Ralph CInque writes:
“I think Mr. Morley is being a bit dismissive of the George HW Bush claim. There really is very good correlation between the figure on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD and George HW Bush, including posturally. So, it isn’t just a facial match; it’s the body that matches as well. But, the case involves so much more than the matching images. It includes George HW Bush interacting with police that day, where he was briefly detained. And it includes all the fishy stuff he said afterwards which makes you realize he’s hiding something. And no, he was not a national figure at the time that most people would recognize. When he ran for President in 1979, millions of Americans hadn’t heard of him and didn’t recognize him.”
Morley responds:
Ralph: to say that you have “a body match” between the figure seen in front of TSBD and real George H.W. Bush is perhaps even more subjective (and uncorrobarable) than a putative face match. What is the measure of a “body match?” How is a non-match defined? The methodology feels vague at best.
Yes, it is curious that Bush once said he couldn’t recall where he was on November 22. But that is not a fact that indicates he was in Dealey Plaza when Kennedy was killed. Yes, his actions can be view as suspicious. But that is all the evidence warrants. To say he had something to hide may be true. That still doesn’t put him in Dealey Plaza.
To me the lack of corroborating eyewitness testimony is very telling. Not a single one of the hundreds of people who talked about their experience that day ever mentioned seeing George H.W. Bush, not even in retrospect.
Bush was a public figure in Texas. He was known in the oil industry as for his East Coast roots and Wall Street connections. He was known among Republicans as the chairman of the Harris County Republican party. He had made headlines as a candidate for the U.S. Senate. He had critciized JFK’s civil rights bill.
If he had been walking around Dealey Plaza you would thing at least one person would have said “George Bush was there” or “that fella running for U.S. Senate was standing by the wall.” There is no such testimony and never has been for 50 years. The GHWB theory has been circulating for years now and no one, to my knowledge, has come forward to say, “I saw him there.” Absent such corroboration, I see no reason to believe that Bush was in Dealey Plaza, much less than he had any role in the gunfire.
Tom
S.,
How about a simple survey? Four choices with a chance for a brief
explanation:
1 — GHW Bush heard nothing about 11-22 beforehand. (After doesn’t
count.)
2 — GHWB heard about possible plots through the grapevine before 11-22,
but had nothing actively to do with it.
3 — GHWB had a MINOR, compartmentalized part in 11-22. Anything from
arranging housing and/or transport for the out-of-towners to
distributing cash and/or equipment to observation at the scene, and
reporting to a small number of higher-ups.
4 — GHWB had a MAJOR part in the coup. Planning, logistics, paymaster,
supervision, running interference at the scene, and/or helping with the
cover-up.
I pick #4. My explanation, very briefly, will follow if you are interested.
So we have John Jovich writing 100 famous people in 1983 one of which is George H W Bush. He responds, he was in Tyler Texas campaigning. Then we have Kitty Kelly, of all people, as a source claiming he couldn’t remember where he was. Who should we believe? Maybe neither?
Just curious. Did Jovich write Reagan? He was more famous than the Veep at the time, after all he was a famous actor and the Pres.
I wonder if Kitty Kelly cited any source at all. Need time to dig.
Thanks Tom and Leslie in particular for taking this much deeper.
I had read a very little of Devine, Ulmer and Zeppa but your information takes the subject much further.
It was a publication that was targeting the younger generation. Just before his murder, John Jr. was in the middle of a expose’ about the real conspirators of his fathers murder. The word is he was going to name the names of those involved.
His murder? This is supposed to be JFKFacts. Tom, how do you allow this type of speculation and conjecture to appear here? Can the poster of this comment actually provide any evidence to support this “theory”? This type of nonsense belongs in the tin foil conspiracy sites and is unworthy of JFKFacts.
What I find curious about all of this about George Bush, is how no one seems to recall the Bush family ties to the Nazis before, during, and after WWII. Not just any old run of the mill fascists these guys, but full on Nazi collaborators.
