This photograph, courtesy of Duncan MacDonald, taken several minutes after President Kennedy was shot to death, shows a crowd of people, including newsman Robert MacNeil (later host of MacNeil-Lehrer Newshour), rushing to look at the railroad tracks and parking lot overlooking the motorcade route on November 22, 1963.
There is no disputing that they rushed to that area, known as “the grassy knoll,” because they thought one of the gunshots had come from there. No gunman was ever found there.
A lot of police officers at the scene had the same reaction: 21 JFK cops who heard a grassy knoll shot.
70 thoughts on “Where did the gunshot that killed JFK come from?”
Yes, Willy, that may be the goal, but that’s not what I think happened. But first, NO, you don’t have to spin the cue ball to deflect another, you simply have to aim on your target (another ball) so it hits slightly off center. I’m not saying the assassin intended this… I’m saying that is what likely happened (the shot came in off-center, right of JFK’s midline, left of the shooter even though the shooter meant to hit center). This asymmetrical penetration is why a plume of blood bust out with deflection against the skull flap. Again, spatter went all over, but a certain amount -a large amount- sprayed (or was deflected) back and to the left. Of course its difficult to see this in the Zfilm, but one must surmise such given JFK’s head position.
Well Michael, I liked the way you filled out your theory to Bob above. It is certainly worth consideration. I am worming up to it.
Why shouldn’t you?…. When you play pool you hit the cue ball to angle out the other balls, right? If a frangible bullet hit JFK on his right temple-it wouldn’t simply push him straight back. the force of the bullet, and its explosion internally, sent JFK “back, and to the left”….
“When you play pool you hit the cue ball to angle out the other balls..”~Michael Tyrrell
Yes, but to do this properly you must hit the cue ball at an angle itself and induce spin. You have no such control of generating angular spin to a bullet. The spin to the bullet is caused by rifling in the barrel.
Now to posit that the sniper was such an excellent shot that he would purposely place the shot at a grazing angle to cause “spin” to the “ball” of the head, is to my thinking taking too much of a chance of a miss. The goal of a marksman is to hit the target center mass, head or body shot.
I know I shouldn’t pursue this but, pool shot effect…???
“I know I shouldn’t pursue this but, pool shot effect…???”
You are 100% correct, Ronnie: we should not pursue pool shot analogies, for at least the following reasons:
(1) Pool balls are of the same size; we would require a bullet of the same size as Kennedy’s head. Or, his head the size of a bullet.
(2) The velocities are approximately comparable. Again: we would need the acceleration/speed of Kennedy’s head to be that of a speeding bullet, something only achievable by Superman.
(3) Brains are compressible, billiard balls are the opposite: extremely rigid.
(4) Finally, billiard balls cannot ENTER each other.
Sadly, in her not-highly-academic arguments, Ms. Sherry Fiester uses the pool analogy to explain the left component of the violent back snap.
Furthermore, she claims that brain matter is not compressible.
“The brain cannot be compressed”
That’s not the point Ramon. You could use a pool table analogy, or com pare what happened with any projectile that hits another object and by ricochet influences the movement of the object hit. I came to this assessment well before Sherry Fiester (rest her soul), so I was glad when I discovered she had the same deduction: Given JFK’s position and posture in the limousine, the death-shot could have very likely emanated from somewhere near the SOUTH Knoll (or, quite possibly, from within the box truck seen in the Z-film).
Ronnie, I should add, the head (or course) moved back from being hit frontally, but to the left due to the pool-shot effect. Although the bullet exploded, it also inflicted forces that acted on the skull’s lateral direction.
I am very interested in your theory, as I have many times thought the large truck to be a good place to have shot from. In support of an entrance wound on the left side of the skull is this WC evidence from Dr. Marion Jenkins:
“Dr. JENKINS – No—I don’t know whether this is right or not, but I thought there was a wound on the left temporal area, right in the hairline and right above the zygomatic process.
Mr. SPECTER – The autopsy report discloses no such development, Dr. Jenkins.
Dr. JENKINS – Well, I was feeling for—I was palpating here for a pulse to see whether the closed chest cardiac massage was effective or not and this probably was some blood that had come from the other point and so I thought there was a wound there also.”
Notice that Specter is quick to shut him up on this subject. As to Officer Hargis being hit by debris from the back of the head, it should be remembered that the 1st rule of hydraulics is that pressure is equal in all directions. If, as you say, it was a frangible bullet that entered JFK’s skull, there simply would be nothing left of this bullet to exit, and the blowout hole would be caused by built up pressure, not a bullet.
Just so we are all on the same page, how do you define a frangible bullet, and how do you believe such a bullet is constructed?
Well yes, my thinking has the frangible bullet not blowing out the back of the skull (you won’t see this in the Zfilm), but rather mashing (ugh!) the back of the skull in such a sway that by the time JFK reached Parkland the massive flow of blood out the parietal occipital area caused the shattered rear skull to fall apart -such that it LOOKED like a blowout.
