Tom Scully – January 11
Let’s see if I have this right, Ed Butler is in Hale Bogg’s office in the capitol playing the Oswald radio debate tape before AF-1 unloads JFK’s Dallas casket. See: https://jfkfacts.org/assassination/comment-of-the-week-10/#comment-847322
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/04/12/books/ultimate-insider-ultimate-outsider.html?pagewanted=all
Ultimate Insider, Ultimate Outsider
By Joseph Finder;
Published: April 12, 1992
……
McCloy, always keenly aware of being an outsider, was fond of relating an incident from his youth that came to attain an almost totemic resonance. As a college student, prompted by his mother, he walked up to the door of the Rockefeller mansion at Seal Harbor, Me., and asked for a job; the butler slammed the door in his face. Soon after, McCloy somehow managed to secure a position teaching sailing to the Rockefeller children, including Nelson and David, both of whom were later central to his career. ,,,,
Bill Macomber was former chief of staff of Yale bonesman John Sherman Cooper, and Cooper had been married to a DeMohrenschildt relative.
Macomber is Tom Devine’s best man in 1973. Macomber lived in a smallish house (link: http://preservation.mhl.org/123-main-st ) near Andover with DeM’s step-nephew and oil explo partner,
Hooker. see: http://jfk.education/images/AUV1940HookerMacomber.jpg
Devine and his best friend, Dryer, Jr. from Rochester, hold separate meetings with DeMohrenschildt and Charles on 25 April, 1963.
Devine is representing CIA and Joe Dryer, Jr. admits he had knowledge from a CIA contact that the secretary traveling with Charles in the U.S. was reporting to CIA.
Devine lived at the Sigma Chi frat house at M.I.T. from fall, 1944 with Garry Coit and 16 other frat mates. Coit was Priscilla Johnson’s CIA contact.
Lorraine Cooper, Wife of Senator, Dies – latimes
http://articles.latimes.com/1985-02-07/local/me-5298_1_dinner-party
Feb 7, 1985 – John Sherman Cooper of Kentucky and a prominent Washington hostess, has … She was first married to Robert McAdoo, son of William Gibbs …
Days before 22 November, 1963, Sen. McClellan is grilling Gilpatric (and his law partner, Maurice Moore, spouse of Luce’s sister and former Time-Life publisher) about his conflicts of interest related to the award of the TFX contract to General Dynamics. Link: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19631119&id=2LZWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GukDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2056,1090550&hl=en
Ros and his brother Chad were Rockefeller friends since childhood summers near Bar Harbor, ME
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/03/obituaries/chadbourne-gilpatric-foundation-aide-74.html
Chadbourne Gilpatric, (Rockefeller) Foundation Aide, 74
Published: February 3, 1989 ….
Earl Warren “suggests” Albert Jenner for appointment as senior assistant WC counsel, describing Jenner as a “corporate” lawyer.:
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_E._Jenner,_Jr.#Controversy
Gerald Ford secretly reported Jenner’s name to FBI’s Cartha DeLoach. See: http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/wdc/documents/ford/ford03.PDF
Earl Warren was a close friend of Jenner, Gilpatric, General Dynamics intertwined, Conrad Hilton, and there was speculation in 1957 about Virginia Warren marrying Hilton.
After Marina’s first WC testimony, she soon aligned herself with Declan Ford, brother of Gov. Warren appointed Judge, John Ford, and of Joseph Ford, former agent of
a small alien property recovery agency spearheaded by Joseph Carroll, Hoover’s former asst. and founding DIA chief, and FBI’s Leo Laughlin.
See: https://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=ssl&ei=MHmUVu-oLoOL-gXkzIyYDA#q=leo+laughlin+joseph+carroll
Isaac Don Levine, book agent of the memoirs of George Bouhe’s mother, see: https://books.google.com/books?id=46RZAAAAMAAJ&dq=don+levine+joseph+ford&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=bouhe
used Joseph Ford in an attempt to sign Marina to a book deal.:
See: https://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=ssl&ei=MHmUVu-oLoOL-gXkzIyYDA#q=don+levine+joseph+ford&tbm=bks
Haven’t even mentioned Allen Dulles.
What are the dates for this year for the JFK conference in Dallas at the Adolphous hotel. Do you have a list of speakers and events. Could not find anything on website for 2016. Thanks
For some of us neophyte’s.
http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKbutlerED.htm
Edward Scannell Butler was born in New Orleans in 1934. He went into the Army Management School from 1957-59 at Fort Belvoir, Virginia. After completing the course he was employed as an account executive with Brown, Friedman and Company, an advertising firm.
“Butler became friendly with Clay Shaw and Lloyd Cobb of the International Trade Mart and persuaded these men to help fund his anti-communist campaigns. This included the establishment of two organizations: Free Voice of Latin America (FVLA) and the American Institute for Freedom Project (AIFP). Butler employed former FBI agent Guy Banister to work for the AIFP.
In 1961 Alton Ochsner, with the financial help of Clint Murchison, established the Information Council of the Americas (INCA). Ed Butler was appointed as Executive Director of INCA. The main objective of the organization was to prevent communist revolutions in Latin America. Ochsner told the New Orleans States Item: “We must spread the warning of the creeping sickness of communism faster to Latin Americas, and to our own people, or Central and South America will be exposed to the same sickness as Cuba.” (16th April, 1963)”
–Spartacus Educational linked in Ronnie Wayne’s post above.
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Why do you think that, Earl Warren would assert that “it would unfair to present the findings after July 1964”?
That would be AFTER the Presidential elections.
Who’s advantage is Warren supporting for those elections? Is it not obvious that Warren wished to give that advantage to LBJ? Is this not “partisan politics” writ large?
Is this not evidence as well of the fact that the Warren Commission was in the main a “Political Document”, a calcimine?
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The elections were in November 1964. November comes after July.
This is an interesting document showing Gerald Ford to be a mole inside the Warren Commission, reporting to C.D. DeLoach via “our man, Inspector Malley”:
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/wdc/documents/ford/ford03.PDF
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“Chief Justice Warren told the commission that they should strive to have their hearings completed and the findings made public prior to July, 1964, when the Presidential campaigns will begin to get hot. He stated it would be unfair to present the findings after July, 1964.”
So, less than a month after the assassination, they had already decided how long their investigation was going to take? Does that make sense to anybody?
The OJ trial took longer. I guess Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman were more important than the President of the United States.
“So, less than a month after the assassination, they had already decided how long their investigation was going to take? Does that make sense to anybody?”~Jeremy Taylor
Only if the Warren Report was meant to be a political document, rather than an investigation, a calcimine rather than a revelation.
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Well, I have been anxiously awaiting the presence of Mr McAdams to make an accounting for himself here. But he seems to be flitting about on other threads acting as Commander in Chief of the Crypt-Tickled-Three, or ‘Propaganda Trio’, whichever moniker flips your switches for you…
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“Let’s see if I have this right, Ed Butler is in Hale Bogg’s office in the capitol playing the Oswald radio debate tape before AF-1 unloads JFK’s Dallas casket. See: https://jfkfacts.org/assassination/comment-of-the-week-10/#comment-847322”
Why should this be surprising, Tom? Butler was an anti-Communist propagandist, how would you expect him to react to news that the self-styled Marxist he’d debated was arrested for this crime? (According to your link, he was invited to Washington by Sen. Thomas Dodd.)