Union Bank was charged with the Trading with the Enemy Act. George H. W. Bush’s father, Prescott Bush owned 1 share and was indicted as the Manager of the Union Banking Corporation! He had to plead Nolo Contendre.
The most curious of all of this affair is that absolutely nothing came of this scandal. Then comes Paper Clip… it too was papered over until it was “old news”.
Now Operation Zapata came to light, and George Bush’s Zapata Oil is brushed off as another “pure coincidence” … the coincidences of history stack up to the moon! And the incurious shrug their shoulders and look the other way.
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So you think the CIA routinely gives operations names that lead back to their key assets?
Do you agree with Prouty that George Bush named three ships?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/prouty.htm#ism5
“Do you agree with Prouty that George Bush named three ships?”
~McAdams
I agree with Prouty on this. He was in fact the contact officer that would procure military equipment from the services to make such available to CIA.
But no, I do not think that CIA routinely gives operations names that lead back to their key assets – but not all assets are as stupid as George Bush.
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I’m coming to a fuller understanding of the schism in JFKfacts.org comments threads.
The opinion/reply I quoted an excerpt of in the first sentence of the instant comment was submitted after I submitted this in a comment less than 24 hours ago. :
After reading the response Dr. McAdams pressed Willy to offer, “I agree with Prouty on this,” I went
off to find a suitable response, hopefully something to balance and inform.
and…..
I am not at all confident Oliver Stone vetted Jim Garrison and I am finding faith based assumptions are
routinely substituted for informed opinion regardless of whether most commenters accept or reject the findings and the integrity of the Warren Commission.
I feel uncomfortable and discouraged. Are commenters here, by and large, salespersons, JFKbeliefsales.org?
“…rather than making points using Prouty’s more speculative assertions on how the assassination was ordered…”~David Andrews
Of course this was not “speculation” by Prouty, it was something Prouty claims he actually participated in; procuring and delivering three ships to George Bush.
“He told me that one of the projects he did for the CIA was in 1961 to deliver US Navy ships from a Navy ship yard to the CIA agents in Guatemala planning the invasion of Cuba. He said he delivered three ships to a CIA agent named George Bush, who had the 3 ships painted to look like they were civilian ships.”
~Paul Kangas
Now one can say that Mr Kangas is lying, or that Col Prouty was lying, but one cannot say that he was “speculating”.
I will leave it to others to claim that Fletcher Prouty was a liar.
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I read what you are saying as, I have no independent evidence supporting Prouty’s claim, but I have faith in it because I hold Prouty in high regard. You’re not offering a link to Prouty making the specific claim, or even a direct quote attributed to Prouty. As I asked Roy yesterday, who are you presenting to, in your mind’s eye? My reaction to your “Kangas is lying,” “Prouty was a liar,” is that they are a defense, a set up. If Horne used similar set ups to attempt to support Z Film fakery arguments, your would shove them down his throat.
If I may and if I might make these few remarks to the forum:
There is a critical distinction between raw”data/datum” and “information”.
. . .
The term data refers to factual integers, especially that used for analysis and based on reasoning or calculation. Data itself has no meaning, but becomes information when it is interpreted. Information is a collection of facts or data that is communicated.
Data are the facts or details from which information is derived. Individual pieces of data rarely have inherent meaning in themselves.
Data — Information — Context
Meaning.
Data is raw, unorganized facts that need to be processed. Data can be something simple and seemingly random and useless until it is organized. When data is processed, organized, structured or presented in a given context so as to make it useful, it is called information.
Whether one likes it or not, what facts mean is to a certain extent, ALWAYS subjective; ultimately a matter of opinion. There is informed opinion, there is uninformed opinion, there is disinformed opinion.
And opinions my vary.
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Intrigue, complex and convoluted charades; these are the constructs of covert operations.