Here’s a passage from Wiki on frangibles:
“A frangible bullet is one that is designed to disintegrate into tiny particles upon impact to minimize their penetration for reasons of range safety, to limit environmental impact, or to limit the danger behind the intended target. Frangible bullets will disintegrate upon contact with a surface harder than the bullet itself. Frangible bullets are often used by shooters engaging in close quarter combat training to avoid ricochets….”
However, my hunch on direction of fire remains the same. Again, I propose the origin as South Knoll, but concealed high up in that tall box-panel truck. Interestingly, when James Tague heard the first shot he thought it “sounded like a cannon”… was that an odd echo from the box? Were the subsequent shots heard actually masking additional shots from the truck? Remember, Tague, in his testimony states that traffic there was at a standstill, but this could have been easily created -so the standstill was not just anticipated -it was planned and exploited.
Note also in the Zfilm that immediately after the death shot a bystander dives and looks back toward the source of what appears to have been a bullet whizzing by. He seems to be peering behind him, not toward the North Knoll.
Further, the pick-up in front of the box-panel truck jolts forward immediately after the death shot. Why? Didn’t he stop to watch the President go by?… which JFK hasn’t quite done yet?… What does he know that bystanders don’t? He’s got room in front of him…. he’s holding up traffic as cover for the concealed shooter. Once the shots are released -and JFK moves on to the underpass- the gig is up and the drivers nervously need to flee, hence the lurch forward (something to this effect -and note that’s not the only truck running interference; a pick up to the side of the box-truck is assuring a clear corridor toward the limo… he’s puttering there… why?…. check it out.).
Lastly, Dark Complected Man is holding up his fist at a point in line with the yellow paint on the curb and the box-truck opposite on Commerce St. DCM, in my view, is so bazaar and conspicuous a “by-stander” with fist in air… is something up with that alignment or what?… he’s signalling those vehicles IMO. And then later there’s talk of him being on a radio. It just looks weird and suspicious when you combine these things. I know Jeff Morley wants facts, and I strongly agree… but this needs review. I’m open to taking criticism. Remember, it was a lack of imagination by the Feds that made us vulnerable on Sept. 11, 2001. Lets investigate!…
The frangible bullet description you quoted refers to a frangible bullet designed as a safe bullet for indoor ranges, and does not go into the territory of lethal frangible bullets. What I mean is, it is close, but there is more.
A hunting version of a frangible bullet is also made, and can be found here: http://www.drtammo.com
The DRT Ammo bullet’s construction is simple. Its core is made from a compressed metal powder and is contained in a copper alloy jacket. The difference between it and a frangible (safe) range bullet is that DRT Ammo incorporates a small hollow point into the nose of their bullet.
These bullets do NOT disintegrate upon impact with skull bone, although they will disintegrate upon impact with concrete or steel. Rather, one of these bullets will penetrate skull bone, leaving a small entrance wound, and continue travelling through the brain.
At this point, the hollow point nose comes into play. As the bullet travels through the semi-liquid matter of the brain, the hollow point cavity fills with this matter, and a tremendous hydraulic pressure begins to build within the nose. This pressure is exerted directly on the compressed metal powder core and, about 2 inches into the brain, the core disintegrates back into a cloud of metal powder. This core halts almost immediately and transfers ALL of its energy to surrounding tissue. The results are devastating and quite lethal. With this complete transfer of energy, it is possible for the victim to be moved away from the shooter. I have seen even simple hollow point rifle bullets pick a deer right off its front feet following a shot to the head.
Bob, Thank you for articulating that description. Yes, the bullet you describe is what I mean, and the Wiki description is of a lesser type in the context in which I’m referring. I hope my selection of description doesn’t confuse anyone. Its the idea of a bullet-projectile penetrating JFK’s skull, and exploding within it that we seem to be in agreement with.
Excellent Bob. I’ve seen similar effect regarding the deer.
I agree with you on DCM being a figure whose behaviour in the crowd stands out. It looks to me that he is not raising his fist but is making a ‘V’ sign. At that time it was not the peace sign that it became associated with during the Vietnam war but a ‘V’ for victory (as per Winston Churchill).
So he is not waving at the President like everyone else. He does not react to the gunshots like everyone else (ducking, running, screaming, running up the knoll) but just sits down on the curb.
Of course, the other notable thing about him is that he has never been identified by anyone (including the WC or the HSCA) even though he was in a prime witness position.
Ronnie, the blood and brain matter were all over, but that which spattered Bobby Hargis -in my scenario- ricocheted off the flap of skull that opened along the top of the President’s right skull (in conjuntion with blasting out the rear of his head). If it was a frangible bullet -which it likely was due to the metallic debris found in the brain/skull cavity- it caused an upward-out explosion of mist, however the skull and scalp bursting up would have deflected much of this matter leftward, perpendicular to the president’s 25 degree position. That blood and brain matter shot high, and more of it hit probably Hargis than the First Lady IMO.
