Hunt.
I get it now. Photon is playing “See what you can hypothesize like CTers if you try” or something like it.
Nice game to play. Which I feel is all this is to you.
Also Photon, even if that were Dulles, how does he being there at that moment preclude the rest of the day and evening?
You are stalling, where are the Mudd papers on Dulles?
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To Tom S–
The bailiff reference is actually to a Cheech and Chong skit, as I recall. I Googled it and Cheech and Chong indeed came up immediately. Not that any of this is too important of course. I did see Proctor and Bergman (of Firesign Theater) live back in the day, and they were very funny.
Thanks, SaxD ….. I guess not recalling how to post a link was not the only fault in my memory today.
That’s what I was going to say…My attempt to use of that phrase on this forum was rejected…!
Willy,
The Dulles papers at the Mudd Library have been discussed here before. The posts from “Dan” describe what they show:
https://jfkfacts.org/assassination/comment-of-the-week-6/
Here’s a link to the appointment page indicating Dulles returned to D.C. at 3 p.m. on Friday after learning of JFK’s death:
https://webspace.princeton.edu/xythoswfs/webview/fileManager.action?stk=&entryName=%2Fusers%2Fmudd%2FdigitalObjects%2FMC019.09%2FML.2007.004%2Fonline%2FCorrespondence_Appointment_Call_Diaries_1945-1968&msgStatus
Yes Jean I have seen that memo.
So Dulles has from 3 PM to midnight with nothing else noted here. That leaves the whole night open for a “After Action Report” and meeting.
You might notice as well that the notes about what Dulles did after “finding out” about the assassination are hand written. He could have written that part at any time later, to cover where he actually went on the evening of 11/22.
Talbot obviously did not lie about anything in this situation. Dulles had plenty of time to get to the farm for that ‘After Action’ meeting.
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“Willy, The Dulles papers at the Mudd Library have been discussed here before. The posts from “Dan” describe what they show: https://jfkfacts.org/assassination/comment-of-the-week-6/” — Jean Davison
In other words Willy, Jean is providing you with proof from the Mudd Library, thru “DAN” whoever “DAN” is. (perhaps he’s in that boiler room after all?) in stead of linking to the specific document herself. Third person source material?
And then Jean provides you with a link to the appointment page, but after a few minutes in those links, one finds oneself buried in 1962 documents, at least on the first page of PDF documents. Perhaps Jean or “DAN” will have the courtesy of linking to the specific “MUDD” Library document in question. Or perhaps not. No one is asking to be spoon fed, but I would bet that new students of the assassination will be frustrated and walk way assuming, assuming either Jean or Dan know what they’re talking about because they have “LINKS”, or left in doubt either way.
This is after all, jfkFACTS.
“Here’s a link to the appointment page indicating Dulles returned to D.C. at 3 p.m. on Friday after learning of JFK’s death:” — Jean Davison
https://webspace.princeton.edu/xythoswfs/webview/fileManager.action?stk=&entryName=%2Fusers%2Fmudd%2FdigitalObjects%2FMC019.09%2FML.2007.004%2Fonline%2FCorrespondence_Appointment_Call_Diaries_1945-1968&msgStatus
That link doesn’t work, sorry. The file is actually on page two, and Neutron has posted the correct link:
https://webspace.princeton.edu/users/mudd/digitalObjects/MC019.09/ML.2007.004/online/Correspondence_Appointment_Call_Diaries_1945-1968/19631122_0000034513.pdf
Can Neutron or Jean now link to the diary page for November 21st reflecting Dulles’ appearance at the British Embassy that might reveal the purpose of that particular dinner and lead us to the list of primary attendees?
I am sorry gang, regardless of everything offered here, there is simply no alibi for Allen Dulles for the evening of November 22, 1963.
The so-called “proofs” that Talbot was “lying” are simply nonexistent.
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BK: I second your comment.
It is, indeed, odd to see a person (I assume Photon is a person) posturing as a truth teller while writing under an obviously false name.
My comment is that the Warren Commission Papers were one big lie. The big lie, as Hitler understood , was easy to sell to the general population.
Hmm, are you suggesting a link in the ways Hitler and the Nazi’s thought and the way the Dulles brothers thought?
Hitler told the German people the reason we are in such bad shape is the Jews. If we kill all the Jews all our problems will be solved. That was the big lie Hitler told.
Dulles and his friends in Military Intelligence were responsible for JFK’s murder. They spread the big lie that a lone nut killed JFK. That way everybody could go back to work and forget about who really killed JFK. Name the lone nut killer and move on.
I feel there is sarcasm embodied in your comment, but it is hard to be sure. It is pretty clear that the Dulles brothers had strong connections to Nazis through their work both in government and as lawyers before/during WWII and after it when many of the Nazi’s were brought into US intelligence. Just wanted to make it clear there was a factual connection. It’s not a well known fact, but damning facts tend to be swept under the rug by those in power.
Yes I was being sarcastic. Allen’s “sitting” on the information he received while in Switzerland that Jews were being gassed in the concentration camps amount to collusion to murder IMO. It also makes this “American Hero” to some a Nazi himself.
How about being anti-communist…?
In regard to the Dulles brothers however, it was as much a pro-corporate capitalistic style of anti-communism which isn’t exactly the same….
You hit the nail on the head – In a nutshell. Their Anti Communist posture for the US was a for profit business conglomerate.
To accuse someone of lying, one would have to know: 1) that a falsehood was told, 2) that the person telling the lie knew it was a lie, and 3) that the person telling the lie, told it with the intent to deceive. It would interesting to see what factual proof, in support of his statement, the accuser might be able to provide regarding #1, #2, & #3 above, e.g. were Mr. Talbot’s intentions divined through ESP or some other magical power?
I have to insist that Photon make a specific reference and source with a relevant and working link to his assertions concerning the Mudd collection of the Allen Dulles papers.
No more “Weird Necks”!
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I don’t think that word means what he thinks it means.
Well, one could say that about a lot of photon’s words, not just proof, but lied, evidence, damning, refuting and falsehood.
Beyond that, though, his comment is brilliant.
Link to Photon’s 4:46 am comment: