Anthony Martin – April 8
I’m not trained in physiology, but the neck doesn’t look abnormal. The shoulders and upper back seem muscular, maybe due to someone who had a a bad back and swam backstroke a lot.
It would be interesting to have an expert weigh in. In addition, a lot of world figures have disdained security in order to ‘project’ their strength. JFK wasn’t shot at in a cavalier moment riding around in a convertible. At a minimum, professional organizations who were supposed to protect the individual and who were aware of the potentiality of threats, in a critical analysis, exhibited a lot of discrepancies in the performance of a duty to protect and serve.
151 thoughts on “Comment of the week”
as an answer to Willy Whitten´s question about my buffalo neck I can say that this runs in the family. However; as I stated before, this deformation is well above the point that was said in the autopsy protocol as being the entry hole.
As a comment to Photon I would like to hear him comment on the fact that there are two different descriptions of the entrance wound in the back in the official report. There was only one point of entry, as far as I know. But you may have a different view?
The above link is to a Failure Associates diagram for the SBT. It shows either the bullet went virtually straight through Kennedy’s neck in order to nick has windpipe (hitting his spine on the way?), or it didn’t nick his windpipe. Which was it?
Schematic picture, not anatomically exact.The positioning of the two victims is correct, which is what the illustration was designed to do, not demonstrate the exact position of the wounds.
“Schematic picture, not anatomically exact…”~Photon
Which makes the illustration absolutely worthless, just like every one of your arguments concerning the Magic Bullet.
I bow to your superior knowledge of anatomy. Do your own responses strike you as evasive? Am I asking you for too much? I’ve always found those with great knowledge are able to convey this simply to the simple.
You are failing to bluster me in to accepting the SBT. Please keep trying, its vital.
Professor McAdams and Jean Davison are conspicuously absent when the ‘abnormal neck’ is discussed. Surely as two of the foremost defenders of the Warren Commission it is vital we hear their defence of the charge that; without imposing an ‘abnormal neck’ on JFK there is no route available for the Single Bullet through his neck.
It would be helpful if they both focussed on this central point, as opposed to taking less crucial elements of this thread to debunk.
Perhaps because they have no anatomic or medical background. Or perhaps because they do not accept some conspiracy hobbyist’s concept of anatomy based on two-dementional visual aides that you criticize. But most likely because NO real expert in anatomy, Medicine or Forensic Pathology has publically stated that the path of the bullet that hit JFK in the back had to hit any of the structures mentioned by Lumberjack Prudhomme before exiting the neck. It just simply isn’t true-even for a non-cushingoid neck.
If you think his claims must be true, please post an example from some one with the expertise to know.And please post a reason why after 50 years no forensic pathologist or anatomist has ever made the same argument. Have you or Mr. Prudhomme ever taken a course in Gross Anatomy? If not, where do you get your authority to make these anatomic claims that have no basis in fact? Prove me wrong with a reference from a real authority.
“NO real expert in anatomy” came up with the single bullet hypothesis, either, but you defend it like it’s the only think keeping you from drowning in cognitive dissonance.
I am still waiting on YOU to answer some really simple, basic questions about your beloved “honest, moral” man Allen Dulles and his bosses.
You have claimed on numerous occasions and numerous threads that Talbot’s book is “junk,” and you are appalled that people have slandered the “good name” of the honest Mr. Dulles, simply because we have “no proof” that he ever did anything “bad.”
As you are well aware, THAT IDEA is a load of CRAP. So, I will try again. Maybe this time, you can put away your hypocrisy and answer my questions:
1. Where does the US constitution allow for the invasion of a foreign government so the rich of the US can become richer?
2. How much time in prison did Dulles serve for Iran and South America?
3. How much time did a US president serve in prison for Iran and South America?
4. Where else, but in America, can a murderer (Dulles) sit on a “blue ribbon commission created by another murderer (Johnson) to “investigate” a murder? I suppose we should allow Al Capone to “investigate” Sam Giancana, correct? Lord knows JEH wanted nothing to do with organized crime.
You see, Photon, you can bash Talbot’s book all you want, and you can canonize Dulles if you wish, but you KNOW that Dulles and Johnson were dirty. You also KNOW that we will NEVER know the full truth of what the CIA did in Dallas or overseas. So, you can comfortably sit back and throw stones at Talbot, secure in the knowledge that the ACTUAL truth is lost forever.
You must be quite comforted by that fact.
#1 Where in the the Constitution was the authority to pursue the Mexican War, the Spanish-American War Red Cloud’s War -all of which in part or in total fit your description? You could make the same case for Lincoln’s actions in the Civil War, where the United States invaded what could have been interpreted as a sovereign nation-and would have been recognized as such by Britain and France if Lee had been victorious at Antietam .
#2 Perhaps I am mistaken, but in the United States people have to be arrested before being incarcerated and convicted of a crime before being sentenced to prison-except in time of war during the Terms of Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt. I do not believe that Dulles was ever arrested, indicted or convicted of a crime that carried a prison term.
#3.again, what President was ever indicted for actions against Iran or South America? Didn’t Woodrow Wilson authorize the invasion of Mexico? Didn’t Franklin Roosevelt agree to the occupation of Iran during WWII? If actions have a historic precedent how can you claim that they are unusual or illegal ?
You call Dulles a “murderer” How many lives did he save in the ETO by virtue of his espionage activities behind the lines in Bern? How many lives did he save by negotiating with Wolff to end the war in Italy without the latter’s forces crossing the Brenner Pass into an Alpine Redoubt and prolonging the war with “88” terror attacks? By your standards the greatest ” murderer” in American history was Lincoln-his actions caused the death of over 600,000 American servicemen and unknown thousands of civilians.Unfortunately special times often require special actions. The greatest violation of American civil and judicial rights in the history of the nation occurred during Lincoln’s administration. It was a price that had to be paid to save the nation.
Photon’s comment above is written like a true follower of Machiavelli, and his prescriptions for Realpolitik; the maxim of “Might is Right” with the attendant meme of “Ends justify the means.”
Of course Realpolitik fails, not merely ethically and morally, but in practical sense itself.
Means DEFINE the Ends; the results are of rational necessity due to the means employed.
Photon gives us the ‘EXCUSES’ maintained by cradle to grave indoctrination and conditioning that Government is Necessary.
The fact is that “government” is simply formalized predation.
Please ‘mark up’ the diagram I have linked to. I am ignorant of all things medical. Bob Prudhomme is making a logical argument, not relying on any personal expertise. His argument is very persuasive to me as a lay person. Your response that no one has made this argument before should make it very easy to debunk. Apart from your view he is making an argument that hasn’t been made before (untrue in fact) what are its flaws?
The main flaw is that you cannot equate 2 dimensional illustrations with the true 3 dimensional anatomy of the neck. As such Bob makes assumptions that are simply not true. I have posted an article highlighting scores of cervical bullet wounds that not only missed the structures Bob claims a bullet would hit, but we’re not even surgically explored-with no untoward effects on the patients. Nobody with any real knowledge of human anatomy beyond the cartoon level agrees with Bob’s claims. Feel free to post an example.
Why don’t you post a picture of say your normal neck to compare JFK’s to? Some kind of link, quote or support?
This is a distraction from relevant subjects.
Do you think Joannides knew Banister?
The above is hopefully a link to three diagrams of the cervical spine. Can anyone please mark and repost on the diagrams the single bullet theory entrance, exit and trajectory between those points. If the diagram fails to indicate an important abnormality in the spine then please mark that abnormality.
This discussion is flawed because without some three dimensional notion of the single bullet trajectory it is impossible to discuss its validity.
I fully expect this request to be ignored. From which I will draw my own conclusions.
As this thread is about JFK’s neck I thought I’d mention this to prevent any potential confusion. I’m just about done with Larry Hancock’s excellent book Nexus (while I’ve read much of the info in it I’ve never seen it put together the way he does). Lest anyone be confused by the title, no where in it is JFK’s neck mentioned thus far.
He does reference people like Jeff Morley, John Newman, Peter Dale Scott and Bill Simpich and it explores in depth issues more important to the assassination than JFK’s neck.
Ok, I’m wrong again. JFK’s neck is important regarding the assassination. Dr. Perry told us the afternoon of 11/22/63 three times of an entrance wound in the throat, which is part of the neck.
I know that Bill and I appear to be getting off topic with our discussion of the bullet fired by the M-16, and its engineered design features that allow it to break up in a wound in a fashion totally uncharacteristic of a normal FMJ bullet; even one travelling at velocities in excess of 3000 fps.
We must remember, though, that, in the absence of a serious forensic investigation into JFK’s murder by the US Gov’t, we pretty much have to rely on our own resources to come up the truth regarding what happened in JFK’s wounds.