There are certain things that cannot be proven, other than accepting the word of a participant in the affair. Prouty was the contact officer that would procure military equipment from the services to make such available to CIA. That was one of his main jobs as liaison officer between CIA and the services.
McAdams tells us that the ARRB “looked into” these claims, and like all of the “official investigations” dismissed them.
Who am I presenting to? I suppose those with the imagination to grasp the hard realities of this world; in which the some real facts can never be known because they have been successfully concealed, destroyed, or lost by murdering the only witnesses to them.
What is a “military ship”? The real answer is ANY ship the military owns or controls. It doesn’t necessarily mean a ship built by or for the military.
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Prouty roles in or about The BOP Operation: 30 September 1960 Staff Assistant for Operations, Office of Deputy Assistant/ Secretary of Defence (Special Operations); 8 May 1961 member Special Operations/ J-5 Plans and Policy Directorate, Hq USAF, Special Control Group OJCS Washington DC Hq USAF.
Prouty military records are held at the National Personnel Records Centre (NPRC). There is a pdf file (of the information sought by Muckrock News circa Feb 2015 under foi) on the muckrock.com site.
muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/military-record-form1-fletcher-prouty-1-ron-hubbard-apologist-16212
And your evidence on this?
Col. L. Fletcher Prouty
Jan 24th 1917 – June 5th 2001
Col. Prouty spent 9 of his 23 year military career in the Pentagon (1955-1964): 2 years with the Secretary of Defense, 2 years with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and 5 years with Headquarters, U.S. Air Force. In 1955 he was appointed the first –> “Focal Point” officer between the CIA and the Air Force for Clandestine Operations <– per National Security Council Directive 5412. He was Briefing Officer for the Secretary of Defense (1960-1961), and for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
At times he would be called to meet with Allen Dulles and John Foster Dulles at their home on highly classified business. He was assigned to attend MKULTRA meetings. In this capacity Col. Prouty would be at the nerve center of the Military-Industrial Complex at a time unequalled in American History. He has written on these subjects, about the JFK assassination, the Cold War period, and Vietnamese warfare, and the existence of a "Secret Team". He backs up his his work with seldom seen or mentioned official documents – some never before released.
http://www.prouty.org/main.html
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“John Jr. kept to himself for the most part. The one thing he did that signed his death ticket was become publicly interested in who killed his father. JFK Jr. was publisher of a political magazine named GEORGE.
It was a publication that was targeting the younger generation. Just before his murder, John Jr. was in the middle of a expose’ about the real conspirators of his fathers murder. The word is he was going to name the names of those involved.
Even though most people are dead that were involved in the Presidents murder, there are still some around that have too much to lose to have the truth be told by a credible person like JFK. Jr. George Bush Sr., for one. Bush was very high ranking in the CIA at the time of the Presidents murder and without a doubt has first hand knowledge of that event in Dallas.”
Leads by Sherman Skolnick
http://theconspiracyzone.podcastpeople.com/posts/28152
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Willy,
Great link. I’ve never looked into the death of JFK, Jr. MORE Mossad connections, just like in just about every atrocity starting with 11-22-63. Sherman Skolnick is the MAN. (Rest in Peace, Brother Sherman.) I recently got into Sherm after reading St. John Hunt’s new book, Dorothy, The Murder of E. Howard Hunt’s Wife — Watergate’s Darkest Secret. If not for Skolnick, “the crippled Jew” as he called himself, the obvious sabotage of UAL Flight 553 12-8-1972 would never have been known. The fascists killed 12 Watergate witnesses and 33 others with that plane, downed into a Chicago neighborhood.
I just bought SS’s Ahead of the Parade; have browsed through it. Skolnick’s research, utterly fearless, is great, but from what I’ve seen, he often goes a step too far. For instance, in Appendix 4 of Dorothy, SS’s report “The Secret History of Airplane Sabotage,” he sees Tricky Nixon and J Edna Hoover as principals in JFKA, but skips past several of the obvious more direct culprits. Sherman hated him some RMN and JEH, but in a beautiful way. He was big against the Secret Political Police. He was on a mission.
