The runaway winner of the best-read JFK Facts story for the second week in a row is Bill Simpich’s investigation of Oswald’s wallet.
The Top 5:
1) Who found Oswald’s Wallet? (April 21, 2014)
2) CIA chief told RFK about two shooters in Dallas (April 26, 2014)
3) Ex-flame says Jack Ruby ‘had no choice’ but to kill Oswald (March 21, 2013)
4) Editor@jfkfacts: Why do you publish comments from people who are obnoxious and wrong? (April 28, 2014)
5) Plausible suspect: William K. Harvey (April 28, 214)
can anyone find Danny Arce, possibly only survivor of Wm.Shelley
6thfloor laying crew 11-22-63.? Were section off Floor just mailed over present floor, or were actual floor boards removed and replaced? IMPORTANT. PLEASE COMMENT, WORKING ON A THEORY.
Is teaching at UT?
I sure wish I could get an explanation for the time this document was written and well as the narration of the event. 1:40pm??? Was Oswald even in custody at that point? If you rule out the story of the 10th and Patton Wallet…the police would only know that LHO was a missing employee of the TSBD.
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0133a.htm
Comments please. 😉
I have 1 simple question to ask. Can someone tell me the time Oswald was brought into the Police Station? I found something and i would like to compare answers to this question. Thanks.
Was the shirt that Oswald was supposed to have been wearing to work that day, at the TSBD, ever located? If it was…I wonder if it could be tested for nitrates even after all these years?
Almost forgot: Since we all can agree that LHO was in a Bus, and got his transfer. In a Taxi, and got his ride there is only a short time frame where we don’t know where Oswald was: How about this: Recall how, back in the day, there was NO CELL PHONE communication? Well…how about Oswald losing his patience after a pistol being stuck into his belly…getting on a bus…then wanting to get off and use a PAY PHONE. It can’t be ruled on or out. Just my view…that may explain someone else’s using a phone that day. Like maybe someone looking for him?
Speaking to the use of a phone 1963 vintage. Were phone records available? +- 1:00pm, Tippit enters business, asks to use the phone. +- 1:00pm Caretaker of rooming house answers phone, female calling about the President. She hangs up and turns on the TV. Oswald enters rooming house according to Caretaker += 1:00pm. Sometimes I wonder if we assume too much by Tippit’s silence while using the phone. It could be that the Top Ten record’s phone did not ring 7 or 8 times but instead Tippit stood there in total frustration listening to a busy signal while pondering what to do next. Or, perhaps someone picked up and thats all he needed to hear. I’ve called before to see if a certain voice picks up! It just seems to me that officer Tippit drove to where he had called. 1026 Beckley or 404 – 410 East Tenth where he was actually thought to reside by a couple of witnesses. By the way, do we know who lived there?
According to Polk’s Directory, the following lived at 404 E. Tenth: Charles and Ann McRavin, Margaret Bryan, Morris Lee, W.H. Kyser, and a Louis James lived in the apt in the back. None of these people had a telephone number listed in the Dallas telephone directories for 1963-64.
The house at 410 E. Tenth was vacant.
Bill, I think a whole lot would be answered if we knew where Officer Tippit called from Top Ten record shop. If you think as I do that Tippit drove to the place he had called. In my mind this simplifies things because the location list would be a very Short list indeed. His known locations were the detainment and quick search of Andrew’s car and of course 404 East Tenth. Andrews did not have a car phone so eliminate. 404 East Tenth is reported not to have listed phone in 1963 (could have had a phone just unlisted #). Now I mentioned his Known locations after the call so lets look at one other itsy bitsy possibility, the rooming house. Granted no witness stated Officer Tippit was seen there at around 1:00 pm or a little after. However we do have a statement placing Tippit using a telephone in the record shop at around 1:00 pm!!! A few blocks away and around 1:00 pm there is a housekeeper named Earlene Roberts who receives a phone call from a lady friend and Mrs Roberts states that “she” called wanting to know if Mrs Roberts had heard the news about the president. Mrs Roberts states she hung up and turned on the tv and it was at this time 1:00 pm or a little after that “Oswald” walked in. After 3 or 4 minutes Oswald walks out and appears to be waiting for a ride. Well maybe its a stretch but perhaps at about 1:00 pm Tippit was listening to a busy signal and wondering what to do as he stood there silent in the record store holding the receiver. I saw an interview about that rooming/boarding house and the difference was given by Mrs Roberts as to the difference between a roomer and a boarder. A roomer did not have access to the refrigerator, a boarder did. It was also stated in that interview that all the rooms were let except one and thats the one “Oswald” took. Meaning there were many people sharing that address. I would like to know if any were questioned as to whether or not a roomer had access to the house phone located in the living room next to the tv. If so was Oswald ever known to use or receive calls there prior to 22 Nov. That along with a questioning of the bus driver who had the route on 1026 N Beckley as to whether or not a man fitting Oswalds description got on the bus at sometime past 1:00 pm. If not, that puts him afoot or in a mechanical conveyance other than bus. List gets shorter!
Blake, here’s something to think about. The folks at 404 E. 10th may not have had telephones, but their next door neighbor, Barbara Davis certainly did, and her number curiously appears in Larry Crafard’s notebook. Wonder if she took messages for her neighbors? Could she have been on the phone when Tippit called? We know Mrs. Davis to be a friendly sort, she knew Helen Markham, and the killer of Tippit even had a smile for her on his way by.
Ken,
Again thanks for the information. I did some reading yesterday on Mr. Crafard but only from one source. I want to check him out a little further if possible. As to Virginia Davis and her sister in law Barbara Davis, It may be that she would take and deliver messages for her neighbors. Her number in Crafards notebook could be explained as him being new to town (Octoberish) and her living next to some apartments, he was given her number so she could keep him advised when a room opened up. Okay but it is plausible however unlikely. She could have been the eyes and ears of Tippit though it seems she would have said something to that effect when interviewed. Ken, I dont know but the fact that the 12:54 dispatch asking (Telling, in my opinion) Tippit that someones in Oakcliff and remains at large was his directive. I think he knew how to shrink “in Oakcliff” down to one small area. That was a coded message in my opinion of course. Think of it, without a specific address given via radio or phone (that we know of), Tippit knew exactly what street to head for, heck he even knew the block for he was there almost everyday. I also am leaning real hard to the probability that he first drove by 1026 N Beckley not to imply his cruiser was the one witnessed by Mrs Roberts. KenS thanks for your help.
Moving on 5: So…we certainly have a ‘who-dun-it’ going on here. I feel that Oswald’s actions certainly demonstrate a man who was running on adrenaline after escaping the police many times in the space of 1 hour. More than the average bear to be sure. What was Officer Tippit’s motive for getting out and pulling that gun?? Did he stop a Rambler Wagon or were witnesses wrong about that?? Did the News Crew misreport a ‘suspect vehicle’ being stopped in Oak Cliff? Since Officer Tippit’s wallet is in his wife’s possession (as it is today) we know it wasn’t his.
Actually, I find it most amazing that the first Officer on the Scene of the Tippit shooting, was an Off-duty cop who, before the WC answered MANY QUESTIONS with the such ambiguity: Questions like: Did you Question witnesses to the Tippit Shooting? Yes. Did you take down these witnesses names? No. Did you see other DPO’s at the scene of the Tippit Shooting. Yes. Can you tell us the names of the Officers you spoke to at the scene: No. Talk about not wanting to go on the record. So, this Officer helps validate the FBI Agents story about the wallet containing the Oswald/Hidell ID’s. He signs his name on the photo and writes ‘Oswald’s Wallet’ was on the scene. It doesn’t go with the discovery of Oswald’s Wallet by Officers on the ride downtown after LHO was arrested.