As I have pointed out before, long, stable roundnosed bullets, such as te 6.5mm Carcano, tend to act like flying drills; making clean through and through wounds in their victims with narrow wound tracks and little damage. Italy was one of the few countries, in the early 20th Century, that did not try to overcome these limitations of the FMJ bullet by adding features to make the bullet break up or tumble in a wound, thereby inflicting much more grievous wounds. Eventually, in desperation, they did attempt, in 1938, to bring out an unbalanced bullet in the form of the 7.35x51mm Carcano; a slavish copy of the British .303 Mk. VII cartridge whose bullet was designed to tumble quickly in wounds. Unfortunately for the Italians (but not their opponents), this calibre was discarded after two years, and the Italians fought the rest of WW II with the much less lethal 6.5x52mm cartridge.
April 16, 2016 at 6:59 pm
April 16, 2016 at 6:12 am
“You are quite correct in stating the light weight and high velocity of the 5.56mm bullet fired by the M-16 rifle were factors in making this bullet do unusual things in wounds that were not observed by other full metal jacket bullets in similar wounds.”
A very good reference Bob. Thanks. I read part of it and saved it to read probably tonight. If the old boy worked on bullet wounds around Da Nang he had a lot of practice.
Thanks Bill. I was also quite impressed with this article; so much so, I believe I will begin a search to see if this colonel authored any other reports.
It is always fascinating to see how various countries worked to get around the limitations imposed by the 1899 Hague Peace Conference in the Full Metal Jacket bullet. Although the author did not seem to believe the steel jacketed, partially steel cored bullets with the air space in the nose of their jackets, fired by the Soviet AK-47 and AK-74, were nearly as effective as the 5.56mm’s separating cannelure, it is still interesting to study this bullet design and its effects.
Regarding suppression of the picture… When it was first posted here I was surprised that it appeared in “The” west coast newspaper in 1963. An almost naked JFK would have been considered risque by much of the nation at the time. Mini skirts and bikinis were still a few years away from public acceptance, on the East coast at least. It’s not surprising Salinger protested from this perspective. Heck, females didn’t wear pant’s, in public much less shorts, or as I saw today tights with apparently no underwear.
Where were you in 1963? I thought you said Fort Worth. This was fashion on a Long Island, NY beach in 1949.:
I expect the people in the area (Santa Monica) where the beach JFK was photographed on in 1962 were attuned to fashion. The woman facing JFK, in the two piece suit was 42 years old at that time according to her daughter (3rd comment).:
This article was published in the:
Swimsuit Story: Brief, Bare, Bikini and Bosoms
Date: Tuesday, November 11, 1958 Paper: Dallas Morning News (Dallas, Texas) Section: 3 Page: 1
This link may only resolve temporarily.: http://phw01.newsbank.com/cache/ean/fullsize/pl_004152016_2140_23750_868.pdf
Tom, my point was that such pictures were not published in most National newspapers at the time. Playboy was in it’s infancy, not widely known about. Porn was an unknown term. There was no internet. It was a different time, one in which we wouldn’t have been able to discuss this subject.
Ronnie, except for the absence of the internet, what you described related to 1962 America sounds like the
stuff of bible belt, flyover country. My first exposure to Playboy during my east coast upbringing was in 1961.
Here is a timeline.:
Reading the bio article of Larry Flynt and considering where and when his arrests happened, I’ll concede there
are two Americas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Flynt#Legal_battles I am sorry you happened to begin your
life in the other one.
I was seven years old in 1962, and I for sure would have remembered babes wearing THOSE excuses for tops. 🙂
What can I say Tom? Baptized as a Baptist in the late 60’s in Texas. Didn’t see a Playboy until at least 70. I was naive.
Many more, older than I were at least as much so. Some were sent off to a “war” against Communism and never came home or did so wounded physically or mentally.
It really was a different world.
Oops, just re-read and discovered those photos were taken in 1949.
(1) Photon: “I am convinced that Salinger tried to suppress the Santa Monica pictures precisely because any interested physician would recognize JFK’s cushingoid facies.”
Fact: In medicine, “facies is a distinctive facial appearance associated with a specific medical disorder.” For example, “Cushingoid facies” – also known as “moon faced”, refers to a face made puffy and round due to fat deposits associated with steroid use.
So how would suppressing a photo of JFK in a bathing suit prevent anyone from seeing his face? His face had been on display for decades.
Obviously, Photon does not know the definition of “facies!” In any case, no doctor — nor even a reasonably literate layman — would use the word in this manner.
(2) Photon: “As I said, a trained medical observer can see the cushingoid appearence that JFK developed in the late 1950s -an appearence [sic] that even the Parkland doctors were aware of without any medical history, leading them to give him a stress dose of steroids even before Burkley advised them to do so.”
Fact: Kennedy’s Addison’s Disease had been whispered about in the medical community since 1954.
(3) Photon has said Kennedy’s “buffalo hump” was mentioned in the autopsy. Really? Where is mention of the hump? I can find only a reference to his impressive muscular.
(4) As for Salinger’s concerns, here is a logical explanation for the WH reaction to JFK’s Pacific swim — which Photon does not tell you about. From Kenny O’Donnell’s book: “…the Secret Service and FBI there were beside themselves, but [Kennedy] made it seem like a natural thing to do.” “Beebe’s photograph, however, soon got White House attention, as such a casual image of a sitting president was then ‘iffy’ publication material… The Times also received a volume of mail about the photo… Comment ranged from amazement that a national leader could mix so easily with the populace in such an informal way, to rebuke from more officious observers who felt no national leader should put himself in such a position…”
By the way, the original source of the idea of using the hump to raise the back wound above the throat wound was John Lattimer. He presented that same photo from the L.A. Times in his book (Kennedy and Lincoln, p.203), and wrote:
“As can be seen here, Kennedy had more soft tissue across the back of his neck than most people. This may have been muscular, due to his swimming, or due, in part, to his taking of cortisone over many years for his adrenal insufficiency. It is easy to see that a bullet entering near the base of his neck at the back could pass downward at an angle of twenty degrees and exit just below his Adam’s apple.”
Miss Cranor, perhaps you could visit the WebMD chapter on ” Moon Facies” under the heading ‘Moon Facies and Cushing Syndrome’:
“It can be difficult to diagnose Cushing’s syndrome. That’s because signs and symptoms such as facial swelling can be caused by other conditions. But it is more likely to be Cushing’s syndrome if moon Facies gets worse gradually along with other characteristic symptoms.For example, fat may also gradually build up in the back of the neck, abdomen, or trunk, but legs and arms often stay thin.”
How can you evaluate the abnormal presence of fatty tissue in the back of the neck, abdomen, or trunk and the lack thereof in the legs or arms in a clothed individual?
This is hilarious! You’re trying to save face (facies!) by pretending you knew what the expression meant, when your use of it clearly indicated that you did not!
“I am convinced that Salinger tried to suppress the Santa Monica pictures precisely because any interested physician would recognize JFK’s cushingoid facies.”
I repeat my question:
How would suppressing a photo of JFK in a bathing suit prevent anyone from seeing his face? His face had been on display for decades?
Of course you can’t answer my other questions either.
#1 “facies is a distinctive facial appearence associated with a specific disorder”. Using the term ” cushingoid facies” implies a diagnosis that requires more than just the observation of the face. As the WebMD entry noted the diagnosis can be made if abnormal fat distribution is evident at other parts of the body-specifically those areas usually obscured by clothing. I know of no physician who would claim that somebody is ” cushingoid ” based solely on the appearence of the face. Can you give us an example?
#2. “Kennedy’s Addison’s Disease had been whispered about in the medical community since 1954.” Can you give us an example of a medical professional who was whispering about it? Can you give an example of any of the Parkland doctors who were whispering about it before JFK reached the ER?
#3. I never said that JFK’s ” buffalo hump” was mentioned at the autopsy. What is curious is that despite JFK’s Addison’s Disease being ” whispered about” in the medical community no mention whatsoever related to that disorder is mentioned in the autopsy report, despite the fact that no identifiable adrenal tissue was noted at the autopsy-as related by Karnei and Boswell in 1992. Are you saying that an order (ie.request from the Kennedy family ) not to discuss the issue of the adrenals for 15 years was not made? I have never heard of an autopsy report of a case of missing adrenal glands being noted not having that diagnosis clearly stated in the report. Perhaps you can give an example.
#4.” A casual image of a sitting president was then ‘iffy’ publication material”. I don’t see any record of White House objections to famous pictures of John Jr. crawling through JFK’s desk in the Oval Office or other similar “casual” images .Perhaps you can give us an example.
As to Lattimer, he was a noted academic surgeon who as a Urologist saw hundreds, if not thousands of adrenal glands during surgery. He had no idea that no adrenal tissue( according to Karnei and Boswell in 1992) was found at autopsy, but his training and experience allowed him to notice JFK’s cushingoid appearence. Now why would a Urologist have any experience in evaluating cushingoid patients? There is a large cohort of patients who get large doses of steroids and often get their care at tertiary centers , such as the one that Lattimer was an attending at. These patients often manifest the cushingoid side effects of years of steroid therapy-similar to that seen in JFK. They often have urological issues that require intervention by physicians who practice Lattimer’s specialty. Kidney transplants.
Whatever took place at Bethesda was not an autopsy – it was a fishing expedition to gather only enough information to explain the wounds coming from a single shooter.
