Secret Service agent: ‘a flurry of shells’

“Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car”.

– Secret Service Agent Roy Kellerman, who rode in the front of the Presidential limousine during JFK’s assassination, describing what the Warren Commission would later describe as a single shot. (Read Kellermans’ testimony here.)

65 thoughts on “Secret Service agent: ‘a flurry of shells’”

  1. Antonio D'Antonio

    Here’s something I discovered early this morning related to shots fired and bullet holes.
    Just in case any of you haven’t already seen it, I wanted to tell you about a short video clip on Youtube titled “Former FBI Agent Recalls Role In JFK Assassination Investigation,” which lasts only 5:31. In the clip, former FBI Agent Robert Frazier talks about his experience in the FBI’s investigation into the JFK assassination. At around the 2:07 to 2:12 mark in the video, he’s holding a picture of the limo windshield that seems to show a bullet hole to the right of the rear view mirror.
    Doug Horne, in an article on dated June 4, 2012, talks about a windshield bullet hole that was witnessed by 6 people.
    At the end of the video clip the former agent mentions conspiracy theories but says that there has never been anything to indicate that anyone else other than Oswald was involved.
    So here’s a video that supports the WC, but contains a picture that could possibly blow a hole in the WC’s findings? (Pun intended!)
    I decided to leave a comment about the windshield picture on the video’s comment board and when I went back to the video about 5 minutes after I left the comment, the comments had been disabled!
    Then I remembered that I had not checked who’s video it is, so when I went back to do so, it indicated that it was the FBI’s!

  2. “In the case of this assassination, and with the Limo carrying JFK about 281 feet from the window, this represents about 1/4th of a second. Just enough time to hear the blast from the rifle…and the impact from it a moment later. Literally….Bang-Bang. That fast.”

    It was 265 feet actually. And, once again, you are confusing the “blast from the rifle” with the “impact from it a moment later”.

    Listen closely; the sound a bullet makes hitting something, be it the frame of a windshield, a President’s head or whatever, is not even close to the sound of a muzzle blast, and only a fraction of the decibel level to boot.

    As I said before, any additional sound resembling a muzzle blast would be an echo heard by an ear witness. If the position of the shooter does not change, and the position of the ear witness does not change, he should hear an identical echo for each muzzle blast heard.

    If there were three shots, and there were echoes, each ear witness should have heard six muzzle blasts in total.

    The rest of your material is not even worth the time it takes to read it. Might I suggest you join a gun club and get some actual firearm experience?

  3. No Bob. I’m not saying any of the conditions you are mentioning.

    I’m saying that the echo pattern of ANYTHING is completely dependent on the objects it hits and the distance back to ANY ear, device, or object receiving it. A report, from a rifle in this case, is approximately 1,088 fps, simply due to air temperature and things like feet above sea level.

    In the case of this assassination, and with the Limo carrying JFK about 281 feet from the window, this represents about 1/4th of a second. Just enough time to hear the blast from the rifle…and the impact from it a moment later. Literally….Bang-Bang. That fast.

    In the case of the Limo carrying JFK the windows were down on both the driver side and the passenger side of the front seats. However, a rifle report, fired in the direction of the Limo would be very loud (except in the case of the first shot’s sound waves being intercepted by the tree which can explain why is was not heard clearly by all) . With the car being almost moving directly away from the window by the time of the 3rd shot..and that sound being collected and funneled along the window and dash and then released backward…it would sound very loud…almost like a megaphone in reverse.

    It is just basic physics. First rifle shot was muffled by the tree and the surfaces of it. Even to the point that it MAY very well be that Oswald fired the shot with the rifle more ‘inside’ the window vs. leaning out (as was witnessed in the last shot).

    This possibility also given credence by the secretary on the first floor who likened the shot she heard as a boom. Her name may be Mrs Reed..but I am not going to take the time to look her up. She is also the person who saw Oswald Leave the building later on.

    As for the second and third shots….nothing to deflect the noise back as the car moved further down the street. However…those below would still be hearing patterns reverberating back and confusing them as to direction.

    Just simple physics. Why did witnesses not hear 6 shots? Well…many reasons. Some of which are: 1. Never even heard the first shot. 2. Never identified the shot beyond that of a motorcycle backfire (which Nellie Connally said was occurring often). 3. Had a clear and unobstructed view and then only heard 3 shots. 4. were busy running….etc.

    Even if you flip it around to fit a Conspiracy: What you heard in that Plaza was dependent on where you stood (on the street). Sat (even in the limo itself), etc.

    Just simple physics and sound patterns. Lastly…..don’t ever forget the Robert Hughes Film. Taken from across the street. In it you can see ‘motion’ as JFK’s Limo goes underneath the Book Depository.