Correction: In Part 2 I mention Google view, but the post shows a Panoramio view. You need to go into Google Earth for Dealey Plaza, and click on Commerce Street. Find that same Pano view, and you’ll see the white SUV and figure I mention above. Apologies for any confusion.
How did this shot blow back blood and brains onto Bobby Hargis to JFK’s left rear?
Stone Unturned Part 2:
So, re Box-Panel theory, do you see where I’m going with this? Think DC Sniper and Oklahoma City…. there’s much you can conceal (including sound and smoke) in a box-panel truck. Okay, yes, creative thinking, but based on real circumstances. The evidence says the shots came straight on to the President’s head -to right of mid-line as he was facing the South Knoll. Witness testimony had some hearing shots coming from that area, but again, like the North or “grassy” knoll, no one was seen shooting.
Examine the attached snap from Google Earth:
( http://www.panoramio.com/photo/7449082 source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com )
Note the point on Commerce Street where the proposed concealed “Box-panel Shooter” would have taken aim (only he would be some 4 feet higher in elevation as this image from the mobile Goolge machine was shot from a lower elevation). The white SUV to the left of the figure in the red top, is where SS100X was located when JFK was hit. Again, the President’s head was turned some 25 degrees to the left when he was shot. This Google snap shows that JFK WAS FACING THIS POINT SQUARELY if his head were erect; allowing a straight shot through his skull -at the time tilted downward- LEFT of midline and exiting out the back of his lower right skull just as the surgeons and Clint Hill said was apparent. Given how the mechanic was at a higher elevation, he was able to clear the limousine roll bar (the windshield would have been out of the way). Further, I’ll go out on a limb here, a shot coming right of mid-line from the TSD window -resulting in a right temple exit wound- would not line up, and therefore have been much less likely.
That there was a tall box-panel truck in Dealey Plaza at the exact time and place that JFK was hit from the circumstantially evident trajectory cone I suggest (and that Ms. Fiester supports) is suspect at minimum, and intensely provocative in the investigatory sense at max. On one hand you could say it was coincidence re the Z film, but the operation appears to have been CONCEALED -it all looks very sophisticated. It probably was.
Lastly, take a look at the Warren Commission re-enactment film on Youtube;18:05 to 18:36 (See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUtJos-wZXI ) Notice first that numerous trucks move through Dealey Plaza, so it would come as no surprise that a truck was there -perfect subterfuge. Second, notice how, in the WC closeup, where a gun site is superimposed, the man modeling as JFK actually turns to the RIGHT (!?!) just before and during arrival at the “x spot” on Elm. This is extremely odd given how JFK turned to the opposite direction.
We need more information on this Box/Panel Concealed Gunman hypothesis.
The D.C. Snipers were shooting at stationary targets from parked positions, close to major highways not crowded with traffic.In Oklahoma City nobody was shooting at the time of the explosion.
The problem with all of these front headshot scenarios is that there is no forensic evidence to support them. Nothing except misinterpreted eye witness testimony ( see the NOVA program showing the Parkland physicians reviewing the National Archives photos and agreeing with their accuracy). There has been no forensic pathologist who has reviewed the data who agrees that any shot that hit JFK came from the front,except Cyril Wecht-and his one out of 30+ interpretation still is based on shots from the rear. As soon as people start postulating that any shot that hit Connolly or JFK came from the front they are no longer credible. It is simple forensic pathology, beyond the level of debate-except for the uninformed or those unwilling to accept that an autopsy is the final true method of establishing a cause of death.
Just look at the convoluted theory above trying to explain a head shot that never occurred , from a vantage point that would entail a shot at a moving target from right to left across the field of view-extremely difficult and as likely to strike the wives as it was to hit the actual victims. Of course, there is not a single shred of evidence that supports it.
“As soon as people start postulating that any shot that hit Connolly or JFK came from the front they are no longer credible. It is simple forensic pathology, beyond the level of debate-except for the uninformed or those unwilling to accept that an autopsy is the final true method of establishing a cause of death.”~Photon
Yes, a proper autopsy by actual forensic pathologists would have been a final true method of establishing a cause of death. Unfortunately the general pathologists Humes and Boswell were not qualified, and bungled the autopsy of the century.
It was hardly coincidence or happenstance that this travesty took place. Just as it was not coincidence that the Warren Commission was established and ran by the perpetrators of the murder.