The news reports on 11/23 show the Right and the Left reacting as one might expect. Birchers blamed the communists, the communists blamed the Birchers, the liberals pointed to “the atmosphere of hate.”
Recently someone calculated that there are now, on average, fewer than five “degrees of separation” between Facebook friends around the world:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/8906693/Facebook-cuts-six-degrees-of-separation-to-four.htm
Jean,
Let’s assume Butler arrives early in D.C. for his invitation from Sen. Dodd. He happens
to have brought “Truth Tapes” with him to D.C., including the one of the Oswald Debate,
recorded three months before. He happens to have a late in the workday appointment to
meet with Rep. Hale Boggs in Boggs’ office on 22 November.
This sounds more reasonable than Butler readying himself to travel to D.C. for the Dodd
invitation that coming weekend, hearing the news associating the arrest of Oswald with
the assassination of JFK, rummaging through his Truth Tapes portfolio and rushing to
the airport with the tape, flying to a hastily arranged meeting with Boggs. Butler was also
not in Boggs’ eastern standard time zone. So, unless he flew to D.C. and arrived there in the
hours after the approx. 4:00 pm EST reports of Oswald, and met with Boggs about 10:00 pm
in Boggs’ Capitol Hill office to play the Truth Tape, (allowing maybe 90 min. from the time
Oswald’s name was reported until Butler’s airliner lifted off from NOLA’s airport) Butler had
to have carried the Truth Tape of the little nobody’s WDSU debate with him to D.C.
Jean,
I anticipate that if you were on trial for a crime punishable by prison time, you
would have preferred not to see Hale Boggs as judge or jury member in the trial courtroom.
How many are interestingly close to the situation under study and also interestingly close
to CIA, as asset/informant, or CIA officer?
USAAF (ret.) Maj. Jesse R. Core III came out of the NOLA Trade Mart, observed Oswald distributing FPCC leaflets, and dropped a dime on him to the FBI. Core seem extremely
interested in a rather nondescript nobody handing out the leaflets to passers by…..
Do you suppose Core’s life was so rich that his Foreign Service, so far from home, was
not remarkable enough to be mentioned in his obit?
Jean, where is that curious streak that prompted your research?
“Butler had to have carried the Truth Tape of the little nobody’s WDSU debate with him to D.C.”
I think you may have something there, Tom.
I always wondered but never really questioned how the hell Butler got to DC so fast with the WSDU tapes.
Tom,
I hadn’t noticed the time you said Butler arrived in Washington. Could you tell me how that was established? As I understand it, soon after Oswald’s name was announced, several stories about him surfaced pretty quickly because they were part of the public record: his defection and return, the debate in New Orleans. I think it was after this that Butler left for Washington, but I could be wrong.
”How many are interestingly close to the situation under study and also interestingly close to CIA, as asset/informant, or CIA officer?”
I have no idea. The HSCA pointed out, “…during 1959-1963…as many as 25,000 Americans annually provided information to the CIA’s Domestic Contacts Division on a non-clandestine basis. Such acts of cooperation should not be confused with an actual Agency relationship.”
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=800#relPageId=248&tab=page
The early ’60s were a different time when IMO cooperation with the CIA or FBI wouldn’t have been seen as a bad thing by most of the population of New Orleans or Dallas, who were mostly anti-communist conservatives. I don’t see Core’s telling the FBI about a pro-Castro demonstration as unusual at all.
I guess I need a SparkNotes version, Tom. I don’t quite get what your point is. Is it that all the people you’ve mentioned are somehow involved in… something or other, but what?
I don’t think “connections” necessarily mean anything unless there’s some evidence that they do.
Jean,
I am saying there are very troubling questions, the Foreign Service directory of 1952, listing service unmentioned in Jesse R. Core III’s obit, his ten years working as PR Director of the organization managed by Clay Shaw, and author Joan Mellen’s so far
partially supported details.
….and consider that Sen. Schweiker saw a problem, (See lower page at this link.: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1421&search=jesse_and+core#relPageId=65&tab=page ), the FBI had no consistent answer
to. Please re-read the FBI’s description of Core’s post assassination recap of how he came
to see Oswald and the details before and after.: (3 pages: http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62419&relPageId=54&search=delores_and%20neeley )
Jean, how can you or Dr. McAdams now have more confidence about Clay Shaw’s CIA status in 1963 than J. Walton Moore put in the record in 1976?:
http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16299&search=NO-98-76_and+Walton#relPageId=2&tab=page
I only know that if Butler brought the particular Truth Tape documenting Oswald’s WSDU debate
participation to D.C. in reaction to reports of Oswald’s alleged involvement in the assassination, he probably could not have left the ground from NOLA’s airport before 5:30 pm
EST. Butler has an intro of one of his related productions I referred to in the first comment; Hale Boggs placing the two of them in Boggs’ Capitol office, listening together to the Oswald Truth Tape, “just a few hours after President Kennedy’s death,” documented in my
comment at this link.: https://jfkfacts.org/assassination/comment-of-the-week-10/#comment-847322
All we can say with certainty is that Butler had traveled to D.C. with the tape or pressed vinyl record of that particular WSDU debate sometime shortly before the assassination of JFK,
or left NOLA with that tape bound for D.C., or was NOLA airport outbound literally within minutes after grabbing that recording, in reaction to receipt of news reports commencing about 4:00 pm EST of Oswald’s alleged involvement.
A Farewell to Justice: Jim Garrison, JFK’s Assassination, …
https://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=ssl&ei=bo6YVuzjE4OP-gXe55LoCg#q=joan+mellen+jesse+core+%22shoe+leather%22https://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=ssl&ei=bo6YVuzjE4OP-gXe55LoCg#q=joan+mellen+jesse+core+%22shoe+leather%22
Joan Mellen – 2013
…..
The International Trade Mart was run by CIA operatives, its public relations handled by David G. Baldwin, who later would acknowledge his own “CIA Connections.”
Baldwin’s successor, Jesse Core, was also with the CIA. It was a matter of saving the Agency “shoe leather,” Core would say. The Trade Mart donated money to CIA asset Ed Butler’s INCA. Every consulate within its bowels was bugged….
DISCLAIMER: The excerpt from Joan Mellen’s book first presented in the comment above contains some details I have not yet attempted to confirm, but I think it addressed the question Jean asked me. My own question, has the CIA obscured enough essential detail to
eliminate the possibility of determining what happened, related to Oswald, in New Orleans,
Mexico City, and Dallas? In the study of the events leading up to the WSDU radio debate,
can it be determined with a high degree of certainty, what was staged (planned in advance)
versus what was spontaneous? The reasonableness of this particular question speaks volumes,
IMO, I like to think an opinion of a reasonable, reasonably curious JFK assassination researcher.