    So: Take the Film and add in the Shells (which some say were plants), the ‘motion’, Oswald’s Rifle, Brennens testimony and the kids who also testified he saw the shooter as well as the photographer and the other motorcade journalist who glanced up to see the rifle being taken back into the window. They demonstrate a pattern of reality.

    Can one of them be picked apart? Possibly. But all of them. Nope. Dealey Plaza is simply a place that lends itself to very interesting sounds simply due to the design of it.

    Anyway….I find it valid. Thanks.

  4. Hi Paul

    Apologies for not getting back to you earlier. The fact that it is Kellerman that claims JFK spoke gives it some credibility as of all the occupants in the car his is the least inaccurate testimony of what happened (compared to the Zapruder film).

    And as you say if he did speak then it could only have been then. Sounds like you believe that he was hit at least 3 times though?

    And I guess I’d still wonder why Kellerman who was one of the furtherest away from JFK heard him but no-one else did.

    1. Vanessa-was it Kellerman who said something to the effect “I know JFK spoke right then because I know that Boston dialect”? No one else in the car had a Boston dialect. As for the number of times hit, yes I do believe more than 3. The back, two headshots(being the back of the head and his forehead), and the one to the right temple, with the mercury ammo, that killed him.

  5. For Vanessa asking me why I thought the back wound is what made JFK say “My God I am hit!” That was the first time he was hit and was able to react to it. It could have come from the TSBD, the Dal-Tex Bldg. or, as I’ve been reading, from street level(Roscoe White).

  6. Photon
    April 26, 2015 at 2:56 pm
    Bob, what would be ” the obvious evidence ” of a pneumothorax in an unconscious individual who was not breathing?
    He also thought JFK had a left temporal wound-so does that mean he had to have had one?
    Tell me how you have come to this conclusion of JFK having a pneumothorax when no other medical professional has?
    JFK was observed, in Trauma Room One, to be experiencing agonal breathing. While agonal breathing is not true respiration, it is a sign that JFK was possibly breathing right up to the point the Parkland doctors observed him.

    Can you prove JFK was NOT breathing right up to this point?

    From the Warren Commission testimony of Dr. Marion T. Jenkins:

    “Dr. JENKINS – Well, I was aware of what he was in an agonal state. This is not a too unfamiliar state that we see in the Service, as much trauma as we see, that is, he had the agonal respiratory gasp made up of jerking movements of the mylohyoid group of muscles. These are referred to sometimes as chin jerk, tracheal tug or agonal muscles of respiration. He had this characteristic of respiration. His eyes were opened and somewhat exophthalmic and color was greatly suffused, cyanotic—a purplish cyanosis.”

    Further testimony from Dr. Jenkins:

    “About this time Drs. Kemp Clark and Paul Peters came in, and Dr. Peters because of the appearance of the right chest, the obvious physical characteristics of a pneumothorax, put in a closed chest drainage chest tube. Because I felt no peripheral pulse and was not aware of any pulse, I reported this to Dr. Clark and he started closed chest cardiac massage.”

    Take careful note that Dr. Jenkins refers to the “appearance of the RIGHT chest, the obvious physical characteristics of a PNEUMOTHORAX…..”

    1. P.S.

      In a tension pneumothorax, the built up air pressure in the pleural space surrounding the affected lung does not escape just because the patient stops breathin.

    2. You still can’t tell us what the ” obvious signs of a pneumothorax” were. Since your whole hypothesis is based on the rushed observations of a handful of doctors it would be of benefit for you to clarify what those observations were, particularly when the chest tube attempts never penetrated the parietal pleura.
      There was no ptx noted at autopsy. There was no evidence of ptx on post-mortem x-rays. How do you explain that?
      Why isn’t there a single health care professional who has reviewed the case that agrees with you?
      As I previously stated the standard of care in trauma centers in the U.S. is to place chest tubes in episodes of chest trauma, regardless of actual evidence of a ptx.The presence of a chest tube does NOT confirm that an actual ptx is present.
      Can you post the name of any other researcher that actually agrees with you on this topic? How can you have a tension pneumothorax in an individual who is not breathing?
      Do you even know what the signs of a pneumothorax are?

      1. Chest tubes did not penetrate the parietal pleura? This is what was reported at the autopsy. According to your side, the autopsy doctors couldn’t even get the entrance wound in the skull within 4 inches, so how trustworthy were they?

        Chest tubes inserted as standard procedure? This is true, BUT, they are usually placed on BOTH sides. Why was only a right chest tube inserted into JFK?

        If JFK was breathing just prior to arrival at Parkland, the right pleural cavity would still be full of air, despite the fact he stopped breathing at that point.