There is abundant evidence of a front head shot, including the 11/22/63 written statements and medical reports of the Parkland physicians, memorializing their almost uniform observations of a large circular hole in the right rear of JFK’s head, which reports were corroborated in early 1964 by their Warren Commission testimony. The 1988 NOVA program, in which some of the Dallas doctors were shown the autopsy photos including the infamous rear head photo which appears to show no large occipital/parietal hole, put those doctors in the uncomfortable position of trying to reconcile their still vivid, but twenty-five year old memories of the right rear hole and their earlier sworn testimony to that effect, with the autopsy photo, all while the cameras were rolling. They said the photo was essentially consistent with their observations. This, however, does not mean there was no right rear hole as Photon incorrectly concludes. As explained by Dr. McClelland in his sworn deposition testimony to the ARRB in 1998, ten years after the NOVA show, these assertions of consistency were based upon their assumption that the right rear hole was covered by a flap of scalp that was being pulled up over the hole by the autopsy physician whose fingers appear in the photo. McClelland: “There was no hole in the picture that looked like that…I think it may be because if you’ll notice there are some fingers at the top of the photograph apparently pulling a flap of scalp forward, and I think the flap was being pulled over that [right rear] opening when they took the pictures.” (p. 49). Despite the autopsy photograph, McClelland testified before the ARRB that “[t]here was a hole there.” (p. 51). Dr. Paul Peters also subscribed to the skin flap scenario to explain why the right rear hole was not depicted in the autopsy photograph (p. 52). Dr. Peters further testified before the ARRB that, notwithstanding the photograph showing no right rear hole, “I’m certain there was a hole there, too. I walked around and looked in his head. You could look directly into his cranial vault and see cerebral injury to the cerebral cortex and I thought at the time to the cerebellum. So I know the hole was big enough to look into. I estimated it at seven centimeters.” (pp. 51-52). Peters: “…there was about a seven centimeter hole in the occipitoparietal area ” through which it could be observed that “there was obviously quite a bit of brain missing.” (p. 30). McClelland: “It was a very large wound and I would agree that it was at least seven or eight centimeters in diameter and was mostly really in the occipital part of the skull.” (pp. 27-28). At their joint 1998 ARRB deposition Drs. Baxter, Jones, McClelland, Perry, and Peters were read excerpts of their Warren Commission testimony uniformly reporting their collective observations of 11/22/63 of a large right rear hole in JFK’s head. (pp.12-20). After this recitation not one of those physicians in their ARRB testimony recanted their Warren Commission testimony, stated that their prior testimony was in error, or suggested that there was not a right rear hole in JFK’s head.
The NOVA program was another mainstream media attempt to create a false impression of the truth. And it worked to fool some. Others, who value the truth and continue to search for it in the JFK assassination, accept the observations of trained physicians at the time of the events of 1963, memorialized on 11/22/63 and shortly thereafter and corroborated by them in 1998 under oath, of a right rear blow-out, avulsive wound to the rear of JFK’s head. They were not mistaken. Had those Parkland physicians given their testimony at a trial it would have been admissible as expert opinion testimony, i.e., forensic evidence. The government-paid “experts” on subsequent investigation panels relied upon by deniers of the truth, whose findings parroted the Warren Commission’s “truth,” were no more correct than those government “experts” who, at one time in history, thought the earth was the center of the universe, the world was flat, and condemned those who had the courage and foresight to say otherwise. It turns out that they, too, were wrong.
“The 1988 NOVA program, in which some of the Dallas doctors were shown the autopsy photos including the infamous rear head photo which appears to show no large occipital/parietal hole”
Here’s the glaring contradiction:
It comes from this video:
Despite having a color photograph, the WC ordered Ms. Ida Dox (a specialist in highly realistic, photograph-looking drawings) to produce the following:
in which a little hole can be seen (you may need to squint a little). The roots of JFK’s hair are growing away from it.
Photon, instead of trashing conspiracy theories, how about showing support&proof that Oswald, and he alone, shot and killed the President. Can you do that? We know you don’t think it was a conspiracy, but why do you think LHO was the lone shooter?
A new “theory”, but I base the following on apparent and circumstantial evidence:
Stone Unturned? Part 1:
JFK may have been hit fatally from the front, but not, I imagine, from the fence/grassy knoll we often hear about. (This insight came to me well before Sherry Fiester published her book).
It would appear the assassin/mechanic aimed at JFK’s right temple, and shot (many believe) a frangible bullet traversing JFK’s brain longitudinally; blasting the back of his skull without crossing its mid-line. JFK’s movements in the Zapruder film, Malcom Killduff’s gesture at the press conference, and a great number of emergency room surgeon and witnesses testimony support a shot to the temple, and a right rear blow-out (as did Clint Hill). X-rays suggest that JFK’s head cavity was inundated with bullet fragments (Or so I’ve read), suggesting a frangible bullet was very likely used.