“This is hilarious. Of course you can’t answer my other questions either.”
After five days, it appears that you have no answers to my responses, which leads me to believe that you have none. Principally, where is the evidence for doctors “whispering” about JFK’s Addison’s Disease when you claim that he had none of the signs consistent with its treatment?
I’m still patiently awaiting your explanation of how this fatty deposit between JFK’s shoulders can be related to a supposed “abnormal” neck condition, and how this can be tied in to making the Silly Bullet Theory remotely possible.
Take your time. We have all summer.
I will when you post the published opinion of any recognized academic authority in anatomy that your claims of what the round had to hit have any basis in fact.
What “academic authority in anatomy” came up with the single bullet hypothesis?
It doesn’t take “academic authority” or any “authority” to understand the geometry and physics required to allow for the WC’s BS explanation of the shooting.
It seems the sum total of “Dr.” Photon’s hypothesis regarding JFK and the symptoms of Cushing’s Syndrome revolve around the deposition of a fat lump between JFK’s shoulders that gave the illusion JFK was a hunchback with a great forward curvature of the spine just below the cervical vertebrae.
Cushing’s Syndrome does not cause a curvature of the spine, and no such curvature was reported in the autopsy report, or observed by autopsy doctors in the x-rays. Therefore, it is not technically correct for “Dr.” Photon to say JFK had an abnormal neck condition, as the only abnormality in this vicinity was the deposition of a fat lump between the shoulders, creating the illusion that his spine was hunched forward.
Much ado about nothing but, we have come to expect this much of the good “doctor”.
photons are used in radio therapy technology to zap cancerous tumours; IAPB’s (a circulatory assist device to support the left ventrical) are used in institutions such as hospital Intensive Care Units; the anonymous photon thrives on elevating his or her ego, and contaminating public discourse of JFK’s assassination – if indeed a real practitioner of health, would you trust this person to manage your life threatening condition?
If instructed by the CIA to out a patient for interests of national security, do you think this kind of character would flinch if he or she could get away with it?
Whether or not JFK had developed a hunchback that would affect the positioning of his cervical vertebrae is immaterial to the SBT.
The fact remains that the “Sniper’s Nest”, supposedly occupied by Oswald, was a mere 9° removed laterally (sideways) from a centre line drawn through the length of the limo at z224 of the Zapruder film.
The official analysis of JFK’s wounds tells us the bullet grazed the top of the right transverse process of JFK’s T1 thoracic vertebra but cleared the right tip of the right transverse process of his C7 cervical vertebra, passed through the muscles of the right side of his neck, passed through the right side of his trachea (windpipe) and exited the centre of his throat. In order to pass through JFK’s neck in this manner, the bullet would have to follow a trajectory through JFK’s neck of roughly 28°, requiring the origin of the shot to be a great deal west of the Sniper’s Nest in the TSBD.
Even if JFK’s head was turned 5° to the right at the supposed moment of the SBT, his shoulders remained perpendicuar to the limo centre line, and this would only reduce the angle to 23°.
Not only could the shot not have originated in the SE corner of the TSBD, the extreme angle of passage trough JFK’s would have had the bullet ending up somewhere on the driver’s side of the limo, not in John Connally’s right armpit.
Bob, if your analysis is valid, why didn’t four Federal investigations agree? It would have been a simple matter to challenge their findings,IF there was merit in your conclusions. However, in 50 years you seem to be the only person to discover that the angles don’t match up. Of course, you don’t seem to understand that there were at least 4 independently moving objects at the time of the “single bullet”-the limo,JFK, Connolly and the bullet itself. All were in motion to some degree, making your static angle claims untenable. We don’t even know the exact position JFK was in when he was hit in the back, although obviously the shot came from behind. The inherent uncertainty of the exact source of the shots that hit JFK based on the forensic analysis of the wounds leads computer analysis to generate not exact spots, but probability “cones” for where the shots came from-as generated by the much despised Faliure Associates computer animation. The cones intersect at the sixth floor window of the TSBD where the sniper’s nest was located. Now the Failure Analysis company had years of experience re-creating accident scenes using the same computer technology and had those re-creations stand up in court. What experience do you have? What computer do you use to accurately interpret multiple variables in a moving situation to generate precise angles and trajectories that more powerful computers than you have available do not agree with? Since you and others have been so obviously unaware of JFK’s cushingoid back and neck how could you have taken into account how that would have affected the angle of penetration-in much the same way that JFK’s bunched up jacket affected the placement of the holes in the clothing?
You couldn’t. And you haven’t. And because you were unaware of that issue your conclusions cannot be valid.
To point out something spectacularly obvious; Photon is either utterly clueless as to human anatomy, and completely disingenuous as to his claimed ‘expertise’ in medical issues – OR he/she is purposely misrepresenting the position of the bullet wound in Kennedy’s back.
The proposition that JFK’s coat and shirt were “bunched up” is belied by the actual photograph of JFK’s back from the autopsy. ANYONE with eyes can see that that wound is in JFK’s back at the vicinity of T-3, and NOT in his neck.
Claiming that the coat and shirt were “bunched up” is also an assertion of ‘Coincidence’ so blatantly absurd, in that the visual evidence of the wound is unquestionable, the alignment with the garments is unquestionable. The fact that Boswell’s facesheet places a dot at that exact place is unquestionable. The fact that Burkely’s JFK death certificate placing the wound at T-3 is unquestionable. Sibert and O’Neill’s report that the wound was at T-3 is unquestionable.
The ONLY thing that is questionable is Photon’s medical expertise, or his/her sincerity.
First off, “Dr.” Photon, I trust you, Dale Myers, Failure Associates and four Federal investigations about as far as I can throw the lot of you, and while that may be a bit of a toss, the actual distance will not amount to much.
Tell me, in as few words as possible, how the deposition of fatty tissue at the juncture of neck and back, as a symptom of Cushing’s Syndrome, can affect the alignment and spacing of the cervical vertebrae. Before you begin, allow me to inform you that, outside of osteoporosis, there is nothing about Cushing’s syndrome that would shrink, misalign or deviate any of the vertebrae.
As far as I know, the TSBD and the section of Elm St. directly in front of it have not moved significantly in the last fifty-three years; giving us at least two static measurements in the equation of the SBT. By analyzing the Zapruder film, the only possible moment for the SBT to have occurred is directly relative to frame z224 of the Z film. Viewing this frame, it is not a difficult matter to determine the precise location and alignment to Elm St. at frame z224. The SS and FBI did this after the assassination, and were the ones to determine the Sniper’s Nest was 9° laterally (sideways) removed from a centre line drawn through the length of the limo at z224. Further analysis of z224 showed that JFK was sitting with his shoulders parallel to the seat he was occupying, thus making a centre line drawn through his sternum and spine also 9° laterally removed from the Sniper’s Nest.
At the very most, JFK’s head was turned up to 5° to the right but, as the parts of his lower neck allegedly wounded by the SBT would NOT be affected by turning merely the head to the right, this is, really, of little consequence.
The only way to make your SBT work would be to have it enter the upper back, pass by the cervical vertebrae and, suddenly, make a dramatic deviation to JFK’s left. I do not think this is something you would want to back, though, as such a deviation would put the exiting bullet nowhere near Connally’s right armpit, and the bullet would likely have struck Nellie Connally instead.
Also, bullets take a parabolic path out of the muzzle. This bullet would have a downward trajectory in any wound at that distance. Nothing about Photon’s pho-toids explain the visual evidence as being in alignment with the SBT.
April 16, 2016 at 11:16 am
“Also, bullets take a parabolic path out of the muzzle. This bullet would have a downward trajectory in any wound at that distance.”
The distance was less than 100 yards. Right? At that range, with a rifle zeroed for 200 yards, you wouldn’t see this parabolic path. It might be going on but I don’t believe you would observe it. At that range I don’t believe you’d see this “downward trajectory”. At a range of 350 or 400 yards I believe it would have this downward trajectory.
If we consider this experiment as taking place on a flat landscape, you will find that if there are two identical bullets, and one is fired from a gun, and at the same instant the other bullet is dropped from the same height as the barrel of the rifle, both bullets will hit the ground at the same moment.
I agree, Bill; the Toon Bullet (http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Toon_Bullets) certainly wouldn’t drop off the table before or during the entrance wounding due to any trajectory. But from an elevated shooting position, the trajectory to the target from the TSBD was on a downslope. Even Elm’s slight downslope would not have allowed for the Sloppy Ballistics Theory.
Quick question: If LHO was the sole assassin and he was a “lone nut” and a “deranged loner” who had “crossed the Rubicon” (your words), then why the HELL was there a need for FOUR, repeat, FOUR federal investigations? I thought you had always preached the the WC had settled the dust and was a thorough and wonderful report?
I am a tad confused as the need for FOUR? I thought the third time was a charm?
Part 1 of 7: Overview
Cushing syndrome is when your body has abnormally high levels of a hormone called cortisol. This can happen for a variety of reasons, the most common of which is overuse of corticosteroid medications.