        Sign of tension pneumothorax in right lung: trachea deviated somewhat to the left, as noted by Parkland doctors. Care to see the statement?

        1. Why? A pneumothorax is not the only cause of a deviated trachea. Why don’t you also mention Kemp Clark’s opinion in his Warren testimony where he specifically addresses this issue.
          JFK never took a breath after he was hit in the back through the neck.He never had respiration sufficient to generate a tension pneumothorax even if he had a pleura tear, which the autopsy conclusively proved he didn’t have.
          How about posting one health care professional who agrees with your diagnosis.Did any of the Parkland doctors claim that he had a ptx after the Warren Report came out?

  7. Bill

    I’m afraid you have a very confused perception of what a muzzle blast from a rifle sounds like, and how an echo from a muzzle blast sounds as well.

    Your analogy of Elm St. being “L” shaped is confusing, as well. Are you saying Oswald would still be shooting at the limo, once it had turned a corner, and was out of sight on the second part of the “L”?

    Luckily, for you, all of the witnesses on Elm St. that heard three shots were out in the open. Most importantly, it is the muzzle blast originating at the rifle that they will hear as the gun shot. For that reason, each shot should sound identical to each witness. ALSO, if they hear an echo from a muzzle blast from one shot, they should hear an identical echo from each of the muzzle blasts.

    It’s quite simple, if you put a little thought into it. If there is one shooter in one position, and if the position of the ear witness does not change, each shot from the rifle (plus echoes) will be heard by an ear witness as identical to the first shot.

    Once again, Bill, if you believe the rapid BANG-BANG (less than one second apart) of the last two shots was due to an echo, and you also believe three shots were fired, why did witnesses not hear six shots in total?

    Or, if you believe the last shot heard was an echo, do you believe only two shots were fired?

  8. In Kellerman’s testimony, he openly admits that the “flurry” consisted of only two shots.

    I believe the reason he referred to it as a flurry is that the two bullets arrived in the limo within a second of each other; much to quickly to be accounted for by one man with a bolt action rifle.

    1. However, the fact Kellerman only heard a total of three shots does not, as I inferred earlier, rule out additional shots from rifles equipped with suppressors.

  9. PS: Kellerman’s ‘Theory’ on the so-called ‘Flurry’. You will see/read/understand what Kellerman was referring to when he made his ‘flurry’ comment. From his own testimony before the WC he was simply stating that he learned LATER that each body had ‘x’ number of wounds…so he was, in effect, trying to articulate his theory that there must have been a flurry (but he only hear 3! 1. The Firecracker shot. 2. The back/neck shot. 3. The fatal shot to the head. He only uses the word FLURRY to describe what he thought. PERIOD!!!!!

    All this from a man who thought he was in an open field..with no crowd…and no crowd reaction. All while hearing JFK say he was HIT…and all while communicating with Lawson, Greer, et-al.

    Oh brother…Where art thou?!!

    Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen.
    Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say?
    Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?
    Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.
    Representative FORD. Is that why you have described–
    Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry.
    Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry?
    Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. Excuse me, do you have any independent recollection, Mr. Kellerman, of the number of shots, aside from the inference that you make as to how many points of wounds there were?
    Mr. KELLERMAN. Could you rephrase that, please?
    Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying that there were four wounds for the President and three wounds for the Governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three shots in your opinion or your view. But my question is: Do you have any current recollection of having heard more than three shots?
    Mr. KELLERMAN. No. I don’t. I will have to say “No.”
    Senator COOPER. Has that been your recollection from the very time of the shooting?
    Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; it has been my opinion.
    Senator COOPER. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you think then that you heard only three shots, or did you–
    Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.
    Senator COOPER. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three?
    Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I can’t say that, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. Now, you referred to four wounds, Mr. Kellerman, realizing, of course, your characterization is only lay opinion.
    Mr. KELLERMAN. Very true.
    Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us which wounds you made reference to by that statement, please?
    Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. Can I keep the train going from the time we got to the hospital?
    Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; do it in your own way just as you please.

    1. Maybe Kellerman was smart enough to figure out some of the shots came from rifles equipped with suppressors.

      1. Again….Robert (so exasperating). “Maybe Kellerman was smart enough to figure out some of the shots came from rifles equipped with suppressors”.

        Mr. Kellerman OPENLY STATED that he made his flurry comment ON HIS view of the number of wounds on the MEN. He stated that he heard ONLY the ‘fire-cracker’ sound and the following 2 shots. He stated that the flurry comment was due to his viewing of the wounds suffered by JFK and Connally.
        Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.
        Representative FORD. Is that why you have described–
        Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry.
        Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry?
        Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.”