SIGNIFICANTLY, In the ‘Z’ film, President Kennedy leans forward, and turns his body slightly left, AND THEN his head is turned some 20 degrees to the left of that, toward the First Lady. If the frangible bullet entered the President’s head at the right temple, and exited (or blasted) the right rear of his skull, SITE GEOMETRY AND THE ALIGNMENT OF THE LIMOUSINE, including the downward pitch of Dealey Plaza indicate a shot from the area opposite “the grassy knoll”…. the SOUTH KNOLL. However, no one witnessed activity there; so less discussion has ensued concerning that part of Dealey Plaza as a shot origin.
The possibility strikes me as provocative and under-examined that no one could actually see what happened because the assassin(s) were hidden in a box-panel truck, IN FRONT OF THE SOUTH KNOLL on Commerce Street (probably driven by Cuban Exiles, and/or Mob). I propose an unusual number of pick-up trucks surrounded a tall box-panel vehicle to “run interference”… by keeping other motorists back, and away. and ensuring a clear shot with no vehicles in the way. That’s right. folks: I propose a sniper was riding flat on a high platform within a box-panel truck (the sniper with his back against its ceiling wearing ear muffs) got an excellent aim through a disguised opening in the left panel of the truck(?), and shot just where the road bends close to the Elm Street “x-point”… after which the assailant team simply drove on to escape detection.
The possibility strikes me as provocative, and yet no one seems to have investigated who the drivers were on Commerce Street that day? No suspicions raised? Does their eyewitness testimony exist with the Dallas PD or the FBI?
Think this is off the charts?… Have a look a Zapruder frames 384 to 433. It IS an odd coincidence, isn’t it?…. all those trucks? Notice the various pick-ups -there are two or three seemingly guiding a tall box/panel truck. Moments after the President’s head explodes, AZ captures a man diving away from that very line of fire…
….. see more in Part 2
Yes Mr. Tyrrell, a truck as you describe is in the traffic on Commerce St. going S/E.
I find the proposition unlikely as there is little way to insure a proper position in moving traffic and keeping it.
This should not be interpreted as endorsing this theory, but James Tague was standing about 30 feet from that truck. He maintained that he got out of his car because traffic came to a complete standstill.
Well yes, and that truck, and its possible escorts, caused the traffic to come to a complete halt. They stopped under the guise of “wanting to see the President go by”… but the real mission -I propose- included waiting for DCMan to signal the shooter inside. I know Jeff Morley isn’t a big fan of such speculations (I appreciate and understand that) but I think this scenario deserves a look.
Also, John R, notice in the Zfilm how the trucks were (nervously?) starting to move after the death shot was fired. If they were there to observe the President, they were in a hurry to miss him drive by at the closest possible point.
Mr. Whitten, all the truck needed was a mere 5 to 10 seconds in “halted traffic”. Remember, this mission would have been rehearsed. The timing would have been critical, of course, but they no dobt had radios. DCMan was signaling just in line with that point (and the yellow paint on the Elm Street curb?)…. it appears he may have been wired and/or has a radio.
I certainly am not saying that your hypothesis is impossible, nor even that it is foolish. It is a novel idea. I do not reject novel ideas for the simple reason they are novel, but by the same token you have to accept that the idea is mere conjecture without some verification. I do see some logistical problems involved.
It could very well be you are right. It could very well be you are wrong. Many issues in this case swing on the same sort of pendulum.
Right front. Overwhelming statements, testimony and evidence that a shot came from that direction.
Bobby Hargis splattered with JFK’s blood and brains. The 21 cops Jeff mentions. O’Donnell, Powers, Yarbarough and the soldier who ducked. Jean Hill, the Newman’s hitting the ground. This list goes on.
The Dallas E.R. Doctors (I.E. Experienced Professional’s with gunshot wounds) observance of a large exit wound in the right rear of the head.
Then there is the red soda pop and the black brother ans sister.
Then there’s that pesky Jim Garrison with Back and to the Left.
Question: What do Nobel award recipient Dr. Luis Walter Alvarez, Penn & Teller (from the University of Nevada) and Mr. Photon have in common?
Answer: They are -presumably- believers and are trying to persuade us that our respected 35th. president was a melon head. Literally.
Seriously: Could folks at least try with a COCONUT?
That fruit would have physical characteristics closer to those of a human head.
I am convinced that Dr. Alvarez died ashamed of that piece. He has been discredited to the point of ridicule. As a fellow Latino and admirer, it saddens me:
Ramon, you should take a look at Josiah Thompson’s presentation at the 2013 Passing the Torch conference in Pittsburgh. He got Luis Alvarez’s notes, and showed them to the audience. It turned out that Alvarez tried a number of items including coconut, and couldn’t produce a jet effect. He then settled on melons until he found just the right size where some jet effect was apparent. He then messed with the ammunition until he could get the effect desired. This took like a year and a half. He then wrote up his article, pretending he’d just stumbled upon the fact you can shoot melons and have them fly back like Kennedy’s head, etc. In other words, it was a deliberate hoax.
I wonder how many research grants Luis Alvarez had from the federal government at the time.
