I don’t know who Patrick Harris or what his Ph.D. is in. Has anybody read his book about Medical Evidence in JFK’s Death?
From the promotional page.
“See No Evil: The Seven Big Lies of the Medical Evidence and the Shot That Killed the President” (published by Xlibris) documents seven obvious and outrageous lies manufactured by federal insiders from 1963 through 1979 to disguise the fact that President Kennedy was hit by more than two bullets.”
via New Book Discusses Myths Concerning Medical Evidence in JFK’s Death.
Just a comment on books about the assassination in general. I’m glad to see new ones still coming. I wondered if things would die down after the 50th, then the 51st. I’ve read that several new books are out or coming out.
I recently read Richard Charnin’s Reclaiming Science. Informative and interesting for a non scientist/math person. Also interesting for a unexpected reason, the statements and/or testimony of all 60 of the witnesses to the stop/slowdown mentioned in Survivor’s Guilt.
I don’t know what to think based on the glowing reviews on amazon of Assassination Rehearsal by Nick Nero.
I forget from who and where I read it but something new is coming on Ferrie that sounded interesting.
Seems like something was coming from one of the most respected researchers like Scott or McKnight.
AND, I read on here a few months back that Jeff was working on a new book.
“Also interesting for a unexpected reason, the statements and/or testimony of all 60 of the witnesses to the stop/slowdown mentioned in Survivor’s Guilt.”~Ronnie Wayne
I have studied this list by Palamara and found it to be very sloppy and inclusive of testimonies from those who haven’t the proper POV to make the definitive statements that Palamara asserts that they are. He also includes statements that are made to journalists that are retracted in official testimonies, and are contradicted by other witnesses in better position to see the actual event.
Personally I find Palamara to be lustful for notoriety, just like “researchers” such as David Lifton, who has some very scurrilous arguments in defense of what I deem to be a fantastical tale.
One example to this follows:
“When testifying before the ARRB, Humes was asked: when did you first see the body? His answer: 6: 45 pm.”~Lifton
Here’s the exact quote, from the ARRB transcript:
Q: Dr. Humes, when did you first see the body of President Kennedy?:
A: “I didn’t look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o’clock, something like that, (pause) approximately.”
So Lifton claims that his answer was, ” 6: 45 pm.” This is scurrilous supposition; Humes states clearly that he did not look at his watch, he did NOT know the time, he could only guess. But Lifton, as in much of his argumentation adds a certainty where there is none.
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Willy, you seem to be an individual not willing to accept many of the fantasies promoted by the CT camp, yet you seem to have swallowed the Sherry Fiester nonsense, even to the point of ignoring what the splatter pattern in the Zapruder film actually demonstrates.
Why?
Photon,
We have already been through your unfounded assertions of “Sherry (as) Fiester nonsense”
The blood spatter analysis she gives is in fact indicative of a shot from the front.
That my discernment is more pointed than that of some of the others here is merely due to my staying up to date on forensic science.
I am not going to go round and round on your ludicrous carousel with you Photon. You have not addressed these issues concerning Feister at all. You simply repeat the nonsense you have already said, and ignore my rebuttals.
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Photon, your blood-spatter statements are a little off. You say the SS motorcyclists drove right into the spatter because it went straight up into the air. Couldn’t they have driven through it if it went in a backward direction also? Remember, Clint Hill said he saw the blood spatter come out of the back of JFK’s head. Did that blood suddenly reverse course in midair and go straight up????? This “Magic Blood Theory” of yours doesn’t work.
The “limo stop” question recently re-emerged on the Education Forum. We have been through this now dozens of times, and it’s quite clear the witnesses cited by Palamara and others suggest a limo slow down, and not a full stop. Those holding otherwise inevitably use witnesses from the back of the motorcade saying the motorcade stopped to suggest the limo stopped. It slowed down, but did not stop.
“Those holding otherwise inevitably use witnesses from the back of the motorcade saying the motorcade stopped to suggest the limo stopped. It slowed down, but did not stop.”~Pat Speer
Exactly Pat, the critical point rests on POV. The limo clearly slows down in all the films as well, but it did not stop.
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My side of this is that the limo went at such a slow speed that the motorcycle cops had to put their foot on the road since they would lose their balance otherwise as demonstrated in the Nix film.
Agents Greer and Kellerman have a lot to answer for!
As Pat already clearly indicated, this has been discussed numerous times, and conspiracy deniers like Photon and John McAdams keep on rehashing matters like this, or the rifle, or the shells or Oswald etc etc, when it has been proven many times that there was a conspiracy to murder JFK.
MOVE ON!
First, Thanks to Vince Palamara for the most definitive work on the Secret Service and JFK’s Assassination.