        Period. So we have a guy who is sitting right inside the LIMO who is unwilling to accept his LACKLUSTER PERFORMANCE lent itself to this event occurring.

        Man….you guys want everything….lol….

        1 guy. 6th Floor, 3 shots. And not a shred of proof otherwise.

        1. “1 guy. 6th Floor, 3 shots. And not a shred of proof otherwise.”~Bill

          To the contrary, there is not a shred of proof that Oswald was on the 6th floor when shots rang out in Dealey Plaza.
          There is no chain of possession for any of the bullets said to be fired from that location.

          Furthermore it was not Kellerman’s “LACKLUSTER PERFORMANCE” that lent itself to this event occurring; it was the complete disregard for Secret Service official Protocol, by the top of the chain of SS command, not those who were led into the crossfire by those setting up the assassination.

          Further there were more shots than three, the dictabelt picked up at least five.

          1. Oswald was last seen on this floor. Fibers from Oswald’s shirt were found on the gun. A hole was witnessed in Oswald’s shirt at the place where the butt off the rifle would contact that shirt sleeve (Oswald’s original landlady saw him get on the bus after leaving the Depository). Rifle shells matched to the rifle, Rifle, PO Box, all in A Hidell’s name, Marina also mentioned the A. Hidell Alias…

            Right….not one shred of evidence. Sure.

            PS…the recording of the shooting is nonsense and proven to be so already.

            Amazing. Simply amazing.

          2. “Oswald was last seen on this floor.”~Bill

            Oswald was last seen on the 2nd floor lunchroom of the TBDB, by Truly and officer Baker.

            Evidence was indeed planted. There were no palm prints the first time the rifle was dusted for prints. The were then found after Oswald was dead.

            The Hidell ID came from the wallet found at the Tippit murder scene, it was a plant. Marina’s testimony under duress cannot be trusted.
            The chain evidence of the rifle is suspect for many reasons already gone over on this site.
            The bullet casings in the staged “snipers nest” have no chain of possession.
            The Magic Bullet has a proven broken chain of evidence.
            The dictabelt recording was proven by experts who do impulse diagnosis for the Navy for sonar, using the same algorithms for noise removal as for sonar on subs and ships.
            The sonic signature for rifle fire is unique and was found on the impulses on the dictabelt. The reflection environment of Dealey Plaza was recorded using rifle fire to record the reflections as well as firing positions of the rifles.
            The shots match the hits in the Z-film precisely.
            There were at least five shots, and perhaps others further from the mic that picked up the impulses.

          3. Actually Bill, Oswald was last seen in the lunchroom downstairs and not a single witness could ID him as being in the sixth floor window. Not to mention more than one witness saw two men in that window shortly before the motorcade arrived.

          4. As for the Oswald’s alleged shirt fibers, the FBI were hardly conclusive on this, saying “These fibers could have originated from this shirt.” – hardly conclusive beyond reasonable doubt.

            FBI hair and fiber expert, Paul Stombaugh, told the Warren Commission that, “there is just no way at this time to be able to positively state that a particular small group of fibers came from a particular source”

            A report from the FBI Laboratory that linked fibers in Oswald’s shirt to fibers recovered from the rifle recovered from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, reminded “that fibers do not exhibit sufficient individual microscopic characteristics to be positively identified as originating from a particular source to the exclusion of all others.”

          5. “The National Academy of Science has COMPLETELY DEMOLISHED any link between the Dictabelt and the shooting of JFK.”~Bill

            Yes Bill, I am familiar with this politically motivated junk science.
            We have been through this all before on other threads here.

        2. Bill…you say “One guy, 6th floor, 3 shots”, but you don’t say the one guy was Oswald. Why is that?

  10. Comical. Kellerman and Greer. First: Kellerman’s story, if you remove the narration about it, takes more time to say than practically the entire assassination sequence! Kellerman is apparently in the same ‘fog of war’ as Clint Hill about the sequence of events. Agent Hill has consistently placed himself ever-closer to the Limo at the time of the headshot. Factually however, he was only at the right front wheel of the Queen Mary.

    The actions of Kellerman, as shown in the Zapruder Film are not consistent with the reality of what he did at all. I know CT’ers will seize on his story…but it is really just that. A story.

    Double Bang-bang? Right Mr. Kellerman. The second part of that Bang-bang was most likely the fragments of bullets that were ricochetting all over the inside of the car during the head shot.

    Just Agents re-writing history due to their own reactions.

    1. Bill,

      Kellerman’s testimony was given to Specter at the Warren Commission Hearings. This was in 1964, not years later as Hill’s ever changing story goes.