Symptoms include a round-shaped face, upper body weight gain, and skin that bruises easily. Women may also notice increased body hair and menstrual irregularities. Men may develop erectile and fertility problems. Children who have this condition are often obese and have a slowed rate of growth.
“Erectile and fertility problems”?? JFK?
Bob, JFK was taking testosterone daily during his Presidency. Obviously it was effective, his cholesterol was 410.
Do you have any idea what testosterone does?
I guess this was part of Dr. Feelgood’s injections since that’s where your headed?
That had nothing to do with Jacobson.It was part of the treatment regimen for his adrenal insufficiency .
And I’m assuming you have proof to back up this claim, Photon?
“Do you have any idea what testosterone does?”~Photon
“Cry baby cry… make your mother sigh
She’s old enough to know better..”
“Do you have any idea what testosterone does?”
Yeah, it gives you an abnormal neck and makes you suspectible to magic bullets.
April 15, 2016 at 12:23 pm
“Do you have any idea what testosterone does?”
“Yeah, it gives you an abnormal neck and makes you suspectible to magic bullets.”
Any one with hunting experience knows that the neck of the male whitetail deer “swells” or becomes larger when he is in rut with a large amount of testosterone. I think it made my neck larger 50 years ago. JFK was always in rut so perhaps there is something to this.
LOL Bill. It may have given us and the bucks swollen necks years ago but, when we butchered the deer, it was observed the swollen necks had little effect on the vertebrae beneath them.
April 15, 2016 at 4:55 pm
“LOL Bill. It may have given us and the bucks swollen necks years ago but, when we butchered the deer, it was observed the swollen necks had little effect on the vertebrae beneath them.”
Point taken Bob. I never felt any effect to my vertebrae either.
I wonder why your last two comments mesh so seamlessly with this?
April 15, 2016 at 5:22 pm
“I wonder why your last two comments mesh so seamlessly with this?”
I’m not sure what you mean here, Tom. So to be on the safe side I’ll pass comment.
Once again, like Cushing’s Syndrome, unless testosterone has been proven to shrink, misalign or deviate cervical vertebrae, does it really make any difference in a discussion about the SBT?
No difference whatsoever. The distraction artists have been thriving with these kinds of inane ideas.
The x-rays did not show a misalignment of the cervical or thoracic vertebrae. Even a claimed “Forward head posture” condition would not allow for Photon’s brainfart exercise in futility to explain the SBT. If one has eyesight and watches the Zfilm frame to frame, the SBT doesn’t even explain all the wounds claimed to have been caused by CE399.
Dr. Robert F Karnei, chief resident in Pathology at Bethesda hospital in 1963 would have ordinarily done the autopsy but the Command felt that the status of the decedent warrented more senior pathologists.
However, he was in attendance at the autopsy and while not the prosector he closely observed the body and the procedure while attending to aspects of the autopsy such as obtaining necessary supplies, organizing other medical assistance and aiding in accommodating the spectators. One of the initial perceptions he had was that JFK was noticeably Cushingoid and had the stereotypical effects of that syndrome. This was noticed by other medical professionals but not mentioned to any great effect at the autopsy. The reason for this became apparent when no identifiable adrenal tissue was noted at autopsy. To stay alive JFK had to be maintained on exogenous corticosteroids, which at that time were given in much larger doses than currently and almost always resulted in excessive tissue deposition in various areas of the body. This caused JFK’s physical appearance to change over time, such that the aesthetic and lean individual noted in the 1940s and 1950s became the more robust JFK noted from about 1959 and on.In addition, JFK began to develop a suttle change in his posture such that his cervical lordosis was affected by abnormal tissue distribution.
The greatest medical secret of the Kennedy administration became evident-and prompted the only real cover-up of the autopsy that I am aware of, directed at the wish of the Kennedy family-total silence about JFK’s adrenal insufficiency. The secret was finally revealed in 1992 by Karnei and Boswell, long after the initial 15 year request by the family for silence expired. However, Karnei earlier had revealed to Harrison Livingstone the appearance of multiple effects of steroid therapy on JFK’s corpse, including the cervical changes that I have referred to for months .Those changes are visible on photos of JFK to educated observers, particularly those rare pictures of his bare neck. The abnormal cervical lordosis can be seen in several photos of the Dalles motorcade.
The autopsy picture of the back wound also clearly portrays an abnormal tissue distribution at the base of the neck, even apparent hours after death. It must be remembered that the corpse had been rolled on its side for the photo and while rigor had set in the upper back and neck appearence is not typical,as it appears more swollen and edematous than is usually seen and excess tissue would have redistributed toward the inferior shoulder, ie. toward the left shoulder. The reason for this is that JFK had the classic “buffalo hump” of steroid excess-again evident on prior photos to trained observers.
Pat Speer and others have never understood that JFK’s cervical posture and tissue distribution were affected by his steroid therapy and produced anatomic changes that rendered his anatomy different from that seen in a normal, non-cushingoid neck and back. When he criticized the Lattimer drawing of the back wound, he claimed that JFK was portrayed as a “hunchback” without realizing that physiologically to a certain extent he was exactly that (although to a lesser degree than he claims) as he had a typical ” buffalo hump” as noted at autopsy.
Well, I have no more time to post as I must return to managing an IABP at this early hour.
Wow, Photon’s ‘research team’ have been working hard, took a very long time though. You Americans can’t be paying enough tax.
So now we know Photon is a cardiologist named Paul who lives in or near Fredericksburg, Virginia.
A search of the staff directory at Mary Washington Hospital should yield his true identity.
Courtesy of David Hazan.
I encourage all who visit the page, Hunchback Kennedy, to read the commentary by Olle Reimers, which appears as the very first comment on that page.
I think it is an important and illuminating commentary on the position of the back wound suffered by JFK, and the disingenuous and fraudulent manner the issue was dealt with in the Warren Report.
I myself has a little of that “buffalo hump” but it is situated above the point that is 14 cm below the mastoid process. I suggest that would be the case for most of us who have this little defect.
However; Humes has already admitted that Boswell´s depiction of the entry at the third thoracic vertebrae is correct.
“I myself has a little of that “buffalo hump” ~olle reimers
As you have told us, you are quite a bit older than Kennedy at the time of his death. Did you develop your buffalo hump in your early forties?
As anyone who has seen photos of JFK clothed and with his shirt off; if he had such a “hump” it was negligible, because it was hardly noticeable.
Ollie, I too have a slight physical deformity which is generally not noticed.
But of course I am aware of it.
That this has become a subject of dispute regarding JFK,s assassination is almost laughable but for the importance of his murder to us as a Nation.
Buffalo Hump was a Comanche in Larry McMurtry’s Lonesome Dove series.
He or “it” had nothing to do with JFK”s slaughter. Photons is full of it as a Christmas Turkey.
“Buffalo Hump was a Comanche in Larry McMurtry’s Lonesome Dove series.”~Ronnie Wayne
“Buffalo back fat” was a delicacy in plains Native American culture. It was apparently quite sweet. It was also used as an endearment amoungst the Plains Indians.
Still not a single source posted for Photon’s claim that JFK had a “cushingoid neck and back”. He has finally given a ‘name’ to what he is talking about, but no sources again.
I contacted several “trained observers” (MD’s) that made no such observation. One of these was an online medical answer service so I could have the type of source that Photon inevitably fails to provide:
Ask a Doctor Online Now – justanswer.com
I simply asked if there was any apparent abnormality to Kennedy’s neck. The answer was “no” in 4 out of 4 responses.
The question that occurred to me again this morning is:
‘Is Photon an anonymous individual, or an anonymous group?’
After months and months of Photon’s coy jitterbug of innuendo and vague rhetorical taunting, SUDDENLY he utters the ‘magic words’, “Cushingoid neck & back”. He offers no links to back up any of these claims.
We are offered too little too late.
Photon’s latest is unconvincing and anticlimactic to say the least.
The names of the guys in his department.
“The autopsy picture of the back wound also clearly portrays an abnormal tissue distribution at the base of the neck..” ~Photon
What the autopsy picture of the back wound clearly portrays is that it is NOT in the neck, but further down at T-3 on the back.
What we do see of the neck is the deep wrinkles of “leatherneck” that Navy and Marines are well known for. It is simply the result of years of the back of the neck being exposed to the sun.
I do not see the slightest indication of “buffalo hump” that “Dr” Photon refers to. Not in the autopsy photo, nor any other photos of JFK.
I give Photon an ‘F+’ for Futile, and the plus for effort.
Willy, I was unaware of the fact that Naval servicemen have ever been referred to as ” leathernecks”. Marines are, but because the original Continental Marine uniform had a leather strap along the collar-presumably to give some protection from the naval cutlasses that were a primary weapon of the times.The term has nothing to do with the appearance of the skin on the posterior neck. At any rate, the same presumed sun damage should have been much more prominent on those areas of the 46 year old Kennedy that were actually exposed to the sun and the elements. Aside from his service in the Solomons in 1943 there are few if any pictures of JFK on boats not wearing a shirt.