Baldwin’s daughter.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanie_Cunningham
“I don’t quite get what your point is. Is it that all the people you’ve mentioned are somehow involved in… something or other, but what?”
~Jean Davison
Speaking plainly Jean, what they were/are involved in is Fascism. The red, white, & blue Amerikan brand of Fascism. Subtle and covert, and expressed in saccharine euphemism. As it is yet today.
What is fascism Jean? It is ‘Corporatism’, the state and big business merged. The ‘Military Industrial Complex’ would be one way of describing fascism.
Have you ever noticed the Ancient Roman fasces bass relief on the wall behind the podium in the US House of Representatives? Two of them on either side, large gold leafed sculptural reliefs.
They figure prominently in every State of the Union speech that is televised. But few recognize the symbols nor what they stand for, or where they are derived.
The reverse side of the Mercury-head dime also features a fasces and laurel branches.
Of course this covert symbolism couldn’t POSSIBLY mean what I am driving at could it Jean. I mean after all….
(grin)
I know there are “innocent” reasons for this symbology, rationalizations made. It has always been used as a symbol of governing power…for empires.
However the US is touted as a Republic. A thin vernier wearing thinner year by year.
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Jean, TomS can correct me if I’m misinterpreting the essence of these links, but I detect a significant discrepancy between a ‘spontaneous’ revelation of Oswald’s history and a highly orchestrated one that involves Ed Butler of INCA delivering information to DC.
Precision in any operation is impossible once the first shot is fired. It may well be that the timing of Butler’s arrival in DC is indicative of several curious anomalies, or ‘timing discrepancies’ we can identify in the early hours following the assassination.
You state “As I understand it, soon after Oswald’s name was announced, several stories about him surfaced pretty quickly because they were part of the public record: his defection and return, the debate in New Orleans.”.
Can you elaborate on those ‘several stories about him’ that surfaced “pretty quickly”? Will you allow they may have come directly from Ed Butler on his arrival in DC? I believe Jeff Morley has identified that among the first reports were those that surfaced in New Orleans; those would have relied on the history of the Ed Butler debate. But there is still the question of Hal Hendrix of Scripps Howard advising Seth Kantor who was on the ground in Dallas about Oswald’s history of pro-Castro activities virtually simultaneously with Butler’s DC trip? With the story of the century in his grasp, Hendrix opted to continue on with an assignment out of country and left Kantor with the lead? Does that not seem utterly bizarre to anyone else?
Does anyone have an audio of that first report out of New Orleans?
I’m saying Boggs, Ford, McCloy, Warren, and Cooper were no judges. They should all have recused themselves
from endorsing the conclusions in the WCR, it they could not extract themselves at the outset. This
is not meant to suggest Dulles or Russell were adequate.
Tom S, your reference to the Wikipedia article again brings up issues of you going off half-cocked claiming associations based on inaccurate information.
The Cunningham entry has at least two easily confirmed errors in regards to Baldwin which lead me to conclude that the whole narrative may be open to question.
But beside that, the history given for Baldwin regurgitates the points previously presented and makes no mention of any of the claims of Mellen, which seem at this point contrived and without any confirmatory evidence
Translation: I don’t actually have any evidence, but I can ask a lot of “troubling” questions.
But they are only “troubling” if you start with the assumption of conspiracy, and then feel that somewhere there must be the tell-tale connection that is sinister.
Thus virtually everybody ends up a suspect.
Tom, you keep posting bullshit from Joan Mellen. It doesn’t get any better with repetition.
Baldwin was drummed out of the CIA in 1952 for a serious security breach.
Taylor quotes Core as saying something that implies a CIA connection. You need to post a primary source on that.
Those men did not “run” the Trade Mart.
You need to post some source on Butler being a “CIA asset.”
And what do you mean “donated money?” Was he given free office space? So you are telling me some people in New Orleans supported an anti-Communist organization? That must mean they killed Kennedy!
As for all the consulates being bugged: I would like to think the FBI was that efficient. But do you really believe they would not have been bugged if they had been in another building?
Jeff doesn’t seem to understand that this undermines his notion that the CIA was involved in some plot to blame the assassination on Castro. They told the DRE to hold off.
And Jeff’s book on Win Scott shows that in Mexico City Scott and David Atlee Phillips were not keen to push any communist connection, while Ambassador Mann was.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/prouty2.txt
Von Pein has a lot of the early coverage on his site. You can see tons of interesting stuff there.
The business about Oswald and the FPCC was all over the place. It was not any kind of Hendrix exclusive being handed over to Kantor.
That document says what he was: a “contact” of Hunter Leake between 1948 and 1956. Other documents show more information. Indeed, several of the contact reports have been declassified.
This is what I find about Butler’s association with the CIA.
http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=66154&relPageId=2
He talked to the Domestic Contact Service. He was “very cooperative” (why shouldn’t he have been?), but had never discussed “operational matters.”
The early stories about Oswald’s past were about events that had been covered by wire services like UPI and AP, which kept archives that could be searched when someone came up again in the news.
Remember in “JFK” how the Fletcher Prouty character found it suspicious that a New Zealand newspaper had this information so quickly? But there was nothing mysterious about it, as explained by researcher David Perry and the NZ newspaper Prouty cited:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/prouty2.txt
http://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/the-christchurch-star-23-november-1963/
As for the anti-Castro Cubans and Butler jumping on the bandwagon to make political capital out of this, of course they did. What would you expect?
You are imposing your own interpretation on a symbol that was traditionally a symbol of strength in unity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces
“You are imposing your own interpretation on a symbol that was traditionally a symbol of strength in unity.”~John McAdams
I am imposing nothing, the fascese was the origin of the term “Fascist” imposed on Italy by Benito Mussolini. As a symbol it indicates central dictatorial power, as it did in ancient Rome.
Beyond this, there is no doubt whatsoever that fascism was embraced by the industrialist; Mussolini actually being inducted into the US Chamber of Commerce as an honorary member.
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From:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces
Got that? Republican Rome.
Jean D – “Remember in “JFK” how the Fletcher Prouty character found it suspicious that a New Zealand newspaper had this information so quickly? But there was nothing mysterious about it…”
The substance of Prouty’s critique is correct. The wire story, as printed in the NZ paper, was disseminated around noon NZ time (printed edition available on the street at about 1:30). That would be about 5 PM in Dallas. Preceding that, someone would have had to dig out the information in the wire service library and collate it into a new story. The printed story says that Oswald had already been interrogated for 2 hours, which means that the wire service decision to locate material on Oswald occurred shortly after 4PM Dallas time.
The caption accompanying the photo says: “Lee Oswald, aged 24, who has been arrested on suspicion of having shot President Kennedy.” In the body of the story it says the arresting officers “had received a tip that the President’s assassin might have gone into the cinema.” What this suggests is that someone associated with the Dallas Police Department was informing the press – with enough authority that the wire services would begin to collate Oswald material – that Oswald was the primary suspect for the presidential assassination shortly after 4 PM Dallas time. At this time there was exactly zero evidence available and Oswald was denying any responsibility. That is, there was no reason at all to release this information. Around this time, Air Force One and the Cabinet plane over the Pacific were informed that Oswald was the sole killer.