Which all brings me back to the proximity of 10th and Patton to Jack Ruby’s front door. Only 600 yards…a par 5. I know there’s been discussion about Oswald being framed. I don’t buy into it. IF the cops are to be believed, as he (again???) stood up in the Texas Theater and pulled a gun, he was willing to make a stand with a gun. Yet, the fact remains that it actually would be easier to go directly right to the Theater vs. bear left and go toward Ruby’s Apt.
Did Oswald hand Officer Tippit a wallet as he spoke to him at 10th and Patton? If so, then Oswald had 2 wallets on him. TheDPD were not yet looking for LHO by name yet…BUT THEY WERE looking for a vehicle that ‘fled the scene of the shooting at Elm and Houston’. In fact, there is a local Dallas news feed that began with the very words that ‘the suspected vehicle was stopped’ ( and I want to say ‘in Oak Cliff’) but I want to fact check that. The news feed went on to say it was only about 2-3 miles from the Dealey Plaza shooting. I spent a little time wondering if perhaps the car that was attributed to Tippit stopping by WC witnesses was the incident referred to on the clip.
Moving on 4: So, back to Oswald. He’s had his close shaves with the DPD since he left the 2nd floor lunchroom. Suddenly he is either being asked by Tippit for his Wallet/ID and knowing the jig was up (similar to his comments in the Texas Theater when finally confronted by the DPD there and pulled his gun too) and just fired away at Tippit. Coincidentally, I saw a program last night where an ‘expert’ mentioned that Tippit was ‘unarmed’. That was not true. Officer Tippit was found laying on his gun, which he had pulled out BEFORE Oswald flashed his gun. SOMETHING caused J.D. Tippit to want to get out of the car and pull his gun. It all has to be depending on the Wallet(s)…(if there were two Wallets) that is. Officer Tippits weapon was picked up by Mr. Benevides (sp) and put on the hood of his car (later photographed by the same news crew that filmed the Wallet discussion).
Moving on: Ok, so now Oswald grabs his gun. One would be foolish to think that Oswald would just go back to N. Beckley just for that gun. He, better than ANYONE on the planet, would know that he was going to be looked for soon. I feel he’s rattled by the ‘toot’. Again…imagine if you LHO, you just shot (or helped shoot) a US President, confronted a DPO with a gun who put a gun in your belly, and then, when you get back to some silly rooming house at N. Beckley, you find out that a DPC had just beeped. I think this spooked Oswald into action. If you’re Oswald, just going to get a gun out of your flop-house, why not tell the Cabbie to wait for a few minutes? You want to get away right?? But what happens. Oswald goes in and hears someone ‘tooting’ for him. Ok…you leave and cross the street…waiting…waiting…and then say screw it. Where does he go? A BEELINE toward Jack Ruby’s front door. 600 yards from it he’s stopped by Officer Tippit. If he was going to the Theater DIRECTLY, he would have walked straight own Beckley and taken a right. He didn’t.
I feel, Oswald was actually thinking he was being set up and, sadly for Officer Tippit, this was Oswald’s 3rd (if you believe Mrs. Roberts) police encounter. Yet this one was different. He’s nowhere near the TSBD and, contrary to what people may want others to believe, male adults the size of Oswald are a dime a dozen. Don’t forget, even Officer Tippit, was pretty busy that afternoon. He had just pulled over a car, did a visual search, zoomed around Oak Cliff inexplicably btw, and then had moved on before his deadly encounter (according to WC witnesses). As Oswald saw this car coming in his direction he changes direction and Officer Tippit either saw this and felt it suspicious, or was looking for him, OR was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. This brings us to the Wallet Story(s).
Jean and Jon: Here is my theory (in progress): Jonathan. I do assume Oswald killed Officer Tippit. I also assume Oswald either shot and killed JFK, or helped someone kill him (spotter or whatever). Look, there was testimony of some Warren Commission witnesses, from statements Oswald gave to Will Fritz, without a lawyer present and unsigned of course (it was from Fritz’s notes), that he was ‘in the second floor lunchroom’ when JFK was killed. His comment (again…according to Fritz) is actually validated by Roy Truly (Administrator at the TSBD), and Officer Baker, who found Oswald on the 2nd Floor drinking a coke and eating a sandwich apparently (according to the WC statement given by Baker). But, then again, it’s only a ‘true’ statement by Oswald b/c he was seen ‘after the fact’. So, Oswald may or may not have been able to get from the 6th Floor to the 2nd Floor Lunchroom within the 1 minute + of the shooting. Baker can be seen entering the front of the TSBD, on local film taken within seconds of the assassination so this ‘timeline’ can be measured with a degree of some certainty. Oswald was not breathless, was calm, and was taken truthfully at this point (even with a service revolver stuck up toward his gut) so that’s impressive. But then again, things happen.
Next, Oswald gets on a bus and is witnessed by, OF ALL PEOPLE, his first ‘landlady’, who recognizes him and sees that he has a small tear in the right sleeve of his shirt. Keep in mind that later on, apparently, her WC testimony was pretty useless because her Alz Dementia was really getting the best of her recollection. What stands out is that she did have the right bus (the one with Oswald on it) and she also recounted that Oswald soon got off (which is when he picked up his transfer ticket) the bus and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, she mentioned the shirt with the tear. This becomes important because on the gun, in the same position the gun would rub anyone firing a the rifle, a small amount of fabric was located embedded in the wood as I remember. This fabric came from the shirt that Oswald was wearing and if you believe the WC, apparently was id’d as coming from the shirt. So I do assume Oswald shot at JFK. Pt. 2 to follow:
Interesting. I have doubts about the second-floor lunchroom encounter. Baker’s same-day affidavit doesn’t mention it at all; only an encounter with an unidentified male on the third or fourth floor.
I agree Oswald’s movements post-assassination (the bus, the cab, the rooming house, the theater) are puzzling. But I’ve never had the feeling Oswald was fleeing or, to use your term, “high tailed.” He offered his cab to an old lady. He was relaxed and self-confident among the cops who seized him. That doesn’t add up in my mind to a guy who has just committed the most important murder of the 20th Century and is trying to get out of Dodge.
As to whether Oswald and Ruby were in cahoots some way, that’s a key question. The historical record gives some reason to believe they knew one another. But if they did, it certainly to my way of thinking would have been for business or professional reasons, not for social reasons. The historical record also gives some reason to believe Ruby knew well an Oswald look-alike.
Tippit’s movements post-assassination are even more inexplicable. He surely behaved like a puppet whose strings were being jerked violently in the last minutes of his life.
Gee…my ‘very’ long theory is still awaiting moderation. Oh well. Anyway..What I find amazing is this idea: What could possibly be the reason for the death of Officer Tippit, at the hands of Oswald (wallet). It was either Oswald did it or he didn’t. IF he didn’t any conspiracy theorist would have to have the IQ of a Mensa grandmaster (there isn’t one..just kidding). Look. Oswald is no dummy. yet even he knew he was lying about owning a rifle/gun. So, he’s no girl scout. He is very intelligent and crafted his responses by using his brains.
There is NO reason for Oswald to have gone over the route he was taking (the one towards Ruby’s Apartment) if he were not going there. The Texas Theater, IF he were going to meet a ‘handler’ there is VERY far off the path he was taking in the minute before Officer Tippit was killed. In fact, all he had to do was stay on Beckley all the way down and take a right.
But Oswald didn’t do that. He began to work his way toward Ruby’s Apartment.