After reviewing a little info I’d say there is a consensus among the statements of the 60 witnesses that the car slowed down from it’s 11 mph after the first shot. Some said it stopped. Palamara has comments from 17 of the 60 in his book. The other 43 only support this conclusion. If you eliminate those beyond the follow up car it’s still overwhelming, the limo slowed a good bit below it’s 11 mph where it should have been going much faster in the first place.
A commenter on the thread Pat mentions on the EDU Forum points out the limo was limited by the lead car in front. Trouble is I don’t remember them being that close in the Z film, and, there was plenty of room to hit the gas AFTER the head shot
BTW, of the four motorcycle cops flanking JFK’s limo 2 said slowed to almost a stop, 2 said it stopped.
“2 said slowed to almost a stop, 2 said it stopped.”~Ronnie Wayne
Which two said it stopped? Was that their last word on the matter?
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Most readers/ researchers are familiar with DPD motorcycle cop Bobby Hargis riding on JFK’s left rear being splattered with blood and grey matter.
Per Richard Charnin’s book he said “immediately before the head shot] the Presidential car slowed down. … ‘I felt blood hit me in the face and the Presidential car stopped almost immediately after that”.
DPD James Chaney “(one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)”. … from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped.”
DPD B. J. Martin (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) “saw JFK’s car stop “just for a moment””.
DPD Douglas L Jackson (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) ” all but stopped, just a moment.”
Bonus: Texas Highway Patrolman Joe Henry Rich (drove LBJ’s car) … “the motorcade came to a stop momentarily.”
“Trouble is I don’t remember them being that close in the Z film, and, there was plenty of room to hit the gas AFTER the head shot”~Ronnie Wayne
I agree that the lead car was farther away, and that the limo was certainly going to slow at the point when the head shot occurred. My interpretation, which doesn’t let Greer off the hook for travelling so slowly at that point; is that Greer looked back and saw Hill attempting to board the car, and only hit the gas after Hill had a hand on the grip (where it should have been for the entire route!)
It is clear that the limousine didn’t come to a stop, all the films that show that sequence are in agreement.
There was a stop right at the entrance ramp of the Stemmons Freeway. This is far beyond the plaza, and cannot be confused with a stop during the assassination.
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Mr. Whitten:
My book was published in January, 1981—and then 3 more times: 1982, 1988 and 1993. The ARRB ceased to exist on 9/30/1998.
So when you quote me, it would be nice if you specified the venue, because surely it could not have been from my book. Its possible that you found an email exchange on a public discussion board in which I quoted Humes as saying 6:45 p.m. (and omitted “or 7 o’clock”) but. . . in the final analysis, “so what”?
The point you are missing is that according to Warren Commission’s testimony, the naval autopsy did not begin until 7:35 p.m. According to the official records of the tri-service casket team, the President’s body was not brought to the morgue until 8 p.m.
Do you understand the significance of that time anomaly sir?
If Humes saw “the body” that early—be it “6:45” or “7 p.m.” (i.e., if the body was already inside the Bethesda morgue at that time)—then the casket in the naval ambulance must have been empty.
Let’s go through this once again:
It is in fact of great importance that, at the time of his ARRB Deposition, and when Humes was pointedly asked “When did you first see the body. . . “? His answer was “6:45 or 7 o’clock.”
Do you not understand that, according to the Warren Report, at 6:45 p.m., President Kennedy’s body was (supposedly) inside the large bronze casket which was in the naval ambulance containing Jacqueline and Robert Kennedy, an ambulance that was then en route to Bethesda Naval Hospital?
Do you not understand the naval ambulance arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital at 6:53 (according to William Grigg, of the Washington Star, who was “on site”) or 6:55 p.m. (according to Secret Service reports)?
Moreover, please do keep in mind that upon arrival at Bethesda, Jackie and Bobby emerged from the naval ambulance, entered Bethesda, and went up to the 17th floor.
At that point in time, the body was (supposedly) still inside the coffin which was inside that naval ambulance; and that ambulance was parked at the front entrance of Bethesda Naval Hospital—and remained there for at least another 12 minutes (per the Washington Star).
So . . .: what does it matter whether Humes “first saw” the body at 6:45 p.m. or 7 p.m.? The only way he could have seen the body “that early” –i.e., at either of those two times–was if the body had already arrived and was inside the morgue PRIOR TO the arrival of the naval ambulance at the Bethesda front entrance.
So that was the point, sir.
And, based on my conversations with Doug Horne at the time of the 1996 Humes deposition (and he attended the deposition of Humes, and in fact designed the questions asked by Jeremy Gunn), Gunn knew all of that when he was questioning Humes, and that’s why he phrased the question the way he did: “What time did you first see the body?”