It didn’t matter that Oswald was denying any responsibility. The fellow who had turned up missing from the Depository had been arrested for shooting Tippit. Oswald was suspect numero uno.
That’s your opinion.
And it doesn’t trump the fact that the Dallas cops were talking to the press.
You should go to Von Pein’s site and watch “As It Happened,” which is the real time NBC coverage.
You can see just how quickly the story developed.
jeffc shares: ‘In the body of the story it says the arresting officers “had received a tip that the President’s assassin might have gone into the cinema.” ‘
jeffc, can you share a link to the article? This specific question has been debated on the site, whether or not the cadre of police raced to the Texas Theatre in pursuit of the assassin. It has been argued that they did not, that in fact they were responding to reports of a suspicious man in the vicinity of the Tippit shooting. Jean Davison has argued (paraphrasing) that no one knew Oswald had an Oak Cliff address, that the police were not searching for him specifically but were following leads offered them by Roy Truly at the TSBD – i.e. the Irving address. John McAdams now argues that Brewer was following the description provided by the radio bulletin related to the Tippit shooting, but Brewer doesn’t state that in his testimony unless I missed it.
So in essence, the New Zealand report indicates a discrepancy of timing, much the same as TomS has identified in the Ed Butler trip to DC carrying information about Lee Harvey Oswald.
Which doesn’t change the fact that to other people it historically has had other meanings.
“The fellow who had turned up missing from the Depository had been arrested for shooting Tippit.” — John McAdams
According to testimony of Johnny Brewer, at least one police officer was at the Texas Theatre to arrest the assassin of the president:
BREWER: “and I heard some of the police holier (sic), I don’t know who it was, ‘KILL THE PRESIDENT, WILL YOU.” And I saw fists flying and they were hitting him.”
And of course that happens today. But who tries to make political capital out of it depends on whether the shooter is an anti-abortion zealot or a jihadi Muslim.
Except that gun control advocates try to exploit it regardless of the political coloration of the shooter.
I’m aware the story developed rapidly, and that is because shortly after 4 PM someone at Dallas Police HQ told the press that Oswald was the primary suspect for the assassination, and whoever did that held the authority which could convince the Associated Press, for example, to search for and collate the Oswald information, create a story using this information, and then distribute that story internationally within the hour. (i.e. this was not a rumour overheard in a hallway).
It is understandable that police suspicions would be directed to Oswald, but there was absolutely no evidence available linking him to the crime. Oswald denied responsibility, provided an alibi, and provided a reason for his absence from the TSBD. The DPD may have had no reason to believe him, but the fact remains there was no basis by which to finger him as “suspect numero uno” let alone assure the press that this was the case.
The fact that you believe that is irrelevant. The cops considered him prime suspect, and told reporters.
Please! Go look at the real time coverage on Von Pein’s site to see how this developed in the media.
He says that in the Wolper video “Four Days in November.”
And here is his WC testimony:
Assuming Brewer is correct, that would not be surprising. Cops didn’t get killed that often in Dallas, and people assumed the two shootings were related.
And at one point, the dispatcher noted that the descriptions for the TSBD shooter and the Oak Cliff shooter were similar.
Let’s be clear on this John: On another thread related to the arrest in the Texas Theatre, you state:
“A man who fit the description of the Tippit shooter was seen acting strangely just a few blocks from where Tippit was shot.
And you find it strange that cops stormed the theatre?” — John McAdams
and now you waffle when I challenge:
“John McAdams now argues that Brewer was following the description provided by the radio bulletin related to the Tippit shooting, but Brewer doesn’t state that in his testimony unless I missed it.” — Leslie Sharp
with,
“He says that in the Wolper video “Four Days in November.”
And here is his WC testimony:
Mr. BELIN – Then what did you see this man do?
Mr. BREWER – He turned and walked out of the lobby and went up West Jefferson toward the theatre, and I walked out the front and watched him, and he went into the theatre.
Mr. BELIN – What theatre is that?
Mr. BREWER – Texas Theatre.
Mr. BELIN – Why did you happen to watch this particular man?
Mr. BREWER – He just looked funny to me. Well, in the first place, I had seen him some place before. I think he had been in my store before. And when you wait on somebody, you recognize them, and he just seemed funny. His hair was sort of messed up and looked like he had been running, and he looked scared, and he looked funny.
Where does Brewer indicate that “A man who fit the description of the Tippit shooter was seen acting strangely just a few blocks from where Tippit was shot.”” Where does Brewer state that he realized he had seen a man who fit the description of the Tippit shooter when in fact that description had not been broadcast?
Further, why are you avoiding: “BREWER: “and I heard some of the police holier (sic), I don’t know who it was, ‘KILL THE PRESIDENT, WILL YOU.” . . .
This is a clear indication that at least one police officer believed they were at the Texas Theatre to arrest the assassin of the president. Where did he get that information, and why is there no record of it, and why do some argue that Oswald was not a suspect of the assassination until well after he was charged with the murder of Tippit.
It’s all about timing. A magician knows that timing can be the enemy or the friend of a successful sleight of hand; keeping the audience guessing is the mark of a master.
John McAdams: “Please! Go look at the real time coverage on Von Pein’s site to see how this developed in the media.”
I’ve watched all of that coverage. Oswald is named as the prime suspect on NBC shortly before 4 PM Dallas time. An hour later, CBS, using wire service stories, reports the same information along with biographical details. For its scoop, NBC was using information passed to an on-scene reporter directly from the Dallas Police. An NBC report at about 3:20 featured information attributed to DPD officer Jim Leavelle as to “little doubt” of Oswald’s guilt in the Tippit murder, and also that Oswald worked at the TSBD – but “Dallas police have declined to say whether they think Oswald is connected with the assassination.” Half an hour later Oswald was the “prime suspect”.
The designation of Oswald as the “prime suspect” was generated by the Dallas police around 4 PM Dallas time. Within an hour, that information and portions of Oswald’s biography had been transmitted across the world (Fletcher Prouty picked up his New Zealand newspaper featuring these stories about 90 minutes after that). At the time Oswald was so designated – 4PM Dallas – there was no evidence against him and there wouldn’t be for another 24 hours. So why did the Dallas Police deliberately make this early assertion to the media?
jeffc,
After the shooting the police surrounded the TSBD fairly quickly (several witnesses had reported seeing a gunman or rifle there). I remember expecting to hear any minute that a suspect had been arrested. But nothing happened for over an hour.
Finally at 1:49 CST (according to an NBC timeline) it was announced that a Dallas policeman had been killed “2 miles away” from the Depository. Shooting a cop was very rare in those days, and on that day and time and at that location? A probable connection was immediately clear to me and, I suspect, to many others.