      If you won’t accept the word of witnesses actually in the car, both of the Connally’s and Agent Kellerman, what exactly is it you will accept? Your own biased opinion?

      1. Willy, that makes me wonder if the WC “omitted” Kellerman’s saying “there have got to be more than 3 shots, gentleman”. He’s right there in the car-how much closer can you be than that?

    2. He also claimed that JFK yelled ” My God, I am hit!” whenit was physically impossible for JFK to say anything after the throat wound.
      He was too old, too slow and too unresponsive to be driving the limo. After the first shot he should have accelerated out of the line of fire, certainly after the second shot. Instead he froze and slowed down,giving Oswald an easy head shot. Jackie felt that he could have prevented JFK’s death. As the back shot would have been fatal anyway she probably was wrong, but his incompetence made the head shot certain.
      Fortunately, after the assassination the misguided seniority assignments were ended.

      1. Photon

        Tell me why you believe the shot that hit JFK’s back would have been fatal. Not that I am disagreeing with you; I’d just like to hear your thoughts on this matter.

        As for doubting that Kellerman heard JFK say “My God, I am hit”, I tend to believe JFK did not have a throat wound at this point, contrary to popular belief, and that, despite evidence of a pneumothorax, JFK would still be capable of speech. Anyone doubting this, need only remember that Connally also had a pneumothorax, and supposedly said “My God! They’re going to kill us all!” AFTER he was shot in the chest.

        Nellie Connally was looking right at JFK as he raised his clenched fists to shoulder level, and she would have had a good look at his light coloured (almost white?) shirt front, for the simple fact he was not clutching his throat; also contrary to popular belief. She distinctly stated that she saw no blood on JFK at this time. Considering it is believed the bullet went through the tie knot and collar, and that this diagram:

        literally shows there to be a forest of blood vessels in this area, it is inconceivable that a bullet penetrating his neck at this point would not cause instantaneous bleeding that would be more than visible as a large red stain on JFK’s white shirt front.

        1. JFK never had a pneumothorax. Why you persist in this is beyond me. There was no radiographic or physical evidence of a ptx at Parkland. There was no radiographically evidence at autopsy, despite being bagged and positively ventilated for 10-15 minutes. The chest tubes placed at Parkland never even penetrated the pleural space.Do you know that at many US trauma centers chest tubes are placed prophylactically for suspected chest trauma, without a ptx ever being diagnosed?
          A round transiting the neck could well have hit prominent veins, but the gusher of blood that you expect would never have happened through the small exit wound in the throat. Even if you hit the carotid when attempting to place an IJ catheter you usually don’t have significant bleeding- even subcutaneously. However, if there was a connection to the trachea ( as seen with the findings on JFK leading to his tracheostomy ) you could have expected a cloud of blood fro JFK’s throat every time he exhaled. But there was no blood on the anterior shirt or jacket of JFK. There is no aerosolized cloud of blood seen in the Zapruder film. The reason is that JFK never took another breath after he was hit by the round that transitted his neck. He had respiratory paralysis and would have suffocated on the way to Parkland. The shock wave of the round through the neck caused phrenic nerve paralysis in addition to functionally making him a quad.

          1. In the video “JFK Assassination” The Case of Murder by Death, at 35:15… Dr John K Lattimer of the Columbia Medical School does claim that the shot thru the back cut Kennedy’s thoracic nerve. The nerve to the diaphragm. And probably would have proved fatal without immediate assistance from a ventilator.

          2. Photon

            Must I go through all of the evidence again, just for you? Here, read Dr. Marion T. Jenkins’ WC testimony. He describes the obvious signs of pneumothorax in JFK, and how a chest tube was put into JFK’s RIGHT chest ONLY, and connected to drainage.

          3. His testimony says nothing about what the ” obvious evidence” was.
            No pneumothorax on autopsy, no pneumothorax, period.
            No chest tube in the pleural cavity, no resolution of a ptx if present,period.
            End of story.

          4. Bob, what would be ” the obvious evidence ” of a pneumothorax in an unconscious individual who was not breathing?
            He also thought JFK had a left temporal wound-so does that mean he had to have had one?
            Tell me how you have come to this conclusion of JFK having a pneumothorax when no other medical professional has?

      2. Photon – do you realize that William Greer (the driver of JFK’s car) and Roy Kellerman (in the front seat beside Greer) are two different people. You imply that Kellerman was driving (“too old, slow, unresponsive”) and was the agent who heard JFK’s voice – if you continue with these comments and your back wound declarations – you will have lost any credibility you might have had.

        I suggest you get your facts straight before you babble on about Kellerman being Greer or JFK’s back wound being “fatal” – you like to respond to others with prove it – name one doctor at Parkland or Bethesda who stated that JFK’s back wound would have been fatal.