The implication of Humes’ answer –whether it was 6:45 or 7 p.m.—is clear: the body was in the morgue BEFORE the arrival of the naval ambulance at the Bethesda front entrance.
Indeed, according to the report of Sgt. Roger Boyajian, the NCOIC of the Marine Security Detail—a report obtained and now available at NARA—the body arrived at 6:35 p.m., a good 20 minutes prior to the arrival of the naval ambulance. That is supported by the account of Dennis David, as first told to me in July, 1979, and published in chapter 25 of Best Evidence. It is also supported by Navy man Donald Rebentish, as related to me in January 1981, when Best Evidence was first published (See Afterword of 1982 edition of B.E., and all editions that followed).
So your emphasis is entirely misplaced, Mr. Whitten.
The issue is not whether Humes saw the body at 6:45 or 7 p.m. (or whether I omitted “7 p.m.” on some Internet discussion board). The point is that if Humes saw “the body” at either of those times—6:45 p.m. or 7 p.m.—then the coffin in the naval ambulance—a coffin offloaded from Air Force One at Andrews Air Force Base–was empty.
David S.Lifton
3/15/15; 4:30 a.m. PDT
Los Angeles, California
Thank you for your reply Mr. Lifton,
These are in FACT the terms used:
Q: Dr. Humes, when did you first see the body of President Kennedy?:
A: “I didn’t look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o’clock, something like that, (pause) approximately.”
Do you agree to that? You surely do because you have cited them verbatim yourself.
It is clear that Humes is making a “guess”, he was not wearing a watch. Therefore it is plainly an estimation and conjecture, which by any rational assessment cannot be held as an exact statement of fact.
He may very well have been mistaken Mr. Lifton.
You may very well be mistaken in taking at face value a time that was only a guess on the part of the one testifying.
I in fact do know the convoluted story that you have pieced together around this guess. I have read your book. In fact we met the day I bought that book, which was in a bookstore in Southern California. You were there at the same time Jim Marrs. I bought his book Crossfire at the same encounter that I bought Best Evidence.
At any rate. I once accepted your theories as plausible. I now disagree in the main that Kennedy’s body was ‘stolen’, or ‘misplaced’, or ‘physically altered’ before the autopsy.
Willy Whitten, \\][//
Although I do not agree with every conclusion, I do not find Mr. Lifton’s findings as “convoluted”. I have read the book four times; and each time something new and plausible jumps out. For me the book took the assassination research in a new and positive direction. The original researchers did a great job, but Mr. Lifton’s work took to a higher level.
January 1978, two HSCA counsels, D. Andy Purdy and Mark Flanagan, contacted Burkley. Their purpose was to extract an affidavit saying that that no one could have intercepted JFK’s body before it got to the morgue, and that JFK’s wounds had not been altered between Dallas and the post mortem.[379] Dutifully, Burkley wrote up an affidavit, declaring that, “[he, Burkley, had remained] in the ambulance with the President’s body in the casket and also on the plane; the casket was neither opened or disturbed in any way.” And also that, “There was no difference in the nature of the wounds” seen in Dallas compared to those seen in the morgue.”[380]
But Burkley was also convinced there was a conspiracy:
In early 1977, Burkley’s attorney, William F. Illig, contacted HSCA counsel Richard A. Sprague. Sprague’s needlessly suppressed memo recounts that Burkley wanted to get some information to the Select Committee. Namely, as Sprague put it, that “although he, Burkley, had signed the death certificate of President Kennedy in Dallas, he had never been interviewed and that he has information in the Kennedy assassination indicating that others besides Oswald must have participated.”[378] Given Burkley’s central vantage point, this was a hot investigative prospect if there ever was one. The staff of the HSCA wasn’t interested. But it did more than just ignore the lead. It shielded its own forensic consultants from the existence of this contact.
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From the Amazon web site:
“The President was already dead when he was struck by the third shot, the so-called “head shot”, which likely came from behind the fence overlooking the grassy knoll.”
http://www.amazon.com/See-No-Evil-Evidence-President-ebook/dp/B00PLCNU40/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1422299985&sr=1-6
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That is not true. People on both sides would dispute its veracity.
Back when I was a regular in the Usenet forum appropriated by prof. McAdams, before he banned me for reasons to which he is the only person privy, a fellow poster, well informed and read informed us:
“Kennedy was breathing when he arrived to Parkland”.
OTOH, the official time of death was delayed in order to wait for the 2 priests who administered the last rites.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/could-jfk-have-received-last-rites-if-he-was-already-dead
http://thefederalist.com/2013/11/21/hes-dead-right-father-oscar-l-huber-kennedy-assassination-news-leak-controversy/
Incidentally: This was the 3rd. occasion that John Kennedy received such sacrament, in his lifetime.