At 3:23 NBC reported Oswald’s name, that he worked at the TSBD, and said that “Eyewitnesses report that Oswald brandished a pistol…” at the theater. This was over two hours after Tippit was shot at c. 1:15 and about 1 1/2 hr. after Oswald’s arrest (unless my math is off).
Reporters didn’t have to wait to hear the police say he was the prime suspect. As soon as his name was announced they would’ve been scrambling to find out all they could about him. IMO, he was the obvious prime suspect because he was a TSBD employee arrested for shooting a policeman 2 miles away from the Depository.
Here’s a link to DVP’s extensive archive of 11/22 TV/radio:
http://jfk-assassination-as-it-happened.blogspot.com/
Jean,
Rarer in those days, compared to? Do you refer to shooting, or fatally shooting police officer?
Nationally, officers killed in the line of duty by gunshot peaked annually by the early 1930’s.
A source of Texas specifics is here.:
https://www.odmp.org/search?cause=Gunfire&state=texas&o=300
Research I can recall indicates, at least where I looked in larger metro departments,
in line of duty deaths most frequent were motorcycle mounted officers.
There is still no national government agency keeping (disclosing) statistics of officer
shootings of members of the public.
Dramatic decline in OSHA inspection, since 2000.:
Two things evident, police have great PR and supportive media. Turn off TV and radio news.
Jean D – “Reporters didn’t have to wait to hear the police say he was the prime suspect. As soon as his name was announced they would’ve been scrambling to find out all they could about him.”
That’s not how it played out. The NBC report at 3:23 specifically states that no connection had yet been made between the man in custody and the assassination. Half an hour later, NBC reports that Oswald is a “prime suspect”, attributing the Dallas Police as the source of that information. The biographical information about Oswald, from the Associated Press library, was collated and then disseminated by their wire service sometime after 4PM CST in response to the Dallas Police designating him as the “prime suspect”. That information started to be reported on air shortly before 5 PM CST. Previous to the Dallas Police designation, the only information broadcast other than Oswald’s name and age was that he had been in New Orleans and was connected with the FPCC (offered up by interested parties in that city), and NBC’s scoop that he worked in the TSBD which also came to them directly from the Dallas Police.
Reporters and news organizations in 1963 were professional, and would not be publishing biographical articles and identifying a man as the “prime suspect” in the slaying of the President of the US without good reason to do so. And the record shows, they had good reason – at about 4PM CST, someone with or associated with the Dallas Police stated with authority that Oswald was such. The record also shows, at that time (4PM CST), the Dallas Police had exactly zero evidence linking this suspect to the crime, and in fact had heard the suspect deny responsibility, provide an alibi for his whereabouts, and provide a reason for his absence from the TSBD.
jeffc,
Could you please give me a source or link for “The NBC report at 3:23 specifically states that no connection had yet been made between the man in custody and the assassination” and the other details in your second paragraph? I can’t find that online and I’d like to see it.
I assume no one here is arguing that the shooting of Tippit was just a coincidence unconnected to the assassination?
DVP no longer has the full collection of same-day reports online. Perhaps he can share them directly with you. What you are looking for was labelled NBC Part 15. (CBS Part 26 features Oswald bio from wire service). I also realized that ABC affiliate WFAA had an early report, at the same time as NBC (approx 3:15 CST) naming Oswald, that he worked in TSBD, and also that he had a Russian wife and had been in Russia (no stated link to assassination). The attributed source, interestingly, is Dallas Police Captain Gannaway (WFAA Part 14).
Jean D – “I assume no one here is arguing that the shooting of Tippit was just a coincidence unconnected to the assassination?”
In these early reports, there seemed to be a connection because of the incorrect information that a Secret Service agent had also been shot in the area.
“BREWER: “and I heard some of the police holier (sic), I don’t know who it was, ‘KILL THE PRESIDENT, WILL YOU.” And I saw fists flying and they were hitting him.””
Why were these policemen hitting Oswald? Brewer explained.
QUOTE:
Mr. BREWER – Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood up and I heard some hollering. I don’t know exactly what he said, and this man hit Patrolman McDonald.
[….]
Mr. BELIN – Did you say this man was the same man?
Mr. BREWER – The same man that had stood in my lobby that I followed to the show.
Mr. BELIN – Who hit who first?
Mr. BREWER – Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat.
Mr. BELIN – Who knocked who?
Mr. BREWER – He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the seats. And then real quick he was back up.
Mr. BELIN – When you say he was—-
Mr. BREWER – McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward that, and I saw this gun come up and–in Oswald’s hand, a gun up in the air.
Mr. BELIN – Did you see from where the gun came?
Mr. BREWER – No.
Mr. BELIN – You saw the gun up in the air?
Mr. BREWER – And somebody hollered “He’s got a gun.”
And there were a couple of officers fighting him and taking the gun away from him, and they took the gun from him, and he was fighting, still fighting, and I heard some of the police holler, I don’t know who it was, “Kill the President, will you.” And I saw fists flying and they were hitting him.
Mr. BELIN – Was he fighting back at that time?
Mr. BREWER – Yes; he was fighting back.
Mr. BELIN – Then what happened?
Mr. BREWER – Well, just in a short time they put the handcuffs on him and they took him out.
Mr. BELIN – Did you see police officers hit him after they got the handcuffs on him?
Mr. BREWER – No; I didn’t see them.
Mr. BELIN – Did you see any police officer hit Oswald after Oswald stopped fighting?
Mr. BREWER – No.
Mr. BELIN – Did you hear Oswald say anything?
Mr. BREWER – As they were taking him out, he stopped and turned around and hollered, “I am not resisting arrest,” about twice. “I am not resisting arrest.” And they took him on outside.
UNQUOTE
Well . . . they had good reason to believe that Oswald was the prime suspect.
But don’t overstate how “professional” they were:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/05/jfk-assassination-media-errors.html
NOTE: the link above seems to work only in Internet Explorer. But the video is a hoot!
Actually, Oswald was the prime suspect from the moment that Will Fritz, having returned to his office from the Depository told some of his men that they needed to go out to Irving and bring in a fellow named “Lee Oswald.”
He was then told (paraphrasing) “we can save you the trouble, Captain, there he sits.”
Of course it took a bit for this to filter out to the press.
‘Actually, Oswald was the prime suspect from the moment that Will Fritz, having returned to his office from the Depository told some of his men that they needed to go out to Irving and bring in a fellow named “Lee Oswald.” He was then told (paraphrasing) “we can save you the trouble, Captain, there he sits.” Of course it took a bit for this to filter out to the press.’ — John McAdams
Wait a moment John. I think you owe the discussion a bit more precise timeline. Are you saying that the dispatcher had two distinct descriptions, one from Truly at the TSBD and/or early witnesses around 411 Elm, and the other from witnesses of a suspect in the Tippit shooting? Please provide the dispatcher’s exact timing? And ‘Fritz returned to the station to say ‘we need to go after this guy in Irving’ and Oswald was sitting there …’ begs the question why Fritz had not already put out an APB to all law enforcement to be on the lookout IN IRVING before or around the time of the Tippit shooting and well before Oswald’s arrest at the theatre?