Perhaps you can describe what the normal appearance of the back and neck should look like at autopsy.I am sure that you have seen an autopsy and can describe the post-mortem changes noted 8-12 hours after death.
President Kennedy was 45 years old when photographed on the beach. I suppose you’ll be pleased to present some
support, a link to a page or to a document image perhaps, supporting your attendance or participation at or in an
autopsy, or in support of anything in any of your comments. To your credit, you did include supporting links in one
recent comment. You don’t have to read all of the replies addressed to you and your comments, but I do. Consider giving both of us a break, include supporting links or other generally verifiable details. Unpublished manuscripts held privately by third parties are mentionable but as useful to the rest of us as assertions of viewing “the other film.” This advice, of course, assumes you are sincere.
You seem to have a double standard here in regards to support of statements. Miss Cranor posted two replies without any documentation or links, including an insult comparing me to a lower form of marine life.
What link has Mr. Stirlen mentioned that supports his allegations?
How about Mr Prudhomme’s claims about the impossibility of a Carcano bullet having the ability to travel through JFK’s neck without hitting the spinal column? All that he has referred to to support this theory comes from his interpretation of pictures that don’t even come from standard anatomy texts. We have yet to see any real expert support his claims.
A double standard? You’ve submitted 2,600 comments. How many have included supporting links?
This is not my website. I read the comment submission guidelines
https://jfkfacts.org/comment-policy/ when I assumed the responsibilities of comments editor. I sought guidance only once, on day two, related to the comment at this link.:
I was counseled to look for details in each comment that merit approval of the comment. Since the text of the details of the comment linked directly above are visible, you have an opportunity to grasp why the comment you protest my approval of was approved.
I don’t believe it is reasonable to think you are treated less fairly than anyone else who has submitted 2,600 comments in which some include the claims and opinions you have presented. Please consider following the comment guidelines more closely. You included supporting links in a recent comment. Is your comment an attempt to argue that including stronger support in your comments is not to your benefit?
“I was unaware of the fact that Naval servicemen have ever been referred to as ” leathernecks”.
You aren’t aware of a lot of things Photon.
But what I was referring to was not what these military people were referred to, I mean the condition of a persons skin who has spent a lot of time in the sun. The neck being exposed when wearing a T-shirt is a common cause of having a leathery neck.
The post-mortem changes 8-12 hours after death, are not going to change a bullet wound from the back into a bullet wound in the neck “doctor”.
Your attempt at distraction from that central fact is well noted here. Most of what you have had to say on this page is an attempt to distract from that fact.
I would propose that most of the readers and commentators here are as fed up with your word games as I am.
If the moderator would like a link to a source for my last comment:
‘I would propose that most of the readers and commentators here are as fed up with your word games as I am.’
What I refer to is Photon’s obnoxious redundancy:
the state of being not or no longer needed or useful.
“the redundancy of 19th-century heavy plant machinery”
the use of words or data that could be omitted without loss of meaning or function; repetition or superfluity of information.
synonyms: superfluity, unnecessariness, excess
“redundancy in language”
Point well taken, Tom S. I have posted too often.
But as a moderator haven’t you become as much a part of the discussion as anybody else?
If folks on this site can’t accept the fact that JFK had adrenal insufficiency, developed typical changes associated with the therapy for that disorder,was noted to have those changes by a pathologist who attended the autopsy, refuse to believe that those documented changes affected JFK’s neck and back tissues and his cervical posture thereby rendering assumptions of where the back wound was located inaccurate-well, they are incapable of accepting the truth, no matter how many links are posted. Of course, if you claim that nothing that I have posted in regard to this matter is true it is easy to dismiss. Perhaps it is best to not post at all as ignorance is bliss.
You aren’t clearing up any ignorance. All you’ve posted are your own speculative conclusions based on still pictures that have no relevance to the single bullet theory.
If we can get back to the actual evidence from the event, to believe the single bullet theory, one would have to ignore the VISUAL evidence that Connolly’s wrist is injured AFTER JFK was already shot and is already beginning to reach at his chest or neck after the limo emerges from behind the freeway sign in Zapruder film frame 224. Again, you are spinning your wheels and wasting readers’ time in proving:
• JFK’s alleged cervical posture would have allowed the single bullet fantasy
• That a bullet moving at an assumed 2,000 fps fired out of a rusty barrel that showed no signs of being fired from an inaccurate trajectory claimed by the WCR could enter JFK’s back, pause for a couple frames somewhere internally in JFK’s upper body, and exit higher out of his throat in a straight line into John Connolly without damaging any bone in JFK and without taking any damage whatsoever in hitting Connolly’s wrist.
You aren’t clearing up any ignorance – you are continuing to spreading it.
“Mr. Stirlen hasn’t posted a link.” Uh, yes he has. I can give you BOOKS to read about Dulles and his murderous ways. As a matter of fact, I HAVE. Please don’t claim something about me that is not true. Unlike the WC, I can and will support anything and everything I say. Here is the partial list again.
Endless Enemies by Jonathan Kwitny.
The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein
I will be MORE than happy to give you additional books, but I am quite sure you will not read anything I have suggested. However, please don’t spill your BS about what I won’t do, when in fact, I have, time and time again.
Did you mean to say “…the Dulles motorcade.”…?
A little Freudian to say the least….
Your reliance on tissue distribution caused by JFK’s Addison’s therapies is insufficient in explaining the wound ballistics required to substantiate the Warren Commissions conclusions about the trajectory and damage caused by the bullet with a mind of its own. What does your claim of JFK’s alleged cervical lordosis have to do with the single bullet fantasy?
(John Nichols wrote about JFK’s adrenal issues in the JAMA in the July 1967 issue. The Search for JFK, written in 1976, discussed JFK’s adrenal issue 16 years before Karnei’s irrelevant but still limited hangout in High Treason 2. There was no “finally revealed” event in 1992 – it just got more promo funding for disinformational optics.)
You are like a squid — always secreting gallons and gallons of digital ink in transparent attempts to cloud the issues.
But no amount of clumsy attempts at obfuscation can change the fact that we can see for ourselves exactly what JFK looked like despite his medical problems.
We have the pictures!
We have pictures from the relevant moment, and from the only point of view that is relevant to this discussion: a view from the side.
How he looked from the side in reality, versus how he looked from the side according to Dale Myers.
Years ago, in a review of Myers’s pseudoscientific work, I published two pictures placed side by side, showing reality versus Dale Myers’s hilariously grotesque version.
Your attempts to defend Myers are as grotesque as his images.
Neither JFK’s medical condition, nor his posture, put his back wound above his throat wound.
We have plenty of pictures to prove it. What’s more, we have eyes. But you’re like Chico Marx who said, “Who you gonna believe? Me, or your own eyes?”
There is nothing clumsy about medical facts-facts that obviously you are not aware of nor understand. As I said, a trained medical observer can see the cushingoid appearence that JFK developed in the late 1950s -an appearence that even the Parkland doctors were aware of without any medical history, leading them to give him a stress dose of steroids even before Burkley advised them to do so.
Remember, the Kennedy family and staff were paranoid about the true nature of Kennedy’s adrenal insufficiency being revealed. I am convinced that Salinger tried to suppress the Santa Monica pictures precisely because any interested physician would recognize JFK’s cushingoid facies .If you note the comments of the people around him on the beach they were amazed at his robust appearence.
I have been called a squid in the past, but only by Marines. I always know that I have hit a homer when those that disagree with me resort to personal insults-it is the mark of those who can’t come up with rational alternative explanations.
So Salinger led a conspiracy to cover up JFK’s hunch backed neck. Heretofore unknown about by the lone nut crowd but exposed by photons.
But this had nothing to do with the trajectory of the Magic Pristine bullet through JFK’s unseen overgrown neck.
Mamma’s gonna buy me a Mockingbird, if that mockingbird don’t sing…
Salinger tried to suppress the release of the Santa Monica photo posted.if you can’t agree with that fact perhaps you should review the article in the L.A. Times .
Why else would Salinger want to suppress a picture of a hale and hearty JFK? You probably don’t remember but that was a time when the administration was pushing physical fitness and 50 mile hikes were a very visible part of that campaign. Remember the term ” with vigor”?
“Why else would Salinger want to suppress a picture of a hale and hearty JFK?”~Photon
Perhaps what might be interpreted as Quasimoto’s lecherous grin at Esmeralda in the polkadot bikini.
You have NOT hit a home run on this issue, or any issue for that matter. You post NO links, you give NO reference to your sources, and you use a bogus name and bogus credentials to “bolster” your arguments on this website.
Let me ask you again, since you have DUCKED this question on 4 separate occasions. You ridicule Talbot’s book, because of where Dulles was or was not. Who cares? You also say that poor ol’ Allen was an honest man who is unjustly accused on this website, which you know is a load of crap.
So, Photon, I shall ask again:
1. Where in the US constitution is an US president or CIA director permitted to invade and overthrow a democratically elected leader in a foreign country for money?