When did he ever say that?
I think we need a solid primary source here.
By the 20th anniversary, Bush had his response, “in order.”
November 7, 1983 :
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1916&dat=19831107&id=xChJAAAAIBAJ&sjid=iQYNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1438,1274908&hl=en
The “problem” is not where Bush was on November 22. It is that he had so many he was so close to who
had close contact with DeMohrenschildt, and in one example, with both DeMohrenschildt and with Garry Coit,
Priscilla Johnson’s CIA contact. In 1940, Bush lived in the small A.U.V. secret society house on the campus of Phillips Andover – http://preservation.mhl.org/123-main-st
Along with Bush in residence, were DeMohrenschildt’s step-nephew and later business partner, the man who introduced DeMohrenschildt to Wynne Sharples, Edward Gordon Hooker. Bush escorted Hooker’s daughter down the wedding aisle in 1972, and “gave away” Susan B. Hooker to groom, Ames Braga, son of B. Rionda Braga.
Along with Bush and Hooker, also in residence was William B. Macomber, Jr., best man in the 1946 wedding of Bush’s sister, Nancy, and in the 1973 wedding of Thomas J. Devine. Devine, from 1944 to 1946, lived in the Sigma Chi fraternity house on the M.I.T. campus, with Priscilla’s future CIA handler, Garry Coit, and 16 other frat brothers. Devine and Coit attended Naval radio school at the same time in October, 1944.
On April 25, 1963, two weeks after the WC determined Oswald shot at Gen. Walker, DeMohrenschildt met with Thomas Devine, who was fronting for the CIA as an investment manager at Train, Cabot, Park Ave., NYC. Devine reported three other contacts with DeMohrenschildt by May 21, 1963, (see- http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=8627&relPageId=9 ) and was tasked by CIA’s C. Frank Stone, III (see- http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=64083&relPageId=2&search=nattily )
to learn all he could about George DeM. HSCA witness Joseph F. Dryer, Jr. claimed he held a separate meeting on April 25, 1963 with DeMohrenschildt and Clemard Charles, and that a CIA contact told Dryer that a secretary traveling in the U.S. with Clemard Charles was reporting to CIA.
Dryer’s brother and business partner happened to be a longtime classmate of Devine’s at a small private, K-12 school in Rochester, NY. Joan Mellen wrote extensively about Dryer in her recent book, “Our Man In Haiti,” and when I asked her if she was aware that Peter R. Dryer was Tom Devine’s schoolmate, she shared that Joseph F Dryer revealed to her only after her book went to publication, that he considered Devine his closest friend in Rochester.
CIA’s Gale Allen reported that Devine had “read in,” Bush on detail related to CIA Op Wubriny, referred to in Devine’s reporting relating to his contacts with DeMohrenschildt. see- http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=12758&relPageId=2
John McAdams is aware (has been presented with) all of the details above, but you will never read any mention of them on his JFK Assassination website. He will remind readers that commenter Leslie Sharp and I
are misled by connections that McAdams weighs as feather-light.
see-
https://jfkfacts.org/assassination/comment-of-the-week-10/#comment-848297
and
https://jfkfacts.org/assassination/experts/from-the-inbox-incorrect-commenters-and-911-theories/#comment-443128
So there is a link from Demohrenschild to Bush? Other than the Dallas Petroleum Club?
And DeM’s letter to Bush in 76 or 77 (?) asking for help getting the spook’s off his back?
You didn’t respond to my question.
Does anybody have a real source for the “Bush didn’t know where he was” supposed fact?