Also, you still have not addressed the words of the officer at the theatre. “Kill the Preaident, will you.” Was he following the dispatcher more closely than Fritz or any of his team so he knew that the Oswald of Irving matched the Oswald in Oak Cliff?
According to this document, before 7:30 PM EST, NBC News, New York, was in possession of WDSU recordings of
the Butler, Stuckey, Oswald radio debate, and possibly of Oswald, Steele, and possibly a third individual
handing out FPCC flyers adjacent to the ITM in August, 1963.:
Here is Fritz’s account of how, in his mind, Oswald became the prime suspect: solely based on Roy Truly telling him Oswald had apparently left the TSBD.
http://www.maryferrell.org/archive/docs/001/1140/images/img_1140_282_200.jpg
Note that nothing approaching a systematic attempt to identify who had been in the building had been undertaken at that point.
Also of note is that, in Washington, at about 3PM CST, J Edgar Hoover called RFK and told him “I thought we had the man who killed the President.”
http://www.jfklancer.com/backes/newman/documents/hoover/Hoover_RFK.JPG
Tom S.
“According to this document, before 7:30 PM EST, NBC News, New York, was in possession of WDSU recordings of
the Butler, Stuckey, Oswald radio debate, and possibly of Oswald, Steele, and possibly a third individual
handing out FPCC flyers adjacent to the ITM in August, 1963.:”
I’m surprised it took that long. You recently linked to letters exchanged between Weisberg and Johann Rush, who was the WDSU news cameraman at the Trade Mart demonstration. On page 8 of his letter Rush says, “I remember that I was in the WDSU news car with Jim Kemp when we first heard Oswald’s name over NBC radio. Jim called the newsroom and talked to Mary Grady, our ‘editorial researcher.’ I can’t remember if Mary said, “We already have it,” or, “We’re already looking for it.” Jim had asked her about our Oswald film. Anyway, the film was found within a few minutes….The video tape duplicate was made right away…”
http://www.rxproxy.com/index.php?rxproxyuri=aHR0cDovL2pmay5ob29kLmVkdS9Db2xsZWN0aW9uL1dlaXNiZXJnJTIwU3ViamVjdCUyMEluZGV4JTIwRmlsZXMvUiUyMERpc2svUnVzaCUyMEpvaG4vSXRlbSUyMDE2LnBkZg%3D%3D
So what? There were just so many male employees under Truly’s supervision, and he noticed Oswald was gone.
That was far from enough evidence to convict Oswald, or even make him a serious suspect, but it was plenty of evidence to justify finding and questioning him.
Excellent, Tom!
You have shown that, in the wake of the assassination, anti-Communists in New Orleans moved quickly to show how a communist had killed Kennedy.
That obviously could not happen unless there was a conspiracy.
Tom,
“Produce it if you have it, and prove me wrong.”
I’m not sure what you’re referring to exactly. There’s no list of theater witnesses, but three of them are on record as saying they saw a pistol in Oswald’s hand: Brewer was standing on the stage and had a good view. Also George Applin, and John Gibson:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/applin1.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/gibson.htm
Plus numerous lawmen who described the struggle to get the gun away from Oswald.
If you believe Jack Davis don’t you have to buy “two Oswalds,” one who arrived earlier than the other?
Jean,
Jack Davis is not on record until Marrs interviewed him in 1988, unless I’ve missed an earlier documented disclosure.
I’m using him as an example of the problem caused by the Dallas Police neglecting to make a list of theater patrons.
The theater had a small attendance and the police thought they had swiftly captured a cop killer, and they certainly
had just hit the nearby library with a vengeance. Why not announce, “nobody leaves until we get your contact info,” they
had Westbrook there, a records keeping captain of personnel.
My core point is the opinion that the DPD claim of Oswald attempting to shoot is not strongly supported, even aside
from the absence of a firing pin indent on the revolver shell casing examined by the FBI lab. Earlier I posted a link to
interviews of both Det. Bentley and his nephew, both present in the Texas Theater. The nephew hit Oswald with the butt of
the shotgun he was carrying. Neither mentioned Oswald’s attempt to fire the revolver.
Tom,
The choice seems to be, do you think Jack Davis’s 1988 story is untrue or do you believe in “two Oswalds,” one entering about 1 PM, the other about 40 minutes later. I pick “A.”
“My core point is the opinion that the DPD claim of Oswald attempting to shoot is not strongly supported,…”
The claim that he pulled out a pistol inis certainly supported by multiple witnesses.
“… even aside from the absence of a firing pin indent on the revolver shell casing examined by the FBI lab.”
Witnesses heard a click and thought it was a misfire. But this was a S&W, a very reliable weapon that wouldn’t fire unless the trigger was pulled back all the way. McDonald said he grabbed the rotating cylinder, which would prevent it from firing. Possibly when the trigger was finally released, the hammer fell back making a clicking sound but without ever touching the firing pin (2nd para here):
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946&search=mcDonald#relPageId=203&tab=page
Bentley’s written report says “I saw this suspect pull a pistol from his shirt…”
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/06/0636-001.gif
Are you saying that Nick McDonald was lying when he said Oswald pulled the pistol on him and tried to shoot him?
jeffc,
Here’s the earliest press report of a possible connection between the assassination and Tippit’s murder I’ve been able to find so far:
“2:35 AP Dallas, Tex., Nov. 22 (AP) — The Dallas Police Department today arrested a 24 year-old man, Lee H. Oswald, in connection with the slaying of a Dallas policeman shortly after President Kennedy was assassinated.
He was also being interrogated to see if he had any connection with the slaying of the President.
Oswald was pulled screaming and yelling from the Texas Theater in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas.
Police had to hold back crowds that quickly congregated because many apparently connected the arrested man with the slaying of the president…”
This appears several places online. I used two:
https://www.gilderlehrman.org/sites/default/files/inline-pdfs/T-05629.pdf
AND
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18769
IMO, it’s no surprise that Oswald quickly became the prime suspect given those circumstances.
This AP report was mentioned in the New Zealand newspaper Prouty talked about.
“Are you saying that Nick McDonald was lying when he said Oswald pulled the pistol on him and tried to shoot him?”~John McAdams (to me)
I certainly am “professor”. let me quote Mr McAdams here:
“Documents are often subject to different interpretations. I’m sure you believe that the documents show what you say they do, but somebody else might interpret them differently.”~John McAdams — July 1, 2014 at 6:35 pm
With that reminder I shall address two more “witnesses” tot the arrest of Oswald in the Texas Theater on 11/22/1963; George Jefferson Applin, Jr., and John Gibson:
. . .
Affidavit In Any Fact by George Jefferson Applin, Jr. as a witness to the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald. He states that he was watching a movie in the Texas Theater when an officer with a riot gun walked down the aisle. He witnessed the officer approach a seated man and shake him down. The man then took a swing at them and held up a pistol. Applin heard the pistol snap and then a large group of officers arrested the man.