        1. Your right Joe, Kellerman was not driving-my bad.
          But Greer was-and everything that I said about the driver applies to him.
          In point of fact both agents in the limo on Nov. 22, 1963 were too old and slow to react to any emergency. It was the culture of those with seniority got the assignments closest to the President.
          Now for YOUR credibility. How can I name one Parkland doctor who stated that the back wound was fatal when not a single one of the physicians who attended to him even knew that he had a back wound?
          Actually as I recall the JAMA article that highlighted Humes’ and Boswell’s comments decades later stated that they felt it was a fatal wound.

          1. Photon

            I have never seen these comments by Humes and Boswell. Could you please elaborate a little on them, or post a link?


            Aren’t you going against the WC grain by openly stating JFK’s back wound was potentially fatal? Just don’t want to see you get kicked off the team or anything.

          2. It’s not in the May 27, 1992 JAMA article but I seem to remember a comment from one of them later-perhaps in the Oct 1992 f/u article.
            At any rate with JFK’s history of adrenal insufficiency he never would have survived the spinal trauma even if he made it to Parkland after 8 minutes of anoxia. He nearly died after elective spine surgery in the 1950s principally because of his inability to handle the stress of surgery secondary to the steroid requirement-and to the increased susceptiblity to infection which led to osteomyelitis.

        2. Juneau

          Actually, there is ample evidence showing JFK’s back wound was far more serious than we have been led to believe. If you’re interested, I will share the information with you.

          I’m just a little shocked that Photon would let something like this slip. Perhaps it’s time he looked at retirement?

          1. That’s a very interesting comment Paul. One which hadn’t occurred to me before. Can I ask why you think that?

            And if JFK did say that why didn’t anyone else hear him speak (particularly Jackie)?

            Thanks for your views.

        3. Juneau: What are you talking about. You wrote to Photon that he needed to be careful or lose his credibility.

          Your note appears to say that Photon was incorrect when he said it was Kellerman’s voice reporting that JFK said, ‘My God. I am hit’.

          You are aware that it WAS KELLERMAN who reported this event.

          Enough on credibility…PLEASE. All Photon did was err on on two OLD MEN caught in a very difficult position.

          Yet you, Sir, took him to task (gleefully I may add) on an event that he correctly reported as to reporting that Kellerman said he had voice confirmation of JFK receiving a bullet.



          1. Bill – Photon admitted that he used the word “He” incorrectly. He morphed Kellerman and Greer into the same person. It is not a slight mistake for any serious student of the JFK case to not know that Kellerman was the one who heard the flurry of shots while riding in the front seat while Greer was the driver.

            I never said a word about Kellerman regarding the “I am hit” statement”. I did not address it and I’m not sure about its accuracy. But it is possible it was a reaction by JFK to his back wound before he was hit in the throat

            Relax Bill – Photon is pretty good at probing the mistakes of others – he admitted his in this instance and went on to post a response that stated they were both “old and unresponsive” and I don’t totally disagree with that assessment. Greer was 54 and Kellerman 48.

            I personally believe that Greer briefly hit the brakes after a bullet hit the windshield and he swerved to the left as numerous witnesses (including Roy Truly) have stated. When viewing the extant Zapruder film – one can see ALL the occupants of the car move forward together – I believe that is a sign of the brakes being applied. Both Greer and Kellerman come close to hitting the windshield with their faces in those frames.

      3. Proton GREER WAS A true blood Ornage man who as his son said hated KENNEDY and for once your right, that was reason why he was the driving that day.

        1. There had been three drivers in the presidential detail, but one had a heart attack shortly before 11/22. Which left two.

    3. Bill

      There were simply too many witnesses who heard three shots, and heard the last two of these shots as almost instantaneous, to allow anyone to entertain the notion that there were NOT two shots less than a second apart.

      Are you saying, then, that there were only two shots?


      As I said to Jean, if you believe the sound of bullet fragments hitting a window frame is the same sound made by a rifle’s muzzle blast, you obviously have not spent a great deal of time around rifles.

      1. Bob. Apparently you’re writing with that very wide brush again. You are aware, I’m sure. That Dealey Plaza is a ‘mirror image’ on both sides of the street(s) in question. And you are aware, I’m sure, that the further down the road the Limo traveled the more ‘squeezed’ the sound reverberating back off the walls of the plaza itself, and the other buildings and surfaces would echo back.

        Next time in Dallas, I suppose you’ve been there…Stand and clap your hands very loudly from different locations. You’ll notice the effect very clearly. At least you should note it if you have a open mind. I doubt the latter…but it is just a simple fact of physics and sounds.