The HSCA determined that Officer Tippit, often frequented a certain eating establishment visited by Ruby..and even Oswald. In fact, the HSCA determined that Tippit was actually involved in multi-year relationship with a woman who was waitressing. I think that the HSCA sure shook a lot more trees to give us more insight into just what Officer Tippit was doing in the last 20 minutes of his life. By all accounts….Tippit was running around like chicken with his head cut off. In fact, it would make perfect sense that Oswald, living alone, would go out for a bite to eat in the am. There was even testimony before either the WC, or the HSCA, that Oswald at one point reacted to the waitress overcooking his eggs and making a scene…in front of Officer Tippit. Go figure.
Still… even the Oswald’s, while living together at the Neely Street Apartment (where the famous backyard photos were taken), were even closer to Ruby’s Apartment (and yes…the Theater too). Bottom Line: Oswald knew the area and it makes no sense to me for him to be headed left (off of Beckley) IF he were wanting to head to the Texas Theater. Not only that….the movie was already well underway. And, if we’re to believe the interrogation by Capt. Fritz ( and I do), Oswald said he was headed to the movies…why would he go in the wrong direction? Why go late? Why walk all that way, with a pistol..a couple of wallets (allegedly right?)…and a bus transfer that you never use??
If you’re Tippit: What the heck were you doing watching the cross-over into Oak Cliff when you were told to be somewhere else? Why are you using a pay phone? Where were you headed? WHAT WAS THE HURRY??
But I don’t ascribe to a vast conspiracy (to quote Hillary R. Clinton). I just think the Mob controlled the actions of a very select few.
Jonathan,
Here’s the part that conspiracy books don’t mention. Whaley’s original affidavit says that when the old lady asked for a cab, “As I recall I said there will be one behind me very soon. I am not sure whether the man passenger repeated this to her or not.”
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0438-001.gif
This agrees with the way Oswald reportedly described the incident to Fritz (near the bottom of this page):
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=74028
Baker’s report basically says what he told the WC, that he encountered a man, called out to him, confronted him, and the manager said the he knew the man, that he worked there (in the TSBD). Baker recollected it as the 3rd or 4th floor. An apparent mistake, but somewhat understandable given the circumstance.
So, in his affidavit on 11/22 Baker did not recall seeing someone through the break room door, going through it and confronting O, or the coke. But did recall the man on the 3rd or 4th floor that he didn’t stop to question because Truly identified that man as an employee?
mball, I don’t think Baker made a mistake in his same-day affidavit. The affidavit describes what you describe of Baker’s WC testimony. Baker had no apparent reason to lie. There is no reason to believe his memory of events in the TSBD was impaired. I see nothing other than “group-think” to support the proposition Baker confronted Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom.
I’m not defending what was a very abbreviated, sloppy report. However, Roy Truly, the bldg. superintendant, said that the encounter took place in the 2nd floor lunchroom. His report to the police was considerably more detailed than Officer Baker’s.
I do find this one disturbing fact from Capt. Fritz’s interview of Ruby. WC Documents 2003. In it Fritz notes, which are typed, states, among other things:
1.Ruby feels Oswald Acted Alone (how nice of him to offer that to the Capt).
2.I see that, Capt. Fritz then goes on to make a correction or annotation in his own hand.
3.Notes that Ruby said he was upset because at BOTH of his Nightclubs, he (Ruby) is upset because People were ‘laughing’ and not ‘upset’. I find this pretty interesting to note because, according to other witnesses Ruby was going to close his clubs out of respect to the President.
Actually…I find that more than just interesting.
Jon. Actually, WC Doc 2003 starts with Baker being the person who can ID Oswald as being in the building.
I’ve just re-read M.L. Baker’s affidavit, which is the third affidavit published in C.E. 2003. Baker describes encountering a white male about 30 years old weigh about 165 pounds and wearing a light brown jacket on the third or fourth floor. He does not mention Oswald at all in his affidavit.
Roy Truly’s affidavit is at odds with Baker’s. Truly has Baker confronting Oswald in the second floor lunchroom and does not describe the encounter Baker describes.
The two affidavits are straightforward and contemporaneous.
So, either Baker or Truly is LYING. I point the finger at Truly. Baker was just a garden variety cop doing his job. Truly on the other hand oversaw the whole operation of the TSBD, which has to be considered a hotbed of sinister activity on 12-22-63. He’s not a garden variety bystander in that building.
In his affidavit, Truly takes pains to state he was checking employees and found “Lee” missing. Of course at the point in time Truly allegedly did this (15 minutes after his jaunt with Baker), a number of TSBD employees who had left the building to see what was going on were precluded from re-entering the building because it was on lockdown.
Yes, either Baker or Truly is lying. Truly right away joins the chorus of “Oswald did it.” I say history should give him a real close look.
Jonathon…I wanted to be sure to explain my comment more clearly on this 2nd floor Lunchroom topic. I simply feel that all three are telling the truth. Oswald siad he was confronted in the lunchroom…..truly mentioned that this was the only room in the building with a coke and a candy machine. In light of Bakers own comments on it i just think he is confused as to the floor. Baker later on drew a diagram.
The time of the shooting of Officer Tippit: I thought I would see what time the shooting actually took place by locating calls to the Ambulance company. I think it’s important to note that the witness stated she heard the shots, looked out her window and saw Tippit’s body in the street…and ran to the phone and dialed ‘O’. Called the Police..and the police called the Ambulance Company, in this case…only 2 blocks away.
The Dudley M. Hughes Funeral Home is the central ambulance dispatching point for southern Dallas. It either handles calls directly or calls other funeral homes in the system that cover other areas. Dudley M. Hughes Jr., the dispatcher, took the call from the police. He filled out an ambulance call slip with the code “3-19” (which means emergency shooting) and the address, “501 East 10th Street.” He put the slip into the time clock and stamped it 1:18 p.m., November 22, in the space marked “Time Called.” Since the location was just two short blocks away he told one of his own drivers, Clayton Butler, to respond. Butler and Eddie Kinsley ran down the steps, got into the ambulance and took off, siren screaming.
Butler radioed his arrival at the scene at 1:18 p.m., within 60 seconds of leaving the funeral home. He remembers that there were at least 10 people standing around the man lying on the ground. It was not until he and his assistant pulled back a blanket covering Tippit that they realized the victim was a policeman.
Butler ran back to his radio to inform headquarters. The radio was busy and he could not cut in. He yelled “Mayday” to no avail, and went back to Tippit. The officer lay on his side, face down with part of his body under the left front fender of the police car. Butler and Kinsley rolled him over and saw the bullet wound through Tippit’s temple. Butler told us, “I thought he was dead then. It’s not my position to say so. We got him into the ambulance and we got going as quick as possible. On the way to the hospital I finally let them know it was a policeman.” The record shows that Butler called in to the funeral home at 1: 26 p.m. to say he had reached the hospital.
Excellent detail. I’m sure the doubters will ask. Where is this from? The timing does get incredibly detailed. Now we would back up 1-2 minutes for DPD to get the call and call the funeral home. Prior to this the 1st guy to try to call the DPD over Tippit’s radio couldn’t figure out how to use it(Beinavides?). A minute, maybe more.
And he stayed in his cab or truck a minute or two afraid the killer(s?) would come back. The guy who did call the DPD drove up on a small gathering crowd. 1-2 minutes for the crowd to begin to gather.
I.E., your getting to the point O couldn’t have got to the Tippit scene, done the deed, and made it to the Texas Theater in time.