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338846/
My observations;
Alpin “heard the pistol snap”…but both the officer and Oswald were holding the gun when the pistol “snapped”. Oswald was surrounded by several officers at this time.
There being no advocate in attendance at any of these interrogations, exact times and locations were not properly gleaned and examined by the questioners. This also holds true for the third witness now offered by Jean Davison:
. . .
The testimony of John Gibson was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A Ball, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/gibson.htm
Oswald was not in the isle with a gun in his hand as Gibson claims, the scuffle took place at the seat where Oswald was sitting:
http://www.concordmonitor.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=M6dLlstOZKDDRG$bxmcMAc$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYtGCgYoQsPf2eXQcfhM7_fBWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg
\\][//
Many obits are incomplete, Tom, for various reasons. I don’t know who wrote it.
What I still don’t understand is what connection you think Core had to Oswald or the Kennedy assassination. What does it matter that he reported the Trade Mart demonstration to the FBI? It was a public event filmed by a news crew.
Jean,
Are you reassuring me that everything is alright, nothing to see here?
Jesse R Core, III, by the CIA’s own documentation, was in the Foreign Service during at
least seven years, traveling to and living in the far reaches. No reason to include such
an experience in the man’s obit, better to keep the narrative of his life’s work in his
obit to the less spectacular, more mundane, you are certainly reasonable about that.
Then there is the matter of the CIA documents I posted links to, telling us, with just
the additional info of the obits of the CIA agent (Pearson) and former O.S.S. man (Rosenfield)
linked to Jesse Core’s wife in the CIA document, all along with Core and Baldwin, reasonably
being placed in India in 1952, a long way from home!
No, Jean….I detect “push back” coming from a predictable chorus of three, with Photon disqualifying
the legitimacy of an image of a purported 1954 NOLA city directory page screen captured from an Ancestry.com web page.
I get it, Jean. I should turn my curiousity scope inward and mull over why I am curious
and why the resulting information served up through my curious nature, should exist or be
shared. Jean, let me share this snippet, if you are not already aware of it? I did not give
much thought to who really killed JFK….it happened when I was about ten years old and I want
on to college, marriage, raising a family, that kind of stuff. Then one day, I read an article
in the Jerusalem Post online edition title, “Mr. Obama’s Neighborhood.” It discussed how he was
steered to a billionaire named Lester Crown, former chairman of General Dynamics. I knew Electric
Boat in Groton, CT from scandals reported in connection to its management. I had never heard of
Lester Crown or his family. My curiousity heightened, and Jean, I got from, “who is Lester Crown,”
to “here”! This is why I do not care if Oswald “did it” or did not, or whether they $21.45 money
order is “faked”. I think Gary Fannin’s new book is probably more error filled than fact filled.
I see much of the same religious like fervor from what you regard as “the other side,” as you do,
Jean.
Meet the guy who attempts to keep his opinions to the “reasonable person”, standard, Jean. I’ve never been sold a
bridge or a car that was a lemon. I could be sort of a benchmark you might hold up occasionally to
your own approach to information. The main thing I’ve learned is that there is seemingly no limit
to the sheer number of coincidences in any in depth research of one complex controversy, but that not
everything can be dismissed as sheer coincidence.
“Are you reassuring me that everything is alright, nothing to see here?”
Absolutely not. I’m trying to understand your argument.
I don’t know why Core’s foreign service wasn’t mentioned in his obit, but I can’t think of a reason why anyone would deliberately omit it.
“Then there is the matter of the CIA documents I posted links to, telling us, with just the additional info of the obits of the CIA agent (Pearson) and former O.S.S. man (Rosenfield)linked to Jesse Core’s wife in the CIA document, all along with Core and Baldwin, reasonably being placed in India in 1952, a long way from home!”
Which means what? This isn’t “push back,” Tom, it’s “please explain.”
“I get it, Jean. I should turn my curiousity scope inward and mull over why I am curious and why the resulting information served up through my curious nature, should exist or be shared.”
That’s not at all what I meant.
“Meet the guy who attempts to keep his opinions to the “reasonable person”, standard, Jean. I’ve never been sold a
bridge or a car that was a lemon. I could be sort of a benchmark you might hold up occasionally to your own approach to information.”
I’m not sure what you mean by that, either. But anyway…
How do you decide what is a coincidence and what isn’t?
” . . . six blind men were asked to determine what an elephant looked like by feeling different parts of the elephant’s body. The blind man who feels a leg says the elephant is like a pillar; the one who feels the tail says the elephant is like a rope; the one who feels the trunk says the elephant is like a tree branch; the one who feels the ear says the elephant is like a hand fan; the one who feels the belly says the elephant is like a wall; and the one who feels the tusk says the elephant is like a solid pipe.
A king explains to them: All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently is because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all the features you mentioned.”
I am commenting on Jeans post above on the Brewer testimony, as that line of commentary is nonnegotiable due to it’s length.
This is the point of essence:
“Mr. BELIN – Did you see from where the gun came?
Mr. BREWER – No.
Mr. BELIN – You saw the gun up in the air?
Mr. BREWER – And somebody hollered “He’s got a gun.”
From this testimony it cannot be proven that the police didn’t have the pistol to begin with, and were in fact attempting to plant it on Oswald.
\\][//
“From this testimony it cannot be proven that the police didn’t have the pistol to begin with, and were in fact attempting to plant it on Oswald.”
I love it. At least a half dozen witnesses, including private citizens, said that saw the gun *in Oswald’s hand*.
So how’d that happen, Willy? A cop shoves the murder weapon at him and says, “Here! Hold this!”? And Oswald does! And nobody ever mentions it…including Oswald!
Jean,
Produce it if you have it, and prove me wrong. The Dallas Police arrested Oswald in the Texas Theater and documented no list
of names of civilian witnesses actually in close proximity to Oswald’s apprehension, or for that matter, any list of names
of Texas Theater patrons present at the time in the building. Photon illustrates the problem, nicely. Did you know that Jack
Davis first talked to Jim Marrs in 1988, that he served in the USAF in Thailand, working at the base radio station, and
that he has been for many years a Texas radio personality nicknamed “Gospel Jack”. I see neither his oral interview in the
6th Floor Museum inventory on its website, or any mention of him disclosing any part of his Texas Theater experience during
all the years he broadcast live and recorded on radio.
“And Oswald does! And nobody ever mentions it…including Oswald!”~Jean Davison
How do you know what Oswald mentioned or not? There are no transcripts, no tape recordings of his answers during interrogation.
YOU are the one who posted Brewer’s testimony Jean, as if it proved Oswald had the pistol. I simply pointed out that Brewer did NOT see where the gun came from.
You want to introduce another civilian witness that clearly saw Oswald pull a gun in the theater? Do so, let’s vet that testimony.
\\][//
Look Jean, you and McAdams continue to banter on with your nonsense about this up higher in the thread; so I want you two to remember this point and stop pretending it was made:
YOU are the one who posted Brewer’s testimony Jean, as if it proved Oswald had the pistol. I simply pointed out that Brewer did NOT see where the gun came from.