2. How much time did Dulles and Eisenhower and Kennedy spend in jail for committing a criminal act?
3. How do you know for certain that Dulles was not involved in the murder of JFK, when he clearly had NO problem murdering people in places such as South America and Iran?
4. How was Allen Dulles an honorable man? He was a murderer. The only difference between Al Dulles and Al Capone was their street address. Why did one end up in jail, and the other is a “patriot” in your eyes?
You can argue about JFK”s carbon fiber neck and how it was able to make a bullet traveling at 2,000 feet per second due crazy things, but how about an honest answer from you about Mr. Dulles?
If you are going to canonize Allen Dulles, you need to provide proof for that process to begin. I believe the vatican requires two miracles. I doubt you can find one, let alone two. I, however, can give you TWO places where Dulles committed CRIMINAL acts: Iran and South America.
April 15, 2016 at 1:13 pm
“I, however, can give you TWO places where Dulles committed CRIMINAL acts: Iran and South America.’
Steve, I ask again; If Iran and Guatemala were criminal acts (and I think they were or should have been) don’t we also have to call the Bay of Pigs and the overthrow of Ngo Dinh Diem a criminal act also? I see little or no difference in the goal or mission of these 4 operations.
I have seen bullets do “crazy things” before. Please note I’m not saying the bullet you are discussing did a crazy thing. To me the evidence has been edited and manipulated to the point I’m not sure what the hell that bullet did. So I have no comment on that bullet. It has been my experience that the higher the velocity, the lighter the bullet weight the more probability of a bullet “going crazy”. A M-16 fits this bill. The Carcano not so much.
You are quite correct in stating the light weight and high velocity of the 5.56mm bullet fired by the M-16 rifle were factors in making this bullet do unusual things in wounds that were not observed by other full metal jacket bullets in similar wounds. However, the 5.56mm bullet possessed an engineered feature that was designed to exaggerate the effects of this light weight, high velocity bullet.
While the 5.56x45mm cartridge offered the soldier the advantage of being able to carry a lighter weapon and far more ammo than he had previously experienced, the early days of the Viet Nam War quickly revealed the inadequate stopping power of this cartridge. In short, enemy combatants did not fall over dead after being struck by this round, much like the 6.5mm Carcano, and it was often necessary to shoot an enemy soldier several times to stop him.
While never officially announced, the bullets fired from the 5.56mm cartridges soon were being made with weak “cannelures” on them. This is the narrow band circling the mid point of a bullet, as seen below:
Weakening the cannelure had the effect of weakening the bullet jacket at its mid point, causing this bullet to yaw, bend and break at the cannelure after travelling about 12 cm. in soft tissue. This not only greatly increases the wound cavity, it also causes severe additional wounding from the fragmentation of the rear end of the bullet, once it breaks apart from the nose. As the nose also flattens, it tends to do much greater damage and go in more unexpected directions than one would expect of a FMJ bullet.
An excellent article discussing the terminal ballistics of the 5.56mm cartridge can be found at this address:
This article was written by a colonel in the Medical Corps of the US Army, who is also Director of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory at the Letterman Army Institute of Research, Presidio of San Francisco, California.
it is nice to hear from you again. I was unaware that I had not answered your questions before, and I certainly apologize.
Hell, yes the BOP and ANYTHING to do with Vietnam were criminal acts and EVERYONE involved should have been prosecuted. That includes Kennedy. Like I have said before, I am not a “Camelot Shiner”—I think that is your term for the believers that Kennedy was some kind of mystical figure. He was a bought and paid for politician. He was as guilty or guiltier than anyone. I always thought LBJ was the worst president I have ever studied, but then your home state of Texas gave us George W. Bush. How he could send men to war after the crap he pulled to get out of Vietnam is beyond me.
On a side note, I eat breakfast every morning at my local McDonald’s with a man who served in Vietnam. He was exposed on multiple occasions to agent orange, as it was his job to search fields—he and his service dog. I don’t know all of the details, because he doesn’t say a bunch about Vietnam. However, he has neuropathy, he is slowly going blind, and his liver is beginning to fail. It ANGERS me beyond words that while this man suffers every day, McNamara can write a book—saying it was wrong and he knew it then— before he dies to clear his conscience. How did that SOB escape jail time? Why does LBJ have a library in his “honor?” He should have had a permanent jail cell, along with McNamara and Dulles and Lemay and any one of those other thugs.
So yes, the BOP is on Kennedy. Completely. It was criminal. As far as I can tell, the invasion was to overthrow Castro to open up the casinos for the mob.
The US democratic system is broken. Damaged beyond repair. It will one day collapse. And it will be corrupt politicians and bureaucrats that will be the cause. Politicians from BOTH sides of the aisle. The majority of us will suffer because of the misdeeds of the few.
What would you expect would happen? This once was an “abnormal neck” discussion and then you addressed Bill and mentioned “V…….”. This thread is now a textbook example…. If this thread was not a “Comment of the week” thread, the newest off-topic, “V…….” related comments would not appear. I authored the thread and I have the leeway to approve what is included in submitted comments. I cannot take that license in threads presumed to discuss articles I am not the author of.
Commenters can decide if they intend this particular discussion to be diverted from the topic, but is that
a result the majority of readers will be impressed with?
“Hell, yes the BOP and ANYTHING to do with Vietnam were criminal acts and EVERYONE involved should have been prosecuted. That includes Kennedy.”~Steve Stirlen
Okay Steve, since you are throwing a blanket party here, and say “that includes Kennedy,” why stop there?
If you recall the Nuremberg Principles state that “following orders is not an excuse for war crimes.”
If we accept that BOP and Vietnam were wars of aggression, then we must accept that every participant in these operations were guilty of that crime.
So your unfortunate breakfast pal suffering the effects of Agent Orange is no less guilty than the men who’s orders he followed. Bill Clarke is no less guilty than the men who ordered him into battle in a war of aggression.
Almost ever single one of the guys I grew up with, who volunteered for the Marines and were sent to the war of aggression in Vietnam were guilty of the same charges.
All of those who supported and support these continuing wars of aggression are no less guilty than the leadership that they blindly follow.
What does it mean to be well adjusted in a pathological society? You’re an adult Steve, you are capable of honestly answering that question. Either that or you are willing to make excuses for some, and lay blame on others.
April 16, 2016 at 6:12 am
“You are quite correct in stating the light weight and high velocity of the 5.56mm bullet fired by the M-16 rifle were factors in making this bullet do unusual things in wounds that were not observed by other full metal jacket bullets in similar wounds.”
A very good reference Bob. Thanks. I read part of it and saved it to read probably tonight. If the old boy worked on bullet wounds around Da Nang he had a lot of practice.
I am curious to know why a Carcano bullet, or an M16 is being discussed here. We have no certainty that either type was fired in Dealey Plaza that day.
The chain of custody for the Parkland Bullet to CE399 is broken.
There is the possibility that the bullets fired were 30.06, like the one Tomlinson found at Parkland. There is the possibility of several different rifles and ammunition was used.
Offering assumptions based on presumptions leaves one on shaky ground.
April 16, 2016 at 6:08 pm
“I always thought LBJ was the worst president I have ever studied, but then your home state of Texas gave us George W. Bush. How he could send men to war after the crap he pulled to get out of Vietnam is beyond me.”
Bang on, Steve. I certainly agree with you here. However, I must protest the lumping of the Bush family with Texas. Shrub Bush might have lived here but at heart he was a Yankee. The whole bunch was Yankees. Bush, Chenny and Wolfowitz were “Chicken Hawks”. They were chicken when it was their time to sling some lead but were brave in sending other men to die. Disgusting.
I hate McNamara. Still do, always will. Back in my drinking days I think I could have shot him. His book was crap. DiEugenio thinks it wonderful but David Halberstam called the book “shocking dishonest”. I believe Halberstam traveled on a much higher plane than Big Jim.
April 16, 2016 at 6:50 pm
“Okay Steve, since you are throwing a blanket party here, and say “that includes Kennedy,” why stop there? “
“If you recall the Nuremberg Principles state that “following orders is not an excuse for war crimes.”
“If we accept that BOP and Vietnam were wars of aggression, then we must accept that every participant in these operations were guilty of that crime.”
Have we ever had a war of NON-agression? How would that work? To convert the attack to no aggression?
“So your unfortunate breakfast pal suffering the effects of Agent Orange is no less guilty than the men who’s orders he followed. Bill Clarke is no less guilty than the men who ordered him into battle in a war of aggression. “
Congratulations Whitten. You finally got one right about Vietnam. I have a lot of guilt about Vietnam. Mostly concerning the one man I lost, the others badly wounded and the fact that we went off and left those poor people to the communist. I have no guilt about war crimes, and that is what dives you here, because I didn’t commit any and didn’t allow my men to do so.
“Almost ever single one of the guys I grew up with, who volunteered for the Marines and were sent to the war of aggression in Vietnam were guilty of the same charges.”
Another Whitten exaggeration I believe. You don’t know what these Marines did. You didn’t serve with them. And please don’t tell me they “told you”.