John McAdams, I proved it is a deception….attributed to Kitty Kelly, unless she published her Bush biography
before his reply in 1983. You don’t have to rub their noses in it, they’re going to believe Russ Baker quoting Kitty Kelly, and even more so, if you’re saying the opposite. The problem you bring here is you act as if you discern no difference between Jeff Morley, Tom S., and Ralph Cinque. If it works for you, have at it, but nothing changes. The “serious people” have your back. They interpret the bible “literally,” whatever that means, and the WC, HSCA, and Gamaliel@wikipedia.org got it right. But Bush did lecture conspiracy theorists at Jerry Ford’s funeral, and assured us all that Jerry was as good as his word.
Then, there is this, and I already explained about Devine, but why did Billy Lord mention Bemis in his 1977 letter to President Carter?
See- https://jfkfacts.org/assassination/comment-of-the-week-9/#comment-842816
But you would prefer to ignore what I post and keep asking the question I already answered, with documentation….
Bush recalled in 1983 where he was when he heard JFK had been shot in Dallas. Isn’t it at all odd that Bush is naming two guys in 1975 who were two of three meeting to discuss Bush’s political future, and one was a CIA agent interacting with George DeMohrenschildt two weeks after you believe Oswald shot at Gen. Walker, and the other is Fitzgerald Bemiss, a name associated with leaning on Billy Lord at a luncheon meeting insisted on by Henry Hurt, who happened to be the son-in-law of Langbourne Williams’s brother?
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/09/14/obituaries/langbourne-williams-is-dead-retired-businessman-was-91.html
I know nothing sinister is permitted in your consideration of anything, but……
Who can forget Photon’s reaction to “all this?”
That’s nice, but I didn’t see that in your post.
An actually citation to Kitty Kelly would be nice, even if the sound judgment is that her claim I bogus.
Pursuing our way up the food chain, while Devine et al are significant links, we eventually arrive at the Liedtkes who were early financial investors of George H. W. Bush’s Midland TX oil drilling operation along with Uncle George Walker and RH Gow. One of the Liedtke brothers is identified in the Watergate scandal as having carried the ‘water’ meaning the check to those involved in the break in, and both Liedtke brothers capitalized on their family credibility within the oil industry thru their father’s heavy investment with Gulf Oil Corp, Pennsylvania.
In the months prior to Kennedy traveling to Texas to campaign for a second term, a law suit involving accusations of an oil monopoly had culminated in Oklahoma with Tulsa Judge Royce Savage determining that essentially ‘there was no case’, after which he resigned his Federal judgeship and joined the legal counsel of Gulf Oil Corporation, defendants in that very lawsuit. President Kennedy’s reaction: “The reason judges are appointed for life is so that there can . . . be no actual improprieties and no appearance of impropriety . .. I don’t think that anyone can accept a Federal judgeship unless prepared to fill it for life because I think the maintenance of integrity of the Judiciary is so important” . . .
http://www.10thcircuithistory.org/s/Savage_Bio.pdf
So you think this is sinister?
You could find something equally “sinister” about essentially everybody who had any importance at all in Texas politics in that era.
Has it ever occurred to you that if I took all your posts, and made a list of all the people whom you think have a sinister connection to somebody else you think is sinister, the list would come to several thousand people?
Dr. McAdams,
I find your debunking attempts, vs. Photon’s, a study in contrasts. Whatever works for you, I guess.
As you can see, his ploy was an irrelevant diversion, “Teach what?” and a false assumption, that Billy Lord was describing his boss’s recently deceased father, and as you did, Photon inferred that my presentation was incompetent, incomplete, “Tom S. is weak minded.” Photon pressed the false assumption gambit in several ways in several additional comments, implying that details I present are not well supported, accurate, or thought through. As I experienced later when Photon reacted to background details of David Baldwin, disproving all of his objections elicits no reaction, certainly no concession.
I discipline myself in that my claims and observations are well supported. Why would Billy Lord send a letter to President Carter just after George Bush is no longer DCI, and Ford is no longer POTUS? Was it simply to make up and send out a tall tail about a “Jim Beamis?”