Actually Lattimer used human skulls and exactly duplicated the movement of JFK’s skull following a shot from the rear.
Larry Sturdivan, a research scientist employed by the Army in the area of wound ballistics, showed film to the House Select Committee on Assassinations of tests that were conducted in 1964 on behalf of the Warren Commission in which 10 skulls filled with gelatin and coated with skin and gelatin were fired upon with two Mannlicher-Carcano rifles (including the one recovered from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository). He demonstrated and explained that in all ten cases material was blown out towards the shooter and the skull moved away from the shooter. Sturdivan was not called to testify by the Warren Commission nor were the results of the tests included in the report.
Lattimer filmed the skull shots. I suppose that film is faked, too.
This is about the same spot that Sherry Fiester CSI says the throat and head shot originated from according to her forensic analysis.
This is at the far western end of the plaza, not at the pavilion area where Zapruder was filming from, and the area people who refer to “the grassy knoll” generally claim the shot came from.
Fiester’s calculations are derived from the Z-film using the photogrammetric method: the angle JFK was sitting, the degree of tilt to his head, triangulated from Zapruder’s lens to Kennedy, to the shooter position.
In photogrammetry 3D co-ordinates define the locations of object points in the 3D space.
No Willy, Fiester claims that the shots came from a spot south of the Triple Underpass bridge, nowhere near the north end of the bridge where these people are standing.
You have misinterpreted what her hypothesis actually is. Interesting.
Yes Photon, you are correct, I did not say North nor South, I said West. However your point is taken, the spot Fiester points to is indeed across the street from where this crowd is gathered. That is, the shooter was West of the pavilion but south side of Elm at the overpass.
Photon, again, I don;t think that is a picture of the bridge.
The post below is from a Usenet newsgroup dedicated to Physics.
These are the corresponding images:
The bone and disk are red, the “glue” is blue:
From: Ramon F Herrera
Subject: How does a projectile behave inside (and out) of a human head?
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 11:26:52 -0600
I am sure I don’t have to tell you to whose head I am referring.
Naive debaters contend that the entering projectile can blast the victim away. This was debunked by the MythBusters folks in Discovery Channel.
This is my hypothesis, in slow motion, as it were:
(1) The *pointy* bullet enters the forehead causing little damage, the small orifice cannot possibly move an adult, much less reverse his forward movement.
(2) The cerebral mass accumulates a lot of energy which starts to push the back of the head. This is the principle upon bombs are based.
(3) Meanwhile, the bullet -who is in a real rush, having other businesses to attend (such as being many yards behind the limo, even buried in the pavement at this point) leaves the scene of the crime. The bullet exited through a tiny hole, but left a heck of a mess behind.
(4) Eventually the accumulated and compressed brain matter pushes so hard that a disk (to simplify the math) of occipital bone cannot possibly stay in place and bolts in a backwards motion, in the exact same direction as the projectile.
(5) It was this disk which *PULLED* (not pushed!) the body of a grown up, “back and to the left”.
That model should be simple enough, but it captures the essence.
Can a more qualified poster please continue?
Of course. If you have to refer to a “pointy” bullet I question your grasp of the facts.
Esteemed Mr. Photon:
Percentage of Physics PhDs who agreed with my model: 100%
Percentage of Physics PhDs who disagreed with the Herrera Model: 0%
Just go to the Physics Newsgroup and search the thread named:
“How does a projectile behave inside (and out) of a human head?”
You LN folks will -of course- prefer the 2 alternatives:
Incidentally: Are you aware that every JFK assassination book ever published by Academia/Universities is on the side of Conspiracy?
IOW: Your heroes, the Posners, Bugliosis and McAdamses of the world are told in no uncertain terms, by the Academic Presses:
“We are a responsible institution, with a reputation to uphold: go peddle your snake oil elsewhere.”
Incidentally, are you aware that almost every medical practitioner (including the three principal post mortem investigators) who examined President Kenedy’s wounds in the minutes and hours immediately following his assassination were graduates of reputable schools of medical education which were themselves sanctioned and operated under the control and authority of responsible academic institutions “with reputations to uphold”?
Would it further surprise you that these same individual practitioners might regard their personal, professional reputations as equally worthy of “upholding”?
Medical practitioners and scientists who have examined President Kennedy’s wounds fall into three general categories:
1. Those who had brief but direct contact with, and personally observed at close proximity, the President’s corpse. They personally SAW his wounds. (i.e. medical staff at Parkland as well as witnesses and medical technicians at the Bethesda autopsy)
2. Those who had direct contact with, and personally observed at close proximity, the President’s corpse AND documented the location and extent of his wounds through written notes, radiography and medical photography. This contact was for an extended period of time and was limited to the autopsy investigators.