        I almost want to remind the readers that there was a tunnel/overpass just ahead of the vehicle. Do ya think that may have contributed to the sound???

        If in Dallas light off a firecracker under the underpass. Walk east up the plaza and light a another…then another.

        The sounds will seem like they are simultaneous. :).

        PS. You have no idea of the riles I’ve been around…nor does it make a bit of difference.


        1. Okay, Bill, so, if you’re saying all the shots originated from the same place, and each had an echo, why did witnesses not hear six shots, then?

          Or, if the final, rapid BANG-BANG was a shot and its echo, does that mean Oswald only fired two shots?

          Or, better yet, if each shot had an echo, and three shots were heard, does that mean Oswald only fired one and one-half shots?

          Please, don’t insult our intelligence with this “echo” business. It is almost as silly as your “sound of bullet fragments hitting glass sounds like a muzzle blast” line of reasoning.

          1. Sorry Bob. I am reminded of President Reagan saying…”Now there you go again”.

            I am not saying anything of the sort about the echoes. All all. I am saying that, DEPENDING WHERE YOU WERE ON ELM STREET, your PERCEPTION of the number of shots ARE ALTERED BY ECHOES. Since you’ve not done the experiment…butt out. I have.

            You’re the ‘supersonic blast master’ around here…lol. You know that, in order for an echo to reflect back to the source it must ‘bounce’ off an object that reflects the sound waves back to the source. In the case of a moving target, it is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that the occupants of the car, and or those further away from the Depository would have heard the reports of the gun and the echoes of those reports as they reverberated off of things like: Oh…the overpass with it’s steel infrastructure, the concrete that held up the entire superstructure of the overpass, etc.

            An echo DOES NOT HAVE to come back to those who are/were standing on Elm Street Mr. Wizard. The corners of buildings, barriers along the way, even the Motorcade itself while moving through the Plaza creates unique structures that would block sound.

            And speaking of sound, I suppose you have seen the Nellie Connally interview with Larry King, where she talks about the amount of noise that was flooding into the car from sirens, motorcycles, etc.

            PS…..I never said the sound of bullet fragments hitting glass was like the sound of a muzzle blast. Try not to be an idot. Why you write that I did is not surprising. You tend to create as you expand your nonsensical views and I find it amusing that you do this so often.

            Here is an ‘nit-wit’ proof example that you can now ponder:

            1. Suppose that Elm Street, on November 22nd, 1963, was an “L” shaped street…with building on both sides.

            2. Suppose that there were ‘witnesses’ standing on both “halves” of Elm Street. ( This part ( a. l ) and this part (b. _ ). Got it.

            3. Suppose that Kennedy’s Limo was fired upon as it traveled down the first part ( a. l ).

            Everyone who heard that shot would swear that there was more than one shot because the sound would be reverberated back, and possible more than one time. All those ‘witnesses’, DEPENDING ON WHERE THEY WERE STANDING, would have sworn there was more than one shot..and it came from another place than where our ‘assassin’ was positioned.

            However…Those people who were standing along our parade route in the b. position, simply because of the layout of the street and objects that could reflect sound waves, would have no clue of the shooting sequence.

            Yet, if a shot was fired as the limo neared the lower part of the ‘b’ position, and knowing that there was a structure made of metal and concrete nearby, then they would also feel that shots were originating from different positions.

            The human mind can play tricks on people going through stressful situations. Hill moves his actions closer to the action to reach the limo just as JFK is hit ( No, sadly Mr. Hill, you were nowhere near it), Kellerman hearing JFK speak (Nyet…never happened). All the way down to the stupid supersonic, hypersonic, nonsensical mystery bullet and the other schmeckle you post about.

            I know that you will not walk through the Plaza and perform a single sound test…(and that’s ok Bobby). But, please…put away the artist’s brush.

            Peace out.

  11. there are quite a few witness who said they heard two shots, one right after the other, proving more than one shooter – this is not even in doubt, unless half of Dealey Plaza was hallucinating. Or ask Connally (too late now so read his repeated testimony).

    so, LN’ers, deal with it…..

    1. Josiah Thompson’s list of witnesses included 16 Secret Service men in the motorcade, among whom only Kellerman reported “3+,” with the others reporting either 3 or 2 shots.

      Clint Hill, who said he heard two, said: “The second one had almost a double sound–as though you were standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear both the sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the metal place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface of the head. But I am not sure that that is what caused it.”

      Fragments also hit the windshield and the metal frame above it.

      1. Jean

        If you think bullet fragments hitting the frame of a windshield will make the same noise as the muzzle blast of a rifle, it is clear you have not spent much time around rifles.