[PDF]Item 01.pdf
Forgive me, but my expectation of a reasonable person is if they were actually considering what I presented and responding to it, they might ask, “why do you think “Jim Beamis” was Bush’s extremely close friend and close political advisor, Gerry Bemiss?
continued
Continued from my last comment-
Sinister is the wrong word. The reasonable description is that it is “too much.” Consider that Bush’s
own book describes a meeting initiated by three close friends in 1975 to assess his future political prospects. One of the three had been assigned by the CIA to monitor DeMohrenschildt, commencing two weeks after the Gen. Walker shooting attempt, and it was a component of a CIA Op this friend of Bush later said Bush was partially read into, and a second friend of the three, Gerry Bemiss, matches Billy Lord’s 1977 description.
Bush never explained these details associated with two of his friends, Devine and Bemiss, despite DeMohrenschildt and Lord both being acquainted with “that little nobody,” Oswald. But Bush did have this to say.:
John,
Why I could care less about any Bush and what they did or did not do, I cannot help but notice that you have been oddly silent about Ford and his buddies with the Rockefeller report.
Tell me, John, now that you KNOW that Ford spoon fed the FBI during the WC and then changed—read lied—about his own investigation into the CIA, is he still the greatest president the US has ever had, like you once believed?
Ford fed information to the FBI.
Earl Warren shared information with Drew Pearson.
Lots of White House staffers in numerous administrations have shared information with Bob Woodward.
You are being silly huffing and puffing about this
Concealing information is not lying. Your rhetorical escalation harms your credibility.
Where did you get that?
Do you think you can just make up things and attribute them to me?
Ford was not even the greatest president in the last 50 years. Ronald Reagan was.
Irresponsible statements like that destroy your credibility.
John McAdams,
Your words:
“Concealing information is not lying.”
WHAT??????????
By the way, your sentence would be a GREAT opening line of the 888 page Warren Report!
How about this:
“The official results of the investigation of the death of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, wherein these pages concealing information is not lying.”
John,
Why, I just checked the Ford thread and there is not ONE response from you.
Did I miss it?
Or, do you now believe what most people already knew on this site?
That Gerald Ford was a liar, a career politician, and a man who would sell his soul for a career in Washington?
Your silence speaks volumes, John.
Since the Rockefeller Commission was supposed to deal with “CIA Activities in the United States” I don’t see how foreign activities would be relevant.
It was the Church Committee that dealt with them.
As usual, you don’t want to talk about the assassination, you only want to talk about whom you hate.
I don’t actually care whom you hate. Stew in your own hatred.
John,
I don’t care a whit about my credibility. Want to know why, John? I have never lied to the American people as Gerald Ford did on NUMEROUS occasions. You can talk about “hatred” all you want, but know this. I have had the same job, in education, like yourself, for 25 years. I have not had ANY trouble at my my place of employment and I have been at the same school for all 25 years. Can you say the same thing about your time at Marquette?
Now, back to your avoidance of Jerry Ford and his lying. Isn’t this there same man who moved the back wound up to the neck area for “clarification?” That Jerry Ford? The same Ford who changed the Rockefeller report? Let me guess—you have NO problem with the fact that Ford changed the Rockefeller report? That used to be called PERJURY in this country, John.
Again, YOU do not want to discuss anything OUTSIDE of the WR. Ford lied during the Commission—please see Tom S. and his briefcase meeting with the thugs at the FBI. Also see Ford’s removal of Olney before the start of the commission. Once again, John, the “facts” as you call them, were facts gathered by liars and men of deceit.
How has that worked out so far, John?
Care to comment as to why you did not post on the Ford thread?
Mr. McAdams,
What were you saying about the Church Committee?
“President Ford passed investigative materials concerning assassinations along to the Church Committee of the United States Senate and then attempted—but failed—to suppress the Church Committee’s report as well.”