Others have dissected this subject much better and in greater detail than my comment. The info is out there. Read people, like Allen Dulles said you would not. Just don’t beleive the Mockingbird/MSM.
FREETHEFILES
The information about the process used to actually get the operator, police, and ambulane to 10th and Patton I found online in a piece called Car 10 Where Are You.
Interesting research on Officer Tippit’s movements. Very busy man that day. It’s long document that contains hits and misses and coincidental meetings as well. It is what it is. But, for someone searching for a link…it could provide some good details. ;0)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm
Johathan. I believe that Oswald was part of a conspiracy to kill JFK. Now, whether or not Oswald was the man in the window with the gun will be debated forever on the stand-alone evidence I suppose. Arnold Rowland told his story, on film, that he saw a man with a rifle, in two different windows at two different times that day. The Robert Hughes film clearly shows a fluttering in the window attributed to where the last sighting was, where there were shells heard falling, where there was a rifle seen being withdrawn etc, just ask JFK’s Limo was passing beneath it. It’s awfully hard to refute that. The First reaction to the shot, of the SS Agents in the Follow-up car, in the Altgens photo show that as well. Whether or not it was Oswald doing the shooting is the question of the hour right? So, in my view, Oswald’s degree of being an assassin, or a part of a plot is: Yep.
I do feel Oswald high-tailed it out of there after Baker put that pistol into his gut. I do feel he went home and figured out that he was being hunted. So, as his actions have demonstrated his awareness of ‘something’ I do feel he killed Tippit, out of insecurity about being caught…or as a result of the words he spoke to Tippit about at the meeting at 10th and Patton.
I do believe that Oswald and Ruby were connected. I believe that Oswald was headed to Jack Ruby’s to figure out what had happened.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm Back to Officer Tippit. In this link there are just too many out of the ordinary movements by Officer Tippit to be explained rationally…and all picking up with intensity just after Kennedy was shot. From his position on the crossover to Oak Cliff…to his actions in the moments before being killed. Stuff happens for a reason.
Sooner or later someone will sing…
Btw…I’m still waiting for my very long theory to be posted Leslie….I have no idea why it’s taken so long.
Bill Callahan,
Do you believe this:
Oswald killed JFK. Oswald killed Tippet. Oswald and Ruby worked together in some way.
Thanks for your response.
Everyone here who believe Oswald was set up as but was not the assassin of JFK raises his or her hand. Good. That’s a majority who believe he was set up as JFK’s assassin but did not kill JFK.
If you raised your hand, why if at all do you believe Oswald killed Tippit? Putting aside the fact neither the shell casings found near the murder scene nor the bullets recovered from Tippit’s body could be matched to his revolver, which the DPD never sniffed for recent firing, there are too many other problems with the story.
A number of witnesses placed Tippit’s killing at around 1:06 p.m. No way Oswald gets from his rooming house to the murder scene in six or fewer minutes. That’s problem #1. Unless you want to believe the Warren Commission, which ignored all the witnesses and arbitrarily pegged the murder at about 1:16 p.m.
The witnesses who described a single killer of Tippit described a dark-haired man wearing a white shirt and a white jacket. Oswald was arrested wearing a brown shirt over a white tee shirt. The recovered jacket wasn’t his, just wasn’t. That’s problem #2.
Problem #3: Butch Burroughs sold popcorn to Oswald at 1:15 p.m. A
Continuation: At one time, on camera, Burroughs states Oswald entered (sneaked into) the Texas Theater between 1:00 and 1:06 p.m. Burroughs, who had no apparent reason to lie, also later said he (too) witnessed the arrest of a “second Oswald,” who was taken out the back of the theater, about 4-5 minutes after LHO was drageed out the front of the Theater. Problem #3 is that Burroughs provides an alibi for Oswald in the Tippit killing, no matter which time you select for the killing.
It would have been ludicrous for Henry Wade to prosecute Oswald for Tippit’s murder. Wade couldn’t very well use the wallet Westbrook produced at the murder scene; that would be a huge can of worms. Wade would have huge problems proving Oswald’s revolver was the murder weapon. A competent defense attorney would shred the line-up testimony and that of Helen Markham. But best of all would be when Oswald took the stand in his own defense and started spilling the beans. That just never could have happened.
Jonathan, I take note of the highly subtle reference here:
“The jacket recovered had a California label . . . Oswald had been living in California pre-Russia.”
I read this as a veiled attempt at obfuscation as defined:
“Obfuscation (or beclouding) is the hiding of intended meaning in communication, making communication confusing, willfully ambiguous, and harder to interpret. . The word comes from Latin obfuscatio, from obfuscāre (“to darken”), from ob (“over”) + fuscāre (“to make dark”), from fuscus (“dark”).”
Why wasn’t the reader advised that the jacket under scrutiny may or may not have belonged to Oswald while he was in Marine Corps training in California; he didn’t simply stumble over to the state, he was stationed there. Why would anyone leave out the following rather than casually commenting that obtw, Oswald had been “living” in California . . .?
January 18, 1957: LHO reports to Camp Pendleton, California, where he is assigned to the “A” Company of the 1st Battalion, 2nd Infantry Training Regiment.
February 27, 1957: LHO goes on leave for 2 weeks.
March 18, 1957: LHO reports to the Naval Air Technical Training Center in Jacksonville, Florida.
May 1, 1957: LHO is promoted to Private 1st Class.
May 3, 1957: LHO is given a “Confidential” security clearance.
May 3, 1957: LHO leaves for Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi.
June 17, 1957: LHO completes the Aircraft Control and Warning Operator Course in
Biloxi.
June 20, 1957: He goes on leave, possibly visiting Marguerite.
June 25, 1957: LHO is given the occupational specialty of Aviation Electronics Operator.
July 9, 1957: LHO reports to the Marine Corps Air Station at El Toro, California, and is
attached to the 4th Replacement Battalion.
August 22, 1957: LHO departs for Japan.
It’s a subtlety that may be lost on many, but those studying the cover up closely will recognize the pattern in the discourse.
Jonathan,
The “sniff test” for firearms wasn’t considered a legitimate test even in 1963. The shell casings *did* match Oswald’s revolver. The bullets couldn’t be matched to any weapon because they were undersized for the barrel.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=73983
A jacket was found along the path witnesses said Oswald took, and when Brewer saw him near the theater a few minutes later he was no longer wearing a jacket.
The jacket recovered had a California label, and Marina said it was an old jacket he’d brought with him to Russia. Oswald had been living in California pre-Russia.
As usual, the implied frame-up story makes no sense. The jacket Oswald had on when he left his rooming house disappeared but the frame-up crew had a similar one to throw down…. but “they” planted a jacket with no laundry tags that could be linked to the patsy. Oops!
To hear conspiracy theorists tell it, “they” couldn’t get the post office/Klein’s paperwork or length of the rifle straight, didn’t get the Tippit crime scene wallet into evidence, planted a dented shell that “couldn’t have been fired,” lined up the M-C shells “all in a row,” and so on and on. “They” popped up anywhere needed to frame the patsy, and they were complete idiots. The wackiness of any frame-up scenario, when it’s actually spelled out, shows that there was no “they.”
Hold the phone, Jean. As you must know, the bullets recovered from Tippit’s body don’t match the cartridges. WC defenders speculate that the killer therefore must have fired six shots and the other bullets and cartridges are (conveniently) missing. Can you name witnesses who heard six shots?
KenS,
Not six shots, five. Here’s the WC explanation for the mismatch of one bullet and shell (next-to-last paragraph):
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=946&relPageId=196
What’s *your* explanation for the mismatch of the brands of one bullet and one empty cartridge? The wacky conspirators couldn’t plant the right things?