3. Those who have interviewed Drs. Humes, Boswell and Finck and/or studied the autopsy report, x-rays and photographs.
The often dramatic differences in the professional opinions held within these three categories of examiners are generally attributed to either “honestly held but erroneous conclusions” (not to exclude gross professional incompetence) OR intentional misrepresentation (up to and including criminally conspiratorial acts).
One thing is for certain. President Kennedy was either killed as the result of a criminal homicide or he was not. And to be sure, the reputations of those who may have committed or concealed criminal acts dating as far back as 50-plus years hang in the balance equally with those who, over that same period of time, may have loudly and falsely accused others completely innocent of that same, horrific criminality.
“President Kennedy was either killed as the result of a criminal homicide or he was not.”
Number of people in America who believe president Kennedy was killed as a result of a criminal homicide: 320,000,000
Number of people in America who do not believe president Kennedy was killed as a result of a criminal homicide: 0
Alternatively, we could widen what statisticians call “universe” and use the planet Earth: the result would be 6 billion to 0. Give or take.
“those who, over that same period of time, may have loudly and falsely accused others completely innocent of that same, horrific criminality.”
You just attempted to place Lee, who left a widow and 2 little daughters orphan, in the exact same league as:
– The Mafia
– The CIA
– Cuban extremists
which happen to have in their job description the obligation to commit MURDER.
Photon, I would suggest that what Ramon is referring to is a “sabot”, which is indeed a “pointy bullet”.
But for the entrance wound location, I am in some general agreement with Ramon. The entrance wound is clearly the temporal parietal wound, which enters at a tangential angle, the trajectory of which goes through the right hemisphere of the skull at supersonic speed. This creates a cone-like ‘wake’ that expanded and explodes the brain, ergo; fracturing the skull from within.
A bullet traveling at supersonic speed would certainly have exited the skull at a point in line with the trajectory of the entrance. The over-pressures already creating the fractures in the skull would mean that a small exit wound at the rear, as the material of the brain is not forward of the bullet so would not create the massive exit wound of a larger slower projectile.
What I describe above can be readily seen in the X-rays, and photographs from the autopsy at Bethesda.
That this flies in the face of those claiming fakery of those materials, seems to put my analysis in a “no-mans land” between the ‘conspiracy theorists” and the Warren Commission cult. However I am comfortable in that position, and fairly sure I am correct.
Ramon, the only answers to your internet query are in reference to and supportive of Luis Alvarez’ theories-which are diametrically opposed to yours.
Have you ever taken a college level physics course? The alt.sci.physics website is nothing but a chat room for various topics occasionally related to physics but often not; about every 25th post gets deleted for having nothing to do with the topic. The is no documentation anywhere of the educational backgrounds of the posters; the lack of scientific sophistication in some of the posts suggests that for many it is nonexistent -as I suspect for you.
My professors at MIT would beg to differ, but what do they know anyway…..
-Ramon F Herrera, Internet Pioneer and Co-Founder while at MIT
(*) Muchas Gracias, Al!!!
ps: Al Gore was inducted to the Internet Hall of Fame, where Conservatives need not apply.
pps: Mr. Gore was also appointed by his best friend, Steve Jobs, as Member of the Apple Board of Directors, where Conservatives need not apply.
Did you graduate?
Did you ever take a physics class?
As an addendum: Of COURSE, President Kennedy was killed as the result of a criminal homicide. The question is whether people have been accurately or falsely accused of participating in or concealing a criminal conspiracy associated with that homicide.
Good theory, and I have witnessed this very effect hunting deer with hollow point bullet head shots. However, why do we assume the bullet actually exited the skull? Why can a bullet not break up entirely inside the skull, expending all of its energy and coming to a halt in the process, and still cause a large pressure blowout on an already weakened portion of the skull?
By “already weakened” I am referring to my belief that two bullets entered JFK’s skull, one from the vicinity of the GK, and one from behind. The one from behind made the entrance wound just to the right of the external occipital protuberance, as observed by Humes.
The Z film convinces me of a shot from the fence. The gunman could simply fire, then drop his weapon into the trunk of one of the cars parked along the fence, and walk away. Or, he could climb into the trunk, and wait for an accomplice to drive him away. I recall reading that the entrance to the lot ( in front of the TSBD ) was eventually guarded by DPD, but they allowed some cars to leave after a cursory search. There are two entrances to the parking area today – I’m not sure if there were on 11/22/63.
Too bad they didn’t secure the parking area and TSBD entrances right away. Does anyone recall the book that covered the parking lot guard in detail?
If we believe in the Principles of Mathematics and the Laws of Physics, the fatal shot could only have come from the front and right.
Along the years, the feeble attempts to deny that monumental fact have become few and far in between.