“All of those who supported and support these continuing wars of aggression are no less guilty than the leadership that they blindly follow. “
Do you pay your taxes Whitten. You do know where the money comes from to buy bullets and chow don’t you? Welcome to the club.
“What does it mean to be well adjusted in a pathological society? You’re an adult Steve, you are capable of honestly answering that question. Either that or you are willing to make excuses for some, and lay blame on others.”
Uh, Steve is an adult and Steve ALWAYS answers each and every question truthfully and honestly. However, you need to know that I don’t “follow the leader,” and thanks to my parents, my mom especially, I am quite able to think for myself.
You have asked a complex question. Please don’t expect a cookie cutter answer. If you have any questions about what I have to say, feel free to ask me.
Do I think Bill Clarke is as guilty as LBJ or JFK or the entire Congress in 1963-65 for the misdeeds in Vietnam? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Did Mr. Clarke declare war under false pretenses, i.e. the Gulf of Tonkin incident? No. LBJ did. Did Bill vote to go to war? Nope. The Senate did. Did Bill investigate the claims about the Gulf of Tonkin to find out if there was any truth to what had happened? Nope. NO ONE in Congress did either. That was their JOB. To serve the interests of the people of the US. That was not Mr. Clarke’s job. So, is Mr. Clarke as guilty as LBJ or JFK or McNamara. HELL, NO, not by a long shot.
You could just easily point the finger of blame at you and I. We are the buffoons that continue to elect the same jackasses that keep this perpetual war machine in full drive, and allow the fear meter to run amok. If Mr. Clarke is guilty, then so I am I and so are you. He may have pulled a trigger in Vietnam—I don’t want to speak for Bill—but you and I pull a lever very four years. If you and I elect war mongers like George W. Bush and his gang of thugs, then the difference between Bill, myself, and you is what?
In WW2 Germany and the Soviet Union, failing to do your duty earned you a bullet to the head. During Vietnam, failing to do your duty landed you in jail and a chance at a life, because your ability to get a job or go to college was almost nil. Stalin and Hitler killed you immediately, LBJ did it slowly. However, all three would eliminate you.
I was not of age during Vietnam. I would have headed to Canada had I been of age. I would have been a “draft dodger.” Not because I am afraid to die, but I don’t believe in killing someone so that Halliburton and Bechtel can make scads and scads of money off of the lives of dead people, whether they are Americans or Vietnamese or space aliens.
So, no, I am not going to blame Mr. Clarke. In fact, if I could meet him, I would say thank you for having the guts to travel to Southeast Asia. I would like to buy him a Coke at my local McDonald’s.
However, LBJ and McNamara and Rumsfeld and Bush and Kennedy and Lemay and Dulles and Ford and Nixon and Reagan and all the members of Congress and our wonderful non-biased Supreme Court that tells us that you can’t sue a government official during times of “war?” I would very much like to raise the Titanic, buy them all, or at least as many as could fit on the grand ship, a ticket to the South Pole during the peak of iceberg season. Oh, and I would make sure to disable the radar system before the voyage began.
“I have no guilt about war crimes, and that is what dives you here, because I didn’t commit any and didn’t allow my men to do so.”~Bill Clarke
You participated in a war of aggression. You were sent half way around the world to attack a people of another land. Whether you “feel” guilt or not has no bearing on the moral and ethical matters at hand.
I think your regret about leaving “those poor people to the communist.” is telling for it’s lack of contrition for the aggression you were part of.
You have no idea of what I did as well as refused to do in protest to the war, do not pretend you do.
I am not the one who brought up the subject of judging our fellows. I am just attempting to provide a reasonable criteria for doing so, if we are going to do it.
I do happen to think that the critique is in fact a necessary one. If we are to claim to be responsible rational individuals, then for the sake of the principles of Liberty & Justice, we must stand to reason.
Who has not figured out by now that war is mass murder organized by states?
Who is still in the dark as to the fact that war has become ubiquitous, constant and permanent — that this society is in fact based on war.
Those who have not figured this out are delusional.
…And this WAS a “neck” discussion thread, and as has happened in all other threads in which Vietnam is
introduced, the discussion is derailed. If the topic is not about Vietnam or the Diem coup, and you do
not see your submitted comment touching on Vietnam, there should be no reason to ask why.
“I don’t want to speak for Bill—but you and I pull a lever very four years.”~Steve Stirlen
I am going to address this one point Steve, and then suggest you drop it.
I haven’t voted but one time in my entire life, that was as a lark for Ross Perot. Because he was a funny little man that squeaks when he talks.
I have argued for years that voting in just burlesque theater, that the elites choose who will be part of their so-called government.
I have been outspoken against war from the time I was a sophomore in HS. I came very close to being sent to prison for speaking out against the war while I was at boot camp at Fort Lackland AFBase. I was finally discharged as a ‘Conscientious Objector’ thanks to an interview with a quite enlightened base commander.
If you think bucking the system is hard in the marketplace of jobs and such, try to buck the system when in military boot camp.
Neck! Necks!?!? YOU put YOUR neck on the line like that someday, and then tell me that I am as guilty as those who go along to get along.
April 17, 2016 at 3:08 pm
“What would you expect would happen? This once was an “abnormal neck” discussion and then you addressed Bill and mentioned “V…….”.
The fact that you don’t spell the name of that country tells me we have a bigger problem than I thought.
I’ll do the best I can to limit my comments to the absolute necessary. I passed comment on two of Whitten’s BS today so I’m off to a good start here.
I do most certainly appreciate you allowing me to defend myself, my men and Whitten’s Marine “friends” about Witten’s war crime charges crap. Thank you.
I thought this was a website about the murder of JFK? Am I correct?
Uh, correct me if I am wrong, but two of the PRIME candidates for a conspiracy if there is indeed one are the military industrial complex, and the CIA. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t the Vietnam War the result of the collusion between the military industrial complex and the CIA and its dirty tricks? What is wrong with answering a man who actually served in Vietnam his opinion about the war and the BIGGEST war criminal of them all, outside of LBJ, Allen Dulles?
This neck condition? Really? We are talking about JFK’s neck and how it supposedly affected a missile traveling 2,000 feet per second? Have we run out of ACTUAL topics related to the assassination? This is Photon’s gift to us. Surely, you are not giving this BS more credence than what Photon usually spills out, are you? First, Connally’s shirt and suit coat had smaller than normal bullet holes because they were washed and pressed, and now he is selling us this neck crap. Really?
I will be a good boy, and stick to the “thread” or comment of the week.
I am just hoping that the next thread will be about Jackie’s pillbox hat and how its aerodynamic shape might have affected the trajectory of the missile…
With all due respect to you, the ONLY person who will tell me to drop it is Tom S. or Jefferson Morley. They own this site, and I play by their rules. Not yours. You asked me a question. I answered your question. If you don’t like my answer, I am truly sorry.
I actually agree with you about voting in the United States—please see an earlier post of mine to Mr. McAdams. However, for you to acquaint Mr. Clarke with the same guilt as LBJ and McNamara and Kennedy is grossly unfair.
April 17, 2016 at 4:53 pm
“With all due respect to you, the ONLY person who will tell me to drop it is Tom S. or Jefferson Morley. They own this site, and I play by their rules. Not yours. You asked me a question. I answered your question. If you don’t like my answer, I am truly sorry.”
He had rather you drop it Steve before you nose around his “I was finally discharged as a ‘Conscientious Objector” BS. They didn’t kick you out for being a conscientious objector. They kicked you out for being a dud, a screw up, crazy (Section 8)or a homosexual among other things.
Conscientious Objectors were sent to non-combat jobs like Chaplin assistant, Admin and the Medics. Of course the poor medic rode with us and was in the thick of things. Each platoon had one. I even had a medic CO for a while. He was a great medic and a good guy.
I appreciate your support.
“He had rather you drop it Steve before you nose around his “I was finally discharged as a ‘Conscientious Objector” BS. They didn’t kick you out for being a conscientious objector. They kicked you out for being a dud, a screw up, crazy (Section 8)or a homosexual among other things.”~Bill Clarke
They did not “kick me out”, I wanted out. I was uncooperative. You speak to a situation you know absolutely nothing about. Your pretense is a glaring absurdity.
“Neither JFK’s medical condition, nor his posture, put his back wound above his neck wound”. Thank you for a succinct rebuttal to photons. Your comments carry weight with some here and rejecting his BS is Very important for those new to the subject. JMO, but thanks from me.
‘We have plenty of pictures to prove it. What’s more, we have eyes. But you’re like Chico Marx who said, “Who you gonna believe? Me, or your own eyes?”’ — Millicent Cranor
photon, can you tell us what you see in this photo of Kennedy greeting a crowd at Love Field? http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184611/
A clothed JFK wearing a suit coat that obscures the back of his neck. What do you see?
Let’s try this photon: view this particular photograph and imagine President Kennedy naked from the waist up and tell us what you see. http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184611/
The exposed part looks normal. The part covered by his suit coat does not appear to be bulging.
That photo of Kennedy from behind, shows a nicely tailored suit coat that fits him perfectly, showing absolutely no bulge in his back nor any trace of abnormality of his neck.