Saying “two shooters” won’t help — there would still be a mismatch.
I stand corrected; my own synaptic misalignment. Of course, five shots, but please read the WC words carefully. Their own explanation is only a theory, that they admit is not supported by evidence.
I do not, however, believe there were two shooters.
KenS,
Saying six shots instead of five is no big deal. I agree, the WC explanation is only a theory. However, CTs have been criticizing the WC explanation since around 1967 without suggesting a better one, or at least not one I’ve ever heard.
Pointing out discrepancies like this is easy. Explaining the evidence some other way is the hard part. The WC explanation looks pretty good if you accept that no one has offered a better one.
The WC doesn’t have a theory as to five shots. The WC just makes up a story about maybe five shots were fired. The Warren Report is absurd because of all its “mays” and “maybes”.
Jonathan,
Yes, CTs have been complaining about the WC explanation for the mismatch in brands for half a century, but their own explanation is nowhere to be seen.
SOMEBODY shot Tippit, right? Somebody left empty shells at the scene, and bullets were recovered from his body.
You guys sneer at the WC explanation. What’s yours?
Jean Davison,
What do I think happened to Tippit? Thanks for the million dollar question.
I focus on Tippit. The way he said goodbye uncharacteristically to his son that morning. The way he drove around frantically post-assassination.
I take it he knew something was up. He was a bit player. A guy who was easy to manipulate. He was following some script. As was Oswald.
If you don’t believe this, how do you rationally and unemotionally account for Oswald’s and Tippit’s movements post-assassination?
Jonathan,
You changed my question to something else, so let me try again. You said the WC made up an “absurd” story that “maybe 5 shots were fired” to explain the mismatched brands of one of the Tippit bullets and empty cartridges.
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=946&relPageId=196
If there’s a better explanation, what is it?
Mrs. Roberts, Oswald’s landlady said Oswald wore no jacket when he arrived home on 11/22, but that he departed wearing a dark one. She could not ID Oswald’s gray jacket (he owned blue and gray jackets). I believe that the broadcast descriptions of the suspect’s jacket in the Tippit shooting were for a white jacket, not gray. One exception was for a light brown color. The jacket found behind the Texaco station was white, not gray. That jacket had a laundry tag; Marina said that she never knew Oswald to have his jackets dry cleaned. The jacket was made in both California and Philadelphia, as I recollect. As to finding the jacket, good luck. Apparently it was Officer Griffin who found it, not Westbrook. Neither of their reports of the day in re their activities mentions anything about seeing or obtaining a jacket. The whole discovery of that jacket is a mess, and leaves one in some doubt that it was recoovered as they later said it was.
mball,
Four months after she saw it, Roberts thought the jacket was “darker” than CE 162, but she said she was watching the news on TV and not paying much attention. The one thing she was sure of was that Oswald was zipping up a jacket when he left. When Johnny Brewer saw him less than an hour later Oswald wasn’t wearing a jacket, so where did it go?
Oswald’s jacket was light-colored, hard for me to tell much more than that from the color photos of CE 162 online. Are you sure the found jacket was white? Again, hard to tell from a b&w film.
The FBI tried to tie the jacket to Oswald through the tags but it couldn’t find any laundry or dry cleaners in New Orleans or Dallas that could match those tags with *anybody*, not just Oswald.
Was it, as Marina said, an old jacket he’d brought to Russia from California and the tags were so old they couldn’t be traced (or maybe it was even a secondhand jacket, as somebody has suggested)?
If there’s a better explanation, what is it? Did some guy from out of town lose a jacket along the same route where Oswald apparently lost one? Or is it that wacky frame-up crew again, planting a jacket with tags that can’t be linked to Oswald?
Oswald apparently had two jackets – blue and gray. The blue one seems to have been recovered at a later date from the TSBD. Wes Frazier said that Oswald wore a gray jacket to work on 11/22. Oswald arrived at his rooming house in shirt sleeves. How did he get a jacket at his residence? Further, Frazier said that the gray jacket recovered near the Tippit murder scene was not the jacket Oswald wore to work that morning. While the photo of the recovered jacket may be sketchy as to color, the WC described it as gray. The witness descriptions were almost uniformly of a white jacket. Then there is the matter of the officers’ lack of mention of a jacket in their reports of activity, as well as the failure to say anything about a jacket in the Oswald interrogation reports. A better explanation is that, on the basis of the evidence, we don’t know where that jacket came from or who owned it.
mball,
The jacket is listed in this DPD report:
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/26/2601-001.gif
It was called in on the police radio at around 1:25, before Oswald was arrested:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm
The officer who called it in described it as a “white jacket” and later someone read off a tag number.
If it belonged to someone else, what happened to Oswald’s jacket? If the WC explanation is wrong, fine, but what’s the alternative?
That document is an evidence form.. As far as I know, the reports submitted by the relevant officers(Griffin and Westbrook) in re their activities of the day don’t mention getting or obtaining a jacket. There is a difference between those types of documents. I’ve seen nothing indicating that Oswald was asked about that jacket, which is odd given the importance placed on that jacket. One problem is the color; white (as reported) isn’t what the WC presented (gray). Oswald’s two jackets were blue and gray. Inasmuch as the blue one was recovered in the TSBD at a later time,and inasmuch as Wes Frazier said that Oswald wore a gray jacket to work on the 22nd (not the one the WC showed him, he said), and inasmuch as Oswald arrived home with no jacket, the question of how he got a jacket at his rooming house is a good one. I can’t answer that one. But the discovery of the jacket behind the Texaco station is strange.
Why did a cop refer to the shells as from an automatic pistol?
I believe that it had to do with the shape of the shell. An automatic shell has an area for the pistol extractor to latch on to it and eject it from the weapon.
My post was a question posed as a factual response to a comment far above.
Here are the details about those automatic shells:
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v1n2/tippit.pdf
More than one witness saw the shooter knocking shells out of the gun as he crossed the Davis women’s yard. The shells were found there, not in the street near the body, where automatic shells would presumably have landed.
I know you’re ready for this one, Jean. WC questioning Barbara Davis:
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And he was emptying it?
Mrs. DAVIS. It was open and he had his hands cocked like he was emptying it.
Mr. DULLES. Which hand did he have it?
Mrs. DAVIS. Right hand.
Mr. BALL. To his left palm?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him throw anything away?
Mrs. DAVIS. No.
Mr. BALL. You didn’t?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.
WC questioning Virginia Davis:
Mrs. DAVIS. It was just as best as I can remember, it was a little pistol, and he was emptying the shells. Where the shell was coming out, he was emptying the shells into his left hand.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see what he did with the shells when he emptied them into his left hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. After we, well, he was dropping them on the ground because we found two.
Mr. BELIN. You said that you found two? Did you see him drop them on the ground or not?
Mrs. DAVIS. No; we didn’t see him.
Mr. BELIN. You just saw him emptying shells in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You didn’t actually see what he did with them when he got them in his hand, did you?
Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head no?
Mrs. DAVIS. No.
I once saw David Copperfield make a Chrysler disappear from a stage in front of my eyes. It was amazing! Think what you could do with a little sleight of hand and some .38 shells!
Your point about the location of the shells is a good one, and makes the officers ID of them as automatic shells just bizarre. No automatic I ever fired threw a shell two houses down the street! Unless of course, they actually found some automatic shells, exactly where you would expect them to be.
Well, we have more than one story floating around, including Sgt. Gerald Hill’s.
Was someone trying to frame Oswald by ejecting revolver shells, and Tippit’s murderer fled after using their automatic pistol?