        1. “If you think bullet fragments hitting the frame of a windshield will make the same noise as the muzzle blast of a rifle, it is clear you have not spent much time around rifles”

          That’s not what I said, Bob. I was responding to Hill’s statement, “The second one had almost a double sound–as though you were standing against something *metal* and firing into it, and you hear both the sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the *metal* place…” A fragment did hit a metal place.

          1. Good for Clint Hill. Most witnesses heard the last two shots as distinct shots, yet right on top of each other. BANG-BANG!! Faster than a bolt action rifle can be cycled.

  12. Speaking of firing people, these two should have been fired. That’s to say nothing of other people in the Secret Service, CIA, FBI, and Dallas police, all of whom failed miserably to protect the president.

    Here’s what gets me. As soon as Kellerman heard the first shot (which missed) he should have gone nuts, grabbing Greer’s shoulder and pointing or showing some emotion and screaming, “Step on it!” Instead they waited for a second shot and Kellerman allegedly told Greer to get away (apparently in a calm manner, I don’t see him moving much in the Zapruder film) but instead Greer stopped the car and turned around, enabling a final kill shot!

    I’m mainly going by memory here, but Kellerman explained this odd behavior by Greer by saying something like, “I guess he didn’t believe me.” How incredibly lame.

    Kellerman did not display a sense of urgency after 2 shots were already fired and yet many people in the motorcade recognized the sounds as shots almost immediately.

    I’m also confident that just about everyone reading this post would have done something more useful by gut instinct alone or just plain common sense, like speeding up or swerving.

    I am assuming (of course) incompetence in my statements, although there are perhaps more sinister theories. My theory is that many of the above people allowed the safeguards to be removed so that Oswald (who the CIA and others knew about) would get a chance.

    1. Something that has stuck with me that made sense as far as Greer slowing and/or stopping the limo. Greer and Kellerman’s perception of bullets coming from the front as well as the rear. Greer was hesitant to continue forward as he seen a number of people on the overpass and felt one or more of them could have been shooters. I could easily see this being a part of Greer’s thought process and a reason to hesitate.

  13. Thanks for posting this Mr, Bradford. I have a feeling your work with this site may often go unappreciated by many readers.
    Kellermans statement is one of the biggest to be ignored by the WC. He didn’t change his story for them, he emphasized it with the “had to be more than three shooters” follow up. “Flurry” came from a experienced SSA in the car. To answer the first poster on this thread, to me a flurry means multiple shots from different directions too close together to have been fired by one shooter.
    To ignore his statement kind of sums up the selected ignorance of the WC.

    1. I agree, it does sum up the WC’s work, but it would be nicer if they had more to go on, instead of what the FBI did(by holding back some of the facts). Having said that, guys like Specter and Belin really went after most of the witnesses, knowing they(the witnesses)had no legal representation present. Their goal was “Prove LHO did it”, not “Find the truth”.

  14. When Kellerman referred to the bullets as a “flurry”, I believe he was describing his observation that the last two shots were very close together.

    From Kellerman’s WC testimony:

    “Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, “Let’s get out of here; we are hit,” and grabbed the mike and I said, “Lawson, this is Kellerman,”–this is Lawson, who is in the front car. “We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately.” Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat.”

    This, of course, gives the reader the impression there were quite a number of bullets coming into the limo; more than two, anyways. However, further on in his testimony, we find this:

    “Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker?
    Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together.
    Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard?
    Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang–bang, bang.
    Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?
    Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.”

  15. Not only did Roy Kellerman tell the Warren Commission there was a “flurry of shots” but he also went on to say “that there had to be more than three shots gentlemen.”

  16. It’s inconceivable to me that all shots that made up the “flurry”(as Kellerman describes), came from the TSBD.

  17. There are only two shots into the car I am totally convinced of. One came from somehere and damaged Kennedy’s throat (and may have injured Connally but its doubtful, and may have caused Kennedy’s rear back/neck wound, again doubtful).

    One came from the front and caused the large exit wound at the back of Kennedy’s head. What is seen on the Zapruder film is entirely suspect, it doesn’t match the preponderence of testimony and it doesn’t adhere to Newton’s law of motion.

    1. “What is seen on the Zapruder film is entirely suspect, it doesn’t match the preponderence of testimony and it doesn’t adhere to Newton’s law of motion.”~Eddy

      You say a preponderance of testimony. No, to be precise, it doesn’t match a portion of the conflicting testimony.

      Now What exactly is in the Zapruder film that “doesn’t adhere to Newton’s law of motion.”?

  18. Open to interpretation. Jefferson would you like me to call in the LN Brigade ? I can make some emails inviting them.

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