It is highly unlikely that JFK was breathing when he reached Parkland; there is some mention of agonal breathing but the fact that they intubated him emergently and ventilated him suggests that he had no effective respiration. He was DOA. More than likely the neck wound created a shock wave that disrupted phrenic nerve activity- he may have had some accessory muscles of respiration activity but I doubt it. That is why the neck wound was probably ultimately fatal-he would have suffocated on the way to Parkland had there been no head shot.
[Photon:] “He was DOA.”
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Dr. McClelland says otherwise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p40LqmK5sBw
Minute 17.
“‘Mac, you can stop now: he is gone’ He had just flatlined on the electrocardiac monitor”
Incidentally: it is amazing how what was originally a pencil drawing by Ida Dox magically became a color photograph, with the back of the head intact.
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=45638
[Minute 16:26 in the video above]
I get a different conclusion to those of Kennedy63. By using the Audio/Video Sync of the Z-film and dictabelt audio. As follows:
5 shots:
shot 1. a miss,
shot 2. JFK throat hit (frontal shot),
shot 3. Kennedy hit in back (shot from rear) ,
shot 4. Connally hit in the back (shot from rear),
shot 5. Kennedy head-shot (frontal shot).
I hear no sixth shot in the audio, the “double-shot” (2 shots one just after the other) in this sequence 4 & 5.
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Interesting you both say shot 1 missed. I wonder if it was an intentional miss, a Go signal and or a distraction. To draw attention of say SS agents in a Altegens photo among others toward the rear. Away from the front?
Shot 1: Missed limo
Shot 2 & 3: JFK throat wound; JFK back Wound
Shot 4: Connelly’s back, chest, wrist wounds
Shot 5 & 6: JFK’s head wounds
According to the editorial note, Harris believes that the data gathered by WC from Parkland Hospital and Bethesda were largely correct, although military authorities prevented from dissecting the neck, sectioning the brain, and examining the clothes.
For Harris, the avalanche of lies has been aided and abetted by a complacent and compliant mass media. One of these lies is shown on the back cover. CE 386 shows JFK head wounds. The small wound at the base of the skull was taken as an entrance wound, and the larger wound above was the exit wound. Exhibit F-48 (HSCA) is a medical drawing of a photograph allegedly taken at Bethesda. It shows the back of the head virtually undamaged, with almost every hair in place as if JFK just stepped off Air Force One. One of these exhibits has to be a lie, and it´s clearly the second one.
Harris also discusses both acoustic and anatomic data combined with the Zapruder film to show JFK was struck by three bullets. He argues that JFK was killed instantly by a shot coming from above and behind, and that he was already dead when he was struck by the so-called “head shot”, which likely came from behind the fence overlooking the grassy knoll. Can we buy that?
“Harris also discusses both acoustic and anatomic data combined with the Zapruder film to show JFK was struck by three bullets. He argues that JFK was killed instantly by a shot coming from above and behind, and that he was already dead when he was struck by the so-called “head shot”, which likely came from behind the fence overlooking the grassy knoll. Can we buy that?”~Arnaldo M. Fernandez
Personally I do not buy that, no. But I do agree that the acoustic synced to the Z-film is legitimate evidence of 5 shots in Dealey Plaza.
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No.
It seems pointless to comment on a book nobody has seen, particularly from an unknown author with no documented expertise on the subject.
“no document expertise on the sunject”? To me, Photon, it appears he has enough.
“..an unknown author with no documented expertise on the subject.”~Photon
Expertise on what subject Photon? Is there now a certification for Assassination Studies? Do you have such certification, as you seem to in medicine, psychology, pathology, physics, law, and metaphysics? Shall we now address you as, ‘Magus Photon’?
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You mean he was already dead before the shot with the mercury ammo came(from the grassy knoll)? I’d be interested to read how Harris describes this, as the “above and behind” shot was one of 2 shots to the head(that were described by many as one immediately after the other), from all my readings. I think JFK suffered 4 shots in all(if you include the shot to the back that Gerald Ford “moved up to the neck”(my quotes).
“I don’t know who Patrick Harris or what his Ph.D. is in. Has anybody read his book about Medical Evidence in JFK’s Death?”~ Jeff Morley
I haven’t read the book myself, but on the promo site for book, this info can be seen:
“Patrick Harris holds a neuroscience doctorate. He is a former university and adjunct medical school professor, and has also worked extensively in industry and government.”
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I’ve read none of this but would key on the “medical school professor… worked extensively in industry and government”.
Here’s how I think about this book and its author and the way it has been published.
The Warren Commission said “X” is true.
The truth is “Y.”
It’s POSSIBLE X = Y.
Misdirection, which leads one away from the truth, is to say the truth is “Z”.
Where Z is not the same as X or Y.