Yes, Griffiths’ article is good. It does seem like both types of shells were found at the scene. Unfortunately, the shells evidence was muddled so it’s difficult to tell exactly what got found where. But Griffiths is right, it’s hard to mistake an automatic shell for a revolver round. As to where the automatic shells would have been ejected, if the shooter was standing on the sidewalk and facing Tippit as he began to move around the front of his patrol car, I’d expect the shells to be ejected to the right and rear or straight up and back. That would be towards the yard or bushes or whatever was there behind the shooter.
Here’s a diagram of the Tippit scene. Scoggins’ cab is near the corner. The shells were found in the yard of the house marked 400, where the Davis women were.
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=139055
Leslie…here are some statement attributed to Oswald, while being questioned by Will Fritz. This is interesting because it is full of notes (albeit they are written by Fritz) of what Oswald was saying. I think it will help you get your last question answered (if only by a guy who just murdered someone).
http://www.statementanalysis.com/lee-harvey-oswald/
Bill, I look forward to reading your comment that has yet to be posted. For now, I’m not following your line of thought. Why is the proximity (yards or miles as the crow flies or not) of Jack Ruby’s apartment in Oak Cliff to Oswald’s boarding house so important to you? I’m not saying that it isn’t – I too have studied this aspect – but I’m not clear why you think that it’s significant. Could you elaborate?
Leslie and others: Isn’t it kinda crazy how Oswald, according to Fritz, says he changed his pants etc…grabbed a gun…and then left the Bus Transfer in them? I mean…would anyone who just killed a President be changing his pants after learning that a DP Car had come by and tooted for him???
Let’s look at a couple of statements: “When I left the Texas School Book Depository, I went to my room, where I changed my trousers, got a pistol, and went to a picture show.” No equivocation or slippery language there. Also, “I did not kill President Kennedy or Officer Tippit.” Granted, these may not be Oswald’s exact words, but I guess they will have to do. According to Statement Analysis, based on these two statements, Oswald went to his room, got a pistol, changed his pants, went to the movies, and didn’t shoot anyone. All those other statements attributed to him might not have been his exact words either, so the entire analysis is a waste of time. But I think I will choose my interpretation.
Leslie. I don’t ascribe in the ‘they will wear you down’ assertion. There is a legal term for things that are just plain obvious. It’s in Latin and means ‘The thing speaks for itself’. Oswald and Ruby sure did a lot of ‘tandem’ movements that day didn’t they??? I don’t think they were so random. The difference between the men’s residences is not the issue. It’s the proximity from 10th and Patton to Jack Ruby’s Apartment. So again…I’ll just ask away: Has this been published before?? If not…why?? (My response is that this murder was investigated by the DPD and they kept it out for ‘other’ reasons).
Oswald’s trip to the movie theater, in the moments after Tippit’s death IS normal. That was probably the only action that makes sense in fact! He knew there were ‘witnesses’, he knew there were sirens, and he saw the police begin to flood the area from his hiding spot and Mr. Brewer saw him checking this out while he was in the shoe store. All normal actions for a guy who just killed a cop.
You mention you agree with Jean’s comment about the milage. Good for you. :). However, factually, all Oswald had to do was cross 2 streets and a 2 alleys to get to Ruby’s. Period. I’d encourage both you (and Jean) to use the Google Earth tool to do measurements. This will help you understand the distances I’m writing about more easily.
As far as Oswald’s guilt…I do believe he shot and killed Tippit. I do believe that his arrival at the Texas Theater was simply a move that was necessitated by the interruption of Oswald on his path (and eventual Murder).
I see that my theory on why is still under review. Maybe this will help you…and Jean…to see why distances do matter in this case. I’ll hold off discussion on it until it is put up. I think you’ll be able to understand my theory after the moderator puts it up. ( I posted it after 1 am last night and I see it’s not there yet.
Jean. I’m a little confused by the Jefferson and Marsalis comments/reference. There are actually 2 of them. Jefferson and Marsalis actually converge about 1.7 miles from the scene of the shooting of President Kennedy. I’m not totally sure what you’re referring to when you say .2 miles? The other convergence of the two names are in the meeting of S.Marsalis and S. Jefferson, both in Oak Cliff, which are extremely close to Jack Ruby’s Apartment and that is 2.25 miles from the TSBD yet only 300 yards from Jack Ruby’s Apartment.
Again…I fully agree about the coincidences of any event. Yet, my basic premise is still the lack of candor by the investigative agencies in discussing/reporting, for that matter, the proximity of 10th and Patton (Tippit Shooting) to Jack Ruby’s Apartment.
IMO not only was Ruby, by his own admission after his court case, in front of the Chief Justice, and in front of the Press, more involved than he admitted. In fact, I believe that Ruby was stalking Oswald and even Oswald was stalking him. Heck…I’d be interested in figuring out how Oswald was able to maneuver around Dallas to shoot at General Walker, by rifle…w/o being seen. Oh Brother can you spare a ride?? 🙂
Bill,
I could be wrong, but Google maps doesn’t show me a second intersection of Jefferson and Marsalis, only the one I mentioned at E. Jefferson. South Jefferson is in another part of town, unless I’m totally misreading the map.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/E+10th+St+%26+S+Patton+Ave,+Dallas,+TX+75203/S+Marsalis+Ave+%26+E+Jefferson+Blvd,+Dallas,+TX+75203/@32.7471452,-96.8193328,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x864e999755f98d4f:0x61d2a8e7bc767dd!2m2!1d-96.8187386!2d32.7471779!1m5!1m1!1s0x864e999788707b2b:0xdb3f0a57ca5ef9c9!2m2!1d-96.8156407!2d32.747178?hl=en
The WR mentioned the proximity of Ruby’s apartment to the Tippit murder scene on p. 650 (as Dale Myers pointed out on his website, I notice).
If you listen closely, Ruby talked about a conspiracy but he repeatedly denied he was part of it. He insisted that the rightwing plotters who killed Kennedy wanted it to appear he was involved because he was a Jew, as he tried to explain in his testimony.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/ruby_j1.htm
We don’t know that Oswald wasn’t seen when he went to shoot Walker. If he went by city bus, who’s going to remember a stranger carrying a package? Anyone who saw him may have thought it was curtain rods or something similar and paid no more attention, like someone else we know.
Ruby lied when he denied being associated with Oswald and the conspiracy. The HSCA polygraph committee confirmed his extremely high responses when he replied, and that the FBI polygraph operator misrepresented those reactions in his report to the WC, by setting control points much higher than they should have been. This article explains:
http://jfkhistory.com/Polygraph/polygraph.html
It’s instructive to read Ruby’s Warren Commission testimony.
Ruby is a timeline person. He takes Warren through Friday night. Then says, if you want an honest shake from me, take me to Washington, D.C.
Warren asks if he knew Oswald. Ruby dodges the question.
Ruby does a dance. He tells Warren he has a lot to tell but can’t tell it here in Dallas. He tells Warren he, Warren, is danger; and so are Ruby and his family members. He pleads again to go to D.C. Warren says it can’t be done.
Ruby gets in a quarrel with his lawyer about whether he acted with pre-meditation, which Ruby denies.
Warren tells Ruby: You’ve gone this far. It makes no sense to go farther.
Ruby then tells Warren without hesitation he killed Oswald to spare Jackie a trial in Dallas.
Warren asks again, did Ruby know Oswald. Ruby says, “No.” and then changes subjects.