Simple as that!
Have you or anybody else posted a picture with evidence that JFK was wearing a back brace? How about all of the Dallas photographs? We know that he was wearing a brace after leaving AF1-he arrived at Parkland wearing it.
So just because you can’t see the brace while he was clothed he wasn’t wearing it? Just because you can’t see the ACE wraps around his thighs holding said brace in position he wasn’t wearing them?
Why do you think that physical exams are done on unclothed people?
Why did they cut off JFK’s clothes when he reached the ER? Apparently they should have been able to evaluate him totally clothed-at least in Conspiracy Land.
I am sure most here have seen photo’s of JFK’s back brace. It was form fitting and in no way bulky. He was surely wearing it in that picture we just discussed, and it was not apparent in that photo.
Your comment is simply irrelevant, as is par for the course.
“She was practiced at the art of deception. I could tell by her blood stained hands”.
Photon, his back brace would have been less conspicuous than a buffalo hump neck partially because of the flaring of of the coat tails. In addition I feel sure JFK’s tailor would have taken his back brace into account.
Why did they cut his clothes off in the ER ???
The point is, I think your trying to distract us all from the subject of this thread. RE, Your contention JFK had an abnormal Neck. You never mention IT in your post.
No, the issue is that multiple posters here have claimed that JFK’s clothed body should have given evidence of his cushingoid features. And yet a much more bulky object than the JFK ” buffalo hump” is nowhere to be seen in any of the prominent photographs taken during his Presidency. The assumption simply cannot be correct-but it is interesting to see to what ends people will go when presented with facts they do not understand nor can explain.
If Miss Cranor’s claim that there were ” whispers” in the medical community about JFK’s Addison’s Disease since 1954, how can the “research” community be so ignorant about it as proven by the complete lack of knowledge seen of this site since I brought up the issue? Even now, it seems that there is a consensus among posting CTers that JFK didn’t have Addison’s or that he would never manifest changes consistent with treatment of that disease.
I noticed one author claiming that JFK’s tailor could have altered his suits to cover up his back brace. He apparently couldn’t understand that he could have done the same thing to minimize the appearence of his abnormal neck.
Photon, afford all of us the courtesy of posting a link to any image that comports with your description.
IOW, share a link to an image capturing the specific area of the tailored clothing of JFK successfully
concealing a much more bulky object.
Tom S. , you don’t get the point of what I was pointing out-namely, if a tailor could alter a suit to obscure a back brace he could certainly do the same to obscure a less conspicuous buffalo hump-which according to Boswell and Karnei was evident at autopsy.
I don’t believe that he needed a tailor to obscure either.All he needed was to be clothed with a suit and jacket. That point seems to escape a lot of the readers that visit this site. Again, hundreds of photos have been publicized when JFK was wearing a back brace-none of which to my knowledge show any evidence of the brace. The only pictures that I am aware of showing him wearing the brace are very casual poolside photos never meant to be made public.
“And yet a much more bulky object than the JFK ” buffalo hump” is nowhere to be seen in any of the prominent photographs taken during his Presidency.”~Photon
Absurd! A “bulky object”?? Something akin to a girdle?
Here is a video of JFK from behind as he takes off his shirt an runs into the surf at Santa Monica Beach August 19, 1962; his back is as normal as can be:
A photo of JFK in his back brace. Obvious support for LOWER back — does not come up above sternum and has NOTHING to do with his neck.
We have seen JFK shirtless at the beach with a quite normal looking back. We have seen his back brace is no more “bulky” than a girdle. We have found out that Photon has no point to make and this has been an exercise in futility; much ado about nothing. Another of Photon’s silly games.
“The only question remaining is why you continue giving him that control?”
Of course you might grasp the concept of “documentation”; we have documented on the pages of this blog, countless preposterous and absurd commentaries from Photon. This record when combined gives us a vast and detailed profile of a disingenuous shill.
We are all busy writing our own dossiers, for state of course, but also a public record – our own Personal Profile. The one that this anonymous entity calling itself “Photon” has compiled is shameful in it’s disregard for sincerity, common courtesy and civility. So he/she now risks substantial embarrassment if the entity’s true identity is found out.
He makes his own bed Mr May.
Take care now!
It occurs to me that Photon continues baiting you folks and you keep biting. It’s inexplicable. He has demonstrated over time he will not respond to direct questions regarding his qualifications in the medical arena. The only question remaining is why you continue giving him that control?
Yeah Paul, we keep on biting. Trying to confront the disinformation, looking for Truth. FREETHEFILES.
LOL You’re funny, Paul. As if Photon has control over anything here.
Photon’s conduct is the problem.
I’ve seen no evidence yet that there was anything abnormal about JFK’s neck or for that matter how it relates to the assassination if there was. This all seems to be a distraction from relevant issues. Disinformation from a Mockingbird?
No Physician has bothered to comment, ever, on such. His neck appears normal. On 11/22/63 it did have a bullet entrance wound in the front lower throat area per Dr. Perry.
This undescribed, undocumented abnormal neck crap is right up there with with the SS agent accidentally shot JFK BS.
I beleive Photon’s original quote was that Kennedy had an ‘abnormal neck’. It’s a big credibility issue: firstly because no evidence has been produced to support the asertion, and secondly because the asertion is required for the single bullet theory to be valid. Without a strange gap in Kennedy’s spine, aligned perfectly with the trajectectory of a bullet fired from the sixth floor of the TBSD there is no route for the magic bullet. The SBT requires Kennedy to have an ‘abnormal neck’. It’s a big issue.
No Eddy, the abnormal neck has no bearing on the validity of the single bullet issue; the round clearly avoided hitting vital structures as demonstrated by JFK’s reaction in the Zapruder film, although he never took a breath again.
The real issue is the medical ignorance of so many commentators here who make claims about the position of the back wound totally unaware of why those assumptions are not valid. After months no one has still caught on to an issue noted by RFK at the autopsy. As I said, any internist could make the diagnosis.But nobody has taken that step.Why?
Please share evidence of your qualifications to determine that “any internist could make the diagnosis.”
Your are outrageously unreasonable in that you present nothing actually verifiable, yet your history here is of mendacious provocation, an example of this is your reaction to my presenting verifiable evidence just the day before.:
Photon, how dare you come here and repeatedly do what you do, in your comments?
Just simply ask any internist you know to look at the Santa Monica film and ask him to look at JFK ‘s head and neck.
To make it even easier show him a picture of JFK taken any time prior
to his wedding.
I did Photon, I just had three internists over here to look at photo’s of JFK, including the one at the beach. Every single one of them said that they didn’t see any abnormality to Kennedy’s neck.
That settles it. So buzz off.
“What abnormal neck condition are you contemplating? Spasmodic torticollis? It looks normal to me at least in the photo.”
This cost me $35. Photon – You can reimburse me through Tom.
You are projecting the burden of proving your claims onto other people who don’t “just accept” your words. Taking steps to proving your unsubstantiated “abnormal neck condition” claim is your burden. Any steps towards proving your claims are yours to take.
“the abnormal neck has no bearing on the validity of the single bullet issue […] The real issue is the medical ignorance of so many commentators here who make claims about the position of the back wound”~Photon
Both the position & condition of the throat wound, and the position & condition of the back wound are relevant to the single bullet issue.
Photon states that; “The real issue is the medical ignorance of so many commentators here who make claims about the position of the back wound totally unaware of why those assumptions are not valid.”
But it doesn’t matter if one has medical training or is “medically ignorant” to see with one’s very eyes that the back wound is in fact in ‘THE BACK’ not the neck.
That wound is at T-3 as clearly shown in the autopsy photo, as shown on Boswell’s face sheet, as stated on Burkley’s death certificate of JFK; exactly where agents O’Neill & Sibert placed it, where the bullet hole in JFK’s coat was located and correspondingly where the bullet hole in his shirt was.
Photon’s pretense to medical expertise is a bluff, like his pretense to any sort of expertise.
See entire article:
Why; in your mind, did Humes state that Boswell´s face sheet and Rydberg´s drawing were depicting the identical location of the back wound?
Rather than make a comment here myself, I am very interested in reading what Photon might have to say here. He or she has some “splainin’ to do”.
I haven’t seen Photon show us how Oswald acted alone in the assassination
In its report, hearings and exhibits, executive sessions, staff meetings, and other tomfoolery, the Warren Commission didn’t show that either.
Actually they did, but you just can’t accept the evidence.
A solitary, single unit of light does not offer adequate illumination. It leaves the essential darkness in place.
“Can’t” portends a disability. I am disabled from accepting bullshit – as a fully functioning homo sapien, I cogitate, research, and analyze for myself instead of mindlessly “just accepting” what I am told. The President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy concocted a story whose unjustified hypotheses and unsubstantiated conclusions have no standing in reality after independent analysis of the alleged evidence.
Likewise, you refuse to substantiate your “abnormal neck” claims. Your true paradox is showing.
It’s difficult to accept evidence that does not exist.
The WC report is an insult to peoples intelligence….