No one can prove Oswald brought that pistol into the theater. To contend that the cops brought it with them to plant on Oswald is completely reasonable.
It is also utterly reasonable to assert that Oswald was already in the Texas Theater at the time of the Tippit shooting.
“According to Warren H. “Butch” Burroughs, the concession stand operator at the Texas Theater, Lee Harvey Oswald entered the theater sometime between 1:00 and 1:07 P.M., several minutes before Officer Tippit was slain seven blocks away.[428] If true, Butch Burroughs’s observation would eliminate Oswald as a candidate for Tippet’s murder. Perhaps for that reason, Burroughs was asked by a Warren Commission attorney the apparently straightforward question, “Did you see [Oswald] come in the theater?” and answered honestly, “No, sir; I didn’t.”[429] What someone reading this testimony would not know is that Butch Burroughs was unable to see anyone enter the theater from where he was standing at his concession stand, unless that person came into the area where he was working. As he explained to me in an interview, there was a partition between his concession stand and the front door. Someone could enter the theater, go directly up a flight of stairs to the balcony, and not be seen from the concession stand.[430] That, Burroughs said, is what Oswald apparently did. However, Burroughs still knew Oswald had come into the theater “between 1:00 and 1:07 P.M.” because he saw him inside the theater soon after that. As he told me, he sold popcorn to Oswald at 1:15 P.M.[431]—information that the Warren Commission did not solicit from him in his testimony. When Oswald bought his popcorn at 1:15 P.M., this was exactly the same time the Warren Report said Officer Tippit was being shot to death[432]—evidently by someone else.”~Jim Douglass – JFK and the Unspeakable
\\][//
You got suckered by Douglass!
By the late 1980s, Burroughs had completely changed his testimony from what it was before the WC.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/burroughs.htm
Before the WC, he said he didn’t see Oswald enter.
Then there is the fact that the testimony of Brewer and Postal establishes an entry much later.
The “just went in to the Texas Theater” broadcast on the Dallas police radio was at 1:46.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/capture65.ram
“Before the WC, he said he didn’t see Oswald enter.”~John McAdams
That’s correct professor, Douglass does not report that Burroughs saw Oswald enter the theater, he HEARD someone enter the theater.
Later he SAW Oswald at the concession stand when he sold Oswald popcorn at 1:15 – the time Tippit was murdered.
You might not find it strange that the Commission didn’t question Burroughs about the time at all. I find it highly irregular that they would not attempt to discern the time of these events as they are the essence. I see the failure to establish the timeline with Burroughs as another instance of the Commission knowing where not to tread.
The reasoning is obvious, if Burroughs was selling Oswald popcorn at the time of Tippits murder, SOMEONE ELSE had to have shot JD Tippit.
Now the question becomes, since you read my entire comment, why you seemed to miss the essence of it, and fall back on the incomplete Warren Commission testimony as a rather obvious straw-man tactic.
\\][//
But Brewer was seeing Oswald, and following him as he ducked into the Texas Theater well after 1:15.
Corporate Statism
“Corporate statism or state corporatism is a political culture and a form of corporatism whose adherents hold that the corporate group which is the basis of society is the state.”
–https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_statism
This is not some oblique and mysterious idea that I have conjured out of my own imagination Herr Doktor.
Are you really ignorant of these well known concepts and the nature of the political power derived by the merging of corporations with the state?
This is the context of why I refer to NGO’s, “Non-Governmental Organizations” as being central to the workings of the Corporatist State; an idea promoted by Mussolini in Italy and native to the US as well.
See: Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company, 118 US 394. Whereas a matter of obiter dicta was codified in declaring Corporations as having “individual rights of personhood” pursuant to the 14th Amendment. A hoax of logic and a trick of the courts to create an “immortal person” in the guise of a corporate entity. This establishment of Corporatism in the US was in 1886 – long before the advent of Italian fascism.
\\][//
John McAdams: “it was plenty of evidence to justify finding and questioning him.”
I agree. What I don’t understand is why, after Oswald was questioned – after he denied shooting the President, provided an alibi for his whereabouts, and supplied a reason for leaving the TSBD – the media was still told he was the “prime suspect”. They had nothing on him, and did not even have anything on him re: Tippit until after 6:30 CST when Oswald was ID’ed in a lineup.
FBI agent Hosty arrived at DPD HQ at 2:50 PM CST claiming, like Hoover in Washington, that Oswald “was capable of committing the assassination”, but what was motivating that assertion?
Why have you not mentioned Dulles?
(Ronnie Wayne, I was confident I could make this “real” without speculating about Dulles’s WCR “influence”.)
You’re a real “hoot” to attempt a discussion with, Dr. McAdams.
Two things now seem convincing. You present yourself to be not as smart or “in the loop” (savvy) as J. Walton Moore seemed to be. See: http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16299&search=NO-98-76_and+Walton#relPageId=2&tab=page
And your “nothing to see here, move along,” is not fair to Jfkfacts.org readers, to Wikipedia.org readers of pages “tweaked” by Wikipedia administrator, Gamaliel, or to visitors to your own website!
A 52 year “run” of these theatrics.:
Jesse Ray Cole III calls the FBI, so upset was he, “noticing” Oswald passing out pamphlets in NOLA! See: http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62419&relPageId=54&search=delores_and%20neeley
Quin Hillyer relates that it was “Butler’s brother” who was his father’s, HAYWOOD H. HILLYER III’s “good friend.”
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https://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=ssl&ei=g3uXVsSXEIuK-gXL6amICw#q=oschner+%22hillyer+III%22
Dr. Ochsner Renamed by Info Council
jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20Materials/…/1968/68…/68-09-12.pdf
Hayward Hillyer III, Dr. Joseph. Hopkins, Harvey Koch, J. P.. Labouisse, Dr, William Locke,. William Monaghan, Clayton L. Nairne, Dr. John Ochsner, Bish-.
Le Cercle membership list – Institute for the Study of …
http://www.isgp.nl/Le_Cercle_membership_list
1966 brochure, Information Council of the Americas (INCA), ‘What Lies Ahead? … Phillip M Hannan, Clyde Hendrix Jr., Hayward Hillyer III, Dr. Joseph Hopkins, …
http://freedomleadershipconference.org/thurmont-statement/
An Alumnus of Young Americans for Freedom, his father, Haywood Hillyer, III was at the founding conference of YAF where The Sharon Statement was adopted, 1960.
Haywood Hillyer III, lawyer and devoted Republican Party …
http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/haywood_hillyer_iii_lawyer_and.html
The Times‑Picayune
Apr 30, 2010 – Haywood Hillyer III, a lawyer and Republican Party national committeeman known for helping lead the fight against David Duke in the …
Dr. McAdams, how’s that curiousity deficit of yours… ?
You are now posting the same material on two different threads.
Go to the other one and answer my question.
McAdams gave you an ORDER Tom __ now OBEY!!!!
Or that’ll be 20 Hail Mary’s and night of KP.
grin
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