Robert,
You may not have seen this long thread discussing the HSCA polygraph panel’s findings. I’ve said everything I can say about it there.
https://jfkfacts.org/assassination/why-do-so-many-americans-believe-jfk-conspiracy-theories/
Bill Callahan writes:
“Yet, my basic premise is still the lack of candor by the investigative agencies in discussing/reporting, for that matter, the proximity of 10th and Patton (Tippit Shooting) to Jack Ruby’s Apartment.”
Bill, the investigative agencies never wanted to entertain the idea that Ruby and Oswald knew each other. According to Hoover’s and Katzenbach’s instructions, Oswald was NOT allowed to have confederates. Really, it’s just that simple. Therefore the proximity of Oswald to Ruby’s apartment was another of those coincidences to be thoroughly ignored. [The WC was so blatantly dishonest that it took Ruby’s word over Seth Cantor’s that Ruby wasn’t at Parkland Hospital during JFK’s final minutes.]
I’m a proponent of a small hit & run assassination leading to a monolithic cover-up. I think Oswald was trying to complete a predetermined rendezvous at Ruby’s apartment or nearby when he encountered Tippit (who should NOT have been where he was). The Texas Theater was expedient after Oswald killed Tippit.
Bill Pierce, have you studied the various alleged sightings of Oswald and Ruby together? Several of them appear credible to me, but close scrutiny of the interviews of said witnesses indicates that authorities dismissed most of them out of hand. I’m especially interested in the sighting reported in the Texas Hill Country.
That phrase…I finally remembered it: Res Ipsa Locator (sp): The thing speaks for itself.
As a life long resident of the “City of Hate” perhaps I can clarify this Marsalis/Jefferson intersection issue. N. Marsalis Ave merges with N. Zangs Blvd which then immediately merges with E. Jefferson Blvd to take drivers over our beautiful Trinity River on the Jefferson Viaduct. There is no actual intersection here, only a merge. Marsalis and Jefferson intersect, as has been pointed out, close to where Mr. Ruby lived. Sorry if anyone’s disappointed.
Thanks, Ken.
Thanks Ken…I think we’re all writing of the same ‘intersection’. 🙂
KenS. I concur with both Jean and Bill, thank you for the clarification. I lived in Dallas in the 70’s and 80’s and know that Oak Cliff was a well established neighborhood that also encompassed light industry. I do know that Zangs was somewhat a thoroughfare if memory serves leading South out of Dallas as an alternate to the new/under construction I35, not unlike Northwest Highway that served as a route around the city. So I’ve long wondered why Oswald took the risks he took when there were so many places to seek shelter and seclusion until dark off of the Zangs route. Why was he so brazen in broad daylight? If Oswald didn’t choose to leave Dallas via a bus route south, there were a number of public buildings where he could have sought refuge … if memory serves, the library and a church among others, and of course several gas stations and repair shops along the way. If he was headed in the direction of Ruby’s apartment, why did he suddenly divert and/or kill Officer Tippit? And after that alleged shooting why didn’t he continue post haste to Ruby’s apartment? Why did he divert to the theatre? There were other buildings en route that would have provided cover until dusk. This is why I question the significance of the ‘distance’ from an Oswald rooming house, Tippit’s murder and Ruby’s apartment. I believe that it’s irrelevant. I contend someone was en route to a rendezvous at the Texas Theatre, and I wonder if we aren’t talking about “two Oswalds.”
I also think it’s important to note that Ruby’s personal life seems to have centered around his sister’s address in Oak Lawn, not his new address in Oak Cliff. In fact I wonder if that Oak Cliff address was little more than a place for him to crash and/or monitor Oswald. Testimony suggests to me that Ruby’s real life revolved around his bar in downtown Dallas and his sister in Oak Lawn. How much more detail do we know about Ruby’s life in Oak Cliff? When did he move into the apt. building? If the satellite image of that location is any indication, it wasn’t exactly the epitome of a home.
Leslie…back in 1963 it was kind of like a, for lack of a better picture I can supply, a Florida-condo-esq looking Apartment. It looked like it had 4/6 units with them being stacked 2 or 3 stories high. I’ve seen them mentioned just once (in a small clip in some documentary) but they did not appear to be unattractive (even by today’s standards). Today the site is a Comfort Inn/Quality Inn type establishment.
Oswald/Ruby Connection ideas: I wonder how many people have ever been told, had revealed, investigated that following: How many people know that the site of the Tippit Killing, 10th and Patton, is only 150 yards from Jack Ruby’s front door (222-225 S. Ewing). We spend so much time looking at small compartmentalized snippets…and may have missed this bigger picture. Thoughts?
Bill,
Ruby’s apartment wasn’t 150 yards from the Tippit scene, but about a half mile away (Google maps). Who told you “150 yards”?
I walked it.
Jean, Actually, the total distance from Oswald’s Rooming house at 1050 N. Beckley is about 4,700 feet from Ruby’s home (straight line). The distance from where Ruby fell, at the corner of 10th and Patton, is only about 1800 feet or 600 yards. From people who saw Oswald walking in the other direction before he met Tippit, he actually may have been only 1544 feet, or about 500 yards. The main point here…no matter which measurement, the distance is only a simple stroll. No more than a Par 5 on a Golf Course. I do take responsibility for being flip with the 150 yard notation. I should have not used it but I was trying to make a point.
FYI, It’s actually 1250 Yards (give or take) from Oswald’s Rooming House to 10th and Patton. Furthermore, who told you that it was a 1/2 mile from 10th and Patton to Ruby’s Apt? The reality is that it is only about 4600 feet from Oswalds Rooming House to Ruby’s Home. That makes the trip from 10th and Patton (Tippit Murder) to Ruby’s home, about 7.5 times closer than the first part of his ‘get-away’.
Jean, I wanted to follow up on my last comment:
To get from 10th and Patton today is MUCH more difficult because of the new school located at Tippits Murder Scene. It would have required, in 1963, Crossing only two streets and two parking alleys to get to Ruby’s Home back then. In any case….Oswald was not headed for the matinee at the theater…that much is obvious ( if only to me). 😉
You assume Oswald killed Tippit.
Please lay out your argument.
Bill,
My source was Google maps.
It’s possible that even Oswald didn’t know where he was headed (realistically, he couldn’t have expected to escape the TSBD with all those lawmen and witnesses outside).
The bus transfer in his pocket was good only for the bus stop at Jefferson and Marsalis, which was .2 mile from the crime scene. He could’ve connected with a Greyhound bus from there, apparently.
Less likely, imo, is the theory of a congressman on the HSCA. He thought Oswald intended to confront an informant who’d help destroy the Texas Communist Party, a man whose home was only two blocks away on the same street:
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=69577
Coincidences do happen. Here’s a weird one I recently ran across. When Mark Lane was given a testimonial dinner in NYC in 1962, one of the dinner’s sponsors was named Jack Rubenstein. (Not our Jack Rubenstein.)
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=146412
Bill Callahan, in the words of Salandia, “they will wear you down.”
I think that the essence of what you are arguing regardless of yards or meters, relates to the fact that AN Oswald and Jack Ruby were known to one another and that the two lived in the same neighborhood of Oak Cliff at the time of the assassination. I agree with J. Davison that the distance as depicted on google maps calls into question the precise mileage, but I consider that an irrelevant, Except as it pertains to the time it took to arrive at the Texas Theatre. That introduces another argument that will distract from yours.
I believe that the central issue – if indeed this element of the events on 112263 are highly relevant – is why would AN Oswald veer to the East and South from his boarding house, and then turn to the West and somewhat South to end up at the Texas Theatre? Was he en route one place (Ruby’s apartment), Tippitt intervened, and Oswald turned toward his final destination? Was Oswald even in the vicinity?