From an amateurs view; there are some big question marks over whether the grassy knoll was exactly where the frontal shot/shots came from. In favour is the large hole in the back of Kennedy’s head and likely small hole in the front. More troublesome are talk of ‘firecrackers’ ‘echoes’ and ‘puffs of smoke’.Perhaps the biggest question mark would be over the Zapruder film, with some experts claiming the head snap is a result of alteration. If you were planning to escape from an assasination you might plan some distraction, like noise and actors to direct attention, while the real assassins calmly walked away unhindered or blended in.
There was no small hole in the front of JFK’s head. There was no large hole in the back of JFK’s head.
If you cannot accept the pathological evidence in the case nor the opinions of over thirty genuine forensic pathologists who were world experts in their field there is no way that you will ever reach the truth.
False claims will never help your argument. Actually these people are at the bridge over the Triple Underpass; they are looking down toward the Stemmons Freeway. When was this photo taken-could they be watching the motorcade on the way to Parkland?
Okay, Photon, go have another coffee, and come back and see if you can’t do better than this. This is one of your more hilarious attempts.
So you think these people were already atop the Triple Underpass at the time of the assassination? Dumb question but, why would they climb over the railing to be on the EAST side of the TUP, in order to watch the motorcade travelling on the Stemmons Freeway, which just happens to be on the WEST side of the TUP?
In my post above I am giving a personal view after a lot of reading. Your unequivocal statement that there was no large hole in the back of Kennedy’s head would only satisfy those persons unwilling to read a lot of testimony, or those who switched off before the HSCA and ARRB. Would you be able to post again giving a more balanced view of primary evidence? Perhaps mentioning the odd witness who saw a large hole on the back of Kennedy’s head?
Here is a good witness site and where they were at the time of the shooting .This say tons.
In 1992, Thomas Evan Robinson, the mortician who prepared Kennedy’s body for burial after the Bethesda autopsy, told Joe West, a private investigator, that he observed a large gaping hole in the back of his head and a smaller wound in the right temple. He told the Assassinations Records Review Board in 1996 that there was a large open wound centrally located, right between the ears where the bone was gone as well as some scalp.
David Regan, I hate to make points like this as they tend to make it appear that I swing to the other camp.
However it is so, that if you read that mortician report, he details how the cavity within the skull had been filled with plaster. The person who did this initial plaster work was obviously unqualified and mixed a batch too hot, that expanded and poured out of the skull, which Robinson had to chip away and out. This would necessarily mean that the bones of the skull, which were already in delicate fractured condition would have been further displaced by the expanding hot plaster of the botched autopsy mix.
The only way that Robinson could mend this situation was a taping together of the skull and reconstructing the whole thing.
Now, this brings us to the point of what Robinson describes as the back part being totally blown out. He is not a witness to the condition of the skull as it arrived at the morgue prior to autopsy. He is describing the condition of the skull after it had been blown out by plaster at the end of the autopsy.
The Darnell film shows people running to this spot in the seconds after the assassination.
There’s no fence on the bridge, Photon. The people shown are exactly where the story says.
Photon: “There was no large hole in the back of JFK’s head.”
Trained observers who actually saw JFK’s head in Dallas disagree, Photon. Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified to the Warren Commission that the “right rear portion of his [JFK’s] head was missing” and that there was “one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.” Parkland Nurse Bowron told the Commission that there was “one large hole” to the “back of his head.” Dr. Charles Carrico testified to the Commission that there was a “5 x 71 centimeter defect in the posterior skull, the occipital region” with an “absence of the calavarium or skull.” Dr. Kemp Clark testified that there was a “large gaping wound in the right posterior”of JFK’s head with cerebral and cerebellar tissue exposed. Dr. Ronald Jones testified to the Commission that “there was a large defect in the back side of the head.” Dr. Paul Peters told the Commission that “in the right occipital/parietal area there was a large defect.” Dr. McClelland testified to the Commission that the right posterior portion of JFK’s skull was extremely blasted out such that “you could actually look down into the skull cavity.” Dr. Malcolm Perry testified that there was a “large avulsive wound in the right posterior cranium.” Many other trained observers saw the same hole in the right rear portion of JFK’s head. They were there. They saw it. The right rear exit would means a shot from the right front.
A terrific summary of some important primary evidence. It’s also worth noting the ‘weighting’ of witness testimony denying a BOH wound towards those in atuhority (Police,FBI,Government). If you accept shots from the front this ‘weighting’ is incredibly significant.
“Actually these people are at the bridge over the Triple Underpass; they are looking down toward the Stemmons Freeway. When was this photo taken-could they be watching the motorcade on the way to Parkland?”~Photon
No they aren’t Photon, they are looking across the railroad tracks of the overpass. Only the people on the other side of this bridge could be looking down toward the Stemmons FWY.
That could support the idea that the “missed” shot came from the GN…as a distraction to help the getaway. The “missed” shot, of course, is the one that caused debris to stike the cheek of James Tague. But as I’ve said, it certainly appears to me, from the Zapruder film, that the fatal shot came on a straight line from the GN.