I notice a certain degree of focus and agitation in the responses to your astute observations (always a good sign that you are on to something) that lead me to think that this is an uncomfortable scene in the investigation for those arguing Oswald’s guilt.
Jean Davison states: “It’s possible that even Oswald didn’t know where he was headed (realistically, he couldn’t have expected to escape the TSBD with all those lawmen and witnesses outside).”
If he (Oswald) realistically didn’t expect to escape from the TSBD with all those lawmen and witnesses outside, why in hell did he then brazenly head toward Poydras and Lamar and take public transportation to Oak Cliff, knowing that Truly had that address on file? Why didn’t he simply turn himself in?
Further if so crazed a lone assassin who plotted the transfer of his own rifle undetected into his very new place of work – a location that happened to provide him the perfect perch from which to shoot a president sitting in his limousine who was unfortunately under the presumption that the US Secret Service, on the payroll of the US government would do their job – not plan an escape? Why did he simply stumble into theatre?
An assassin, even a crazed one, could have escaped out the back entrance of the depository. For anyone interested, I will post photos of the area North of the building that reveals a wide-open space along the railroad where any assassin could have hidden until dusk or escaped undetected.
Can anyone, including Jean Davison, explain why Oswald ended up in Oak Cliff?
Jean, it is spectacular that a shooter could have escaped from TSBD. Can you imagine being that guy and having any reasonable expectation of escape. If shooting from the floor area and simply walking to a car and driving off, perhaps. But perched up 6 stories, pedestrians in all directions, employees in the building, and po po everywhere! Jonathon, ask yourself this; When do you hear the phrase, Remains at large?? I’m 54 and the ONLY time i hear that phrase is on the radio or TV news and the story is something akin to “theres been a robbery at the corner store and authorities at this time report the suspect remains at large”. It seldom if ever has any other use in everyday conversation that I know of. Now I’m still out on Tippit v Oswald but at 12:54 pm, ch 1 of the DPD dispatch log a question followed by a directive is radioed out to Tippit. “you are in Oak Cliff are you not?” and “you will be at large for any emergency”! Right about the time witnesses say Tippit sped out of the gas station area. Is it really too far fetched to view those two dispatch’s as code. Combined they inform the officer that the shooter managed to get through the SS, DPD, SO and all potential Rosie Greer’s that were scurrying about and it gives his location (Oak Cliff). Did Oswald have an address in the 500 block of E Tenth?
Jeff, just as an exercise, and this coming from a girl, might you consider deleting the photo of the ex-flame and see what happens? I may be completely wrong, and the resolution of the investigation into Kennedy’s murder may well rest with her, but I would be very curious to see where the story registers in a few weeks sans photo. Just a suggestion.
Leslie, along the same lines, I add the suggestion to drop the words “ex-flame.” They’re highly suggestive and inaccurate.
This is off-topic from the Top 5 but it’s something I’ve been wanting to bring up to the JFK assassination community.
When you look at the DPD’s notes from Oswald’s interrogation (http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340577/m1/7/?q=fair), a strange pattern emerges: he denies almost everything (Hidell ID, gun ownership, even where he lived in NO) but freely admit and often brings up his support of the FPCC on his own.
The mentions are:
o When asked about the FPCC membership card in his wallet, he freely admits he’s a member.
o When asked about Hidell, Oswald says it was a name he “picked up” in NO in his work for the FPCC.
o In a question about whether he was a communist, Oswald says he’s a Marxist and debated that point as a member of the FPCC on Bill Stuckey’s program in NO.
o When asked whether he was a member of the Communist Party he said no, but reiterated he was a member of the FPCC.
o When asked about Hidell again, he denied knowing anyone by that name but “reiterated his belief” in the cause of the FPCC.
Five times Oswald freely admits and even offers up his association and firm commitment to the FPCC. This is strange on several counts:
o If he’s attempting to deny his guilt as he did with all the other information he refused to confirm, claiming you’re a member of a government-deemed subversive organization probably doesn’t help your case.
o Why is Oswald offering up information on the FPCC that nobody even asks for — the strength of his commitment, his NO media coverage, etc.?
o With no recording or transcription of Oswald’s interrogation, did authorities add in the FPCC verbiage at a later date?
You either have to accept at face value that Oswald, despite not wanting to admit to almost any other fact of his life, was fully supportive of the Cuban cause.
Or you have to consider that Oswald, either well-trained or supposing he would be bailed out, was continuing to run an anti-FPCC operation in the midst of the aftermath of the assassination. The FPCC did close it’s doors within a month of assassination.
In PR terms, it looks like Oswald is doing something known as “bridging” — bringing the topic back to what you want your message to be no matter what the question.
BTW, when Oswald “reiterated his belief” in the FPCC for the last time, he was then readied for transfer to the county jail. His apparent undying devotion to the FPCC – an organization he had disobeyed several times and worked for on his own for a few short weeks in the summer — served as his last words.
Very informative post. Thanks. Some suspicious persons might suspect the FPCC was a cia operation.
Funny you should say that, Ronnie. By the time of Oswald’s interaction with the FPCC, it’s top leadership had been infiltrated by FBI informants.
When FPCC director V.T. Lee left NYC for a trip, he put the FPCC HQ in charge of Victor Vicente, an FBI informant who opened the offices to the FBI for a full day.(http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKfairplay.htm).
Oswald had contacted the FPCC around the same time, and may have even received a response from Vicente.
Oswald’s constant FPCC refrain during what one would assume would be his darkest hours makes no sense on any level:
o If he truly loves Castro’s revolution, why not just come out and say that? Why use the polite language of supporting the FPCC? And if you truly support Castro, would telling the authorities about your FPCC affiliation when you’re the accused in a president’s assassination really be construed as helping Castro? This also kills the theory Oswald was using his FPCC credentials to get a visa to Cuba — he ain’t going to Cuba from a Dallas jail.
o If you’re an intel agent running an operation, is discrediting the FPCC really your top priority at this point? Using the assassination to discredit the FPCC is like using a bazooka to kill a fly (the FPCC). If you’re trying to tie Castro to the assassination, why not come out and use his name?
o If you’re the lone assassin, and you’re obfuscating on every other aspect of your life, what does your constant embrace of the FPCC in front of the authorities get you? Does Oswald think he has to do this to stay alive? To demonstrate he was still staying with whatever mission he had been given, knowing his words would reach the highest levels of the government?
Oswald’s repeated reference to membership in FPCC is bizarre at first glance. It’s as if he’s saying to his captors, yes, I belong to an organization the FBI suspects of being a communist-front organization. Not very good strategy for a detainee who Captain Will Fritz believed was trained to resist interrogation.
I believe Oswald was sending a repeated signal to his handler(s) that he was sticking to his cover story and wasn’t going to spill the beans. I believe he expected his handler(s) to rescue him. Little did he understand the predicament he was in.
He understood some of it by Saturday night / Sunday morning but probably still maintained hope.
Maybe those words did reach the highest levels of government and they went unanswered. Or they were answered with a no response instruction.
I agree.
Jonathan do you think enough facts exist to validate the “Raleigh Call” that LHO purportedly made from the Dallas jail in an attempt to contact his intelligence handler, as first chronicled by Dr. Grover Proctor in 1980?
That’s why this site is by far the best discussion group there is. Regarding William Harvey, interesting to note that he was known to put away the booze pretty good, just like several of the other notables mentioned by Howard Hunt in his deathbed confession. When you combine friendships with hard drinking,,along with self preservation in the case of LBJ, and strong personal motivation, there’s nothing far fetched about their possible involvement.