Oops, I guess Jerry could not help himself from lying and lying and lying…
That SURE convinces me that Ford did honest investigating during the WC?
You?
Mr. McAdam,
Since you chose not to respond to Tom S’s wonderful questions on the Ford thread, I have tried to help you by moving them here:
“….or is it that a cover up/limited hang out actually took place, set up at the behest of President Ford, even as he was describing to the American people the appointment of Rockefeller to “head” a fact finding commission, as an executive action leading to accountability and reform.
Does this not strike you as contemptible and hyper cynical, considering Ford spied on the WC for the FBI, was appointed rather than elected VPOTUS by a soon to be resigned in disgrace POTUS, who Ford then succeeded as POTUS and swiftly pardoned, and then appointed Rockefeller as VPOTUS, and the two embarked on the Rockefeller Commission “investigation,” actually shielding the CIA from disclosure and accountability?
You have a similar non-reaction to the CIA’s Joannides deception, foisted on the HSCA, yet you assign substantial weight to the “findings” of the WC and HSCA. How do you know to agree with those findings, especially as resolutely and consistently as you indicate in your comments? I ask because you seemed to assign little or no weight/concern to the Rockefeller Commission cover up and its direction/deception, or to the Joannides deception. Are your reactions, indicated in your last comment to mean, “hey let’s make the best of it,” one step above “nothing to see here,” consistent with your opinions of WCR and HSCA reporting generally, or are they reasonable with regard to the intentional damage done by Ford from late 1963, and by the CIA? IOW, how can you trust much of anything Ford did or said as POTUS, or the CIA told the WC or the HSCA or form strong conclusions?”
Care to comment on anything in Tom’s post, John?
After all, this is one of the most prominent men in terms of attendance during the WC’s tenure.
Do you wonder if he might have hidden any information during the WC, if he was willing to lie about the findings concerning the commission he appointed as president?
You mean the “limited hangout” stuff?
That’s the buff fallback. First they say that security agencies are concealing all kinds of stuff. Then when things come out, it’s a “limited hangout.”
What they can never admit is that the “evidence” of conspiracy to kill Kennedy simply doesn’t exist.
And McAdams never answered my question:
“of the CIA implies” a staff employee.”~McAdams
What evidence do you have for this assertion? I think Mr J Edgar Hooover of the FBI would consider himself more than a simple staff employee.
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Look at the context of the memo:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Bush_Sr%2C_JFK_-_J_Edgar_Hoover_memo_2.jpg
Reports like the one in question, from Cubans in Florida, were not referred to CIA assets or sources in Texas.
They were referred to desk officers for evaluation.
“Look at the context of the memo”~McAdams
I have seen that memo “professor”, there is absolutely nothing in the “context” that proves your assumption that George Bush was a “staff employee”.
There is nothing that you won’t attempt to spin away as ‘pure coincidence’ is there McAdams?
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No, Tom, I mostly don’t read your long tedious posts about how somebody was connected with somebody who was in somebody’s wedding in 1954 and that must be sinister, even though neither of the people you connect had anything to do with the Kennedy assassination.
You never explain how what you have found is sinister. You somehow think it is, but normal sensible people don’t have that reaction.
Mr. McAdams,
Your words:
“but normal sensible people don’t have that reaction.”
My words:
Normal, sensible people also don’t say, as you did recently,”concealing information is not lying.”
Yes, John, it is. In the investigation of the death of a president, or anyone for that matter, ALL information SHOULD be revealed. Only in this instance can someone, Gerald Ford, LIE to the country and mislead the country and escape perjury and jail time.
If you really want a complete investigation, and I agree with Mr. Gunn that it is far TOO late for that to ever happen, then ALL of the key people—Ford, Dulles, Angleton, Helms—should have been questioned with the threat of perjury charges on the table. Of course, that did not, and will not ever happen. So you are free to tout the “evidence,” secure in the fact that Ford lied, and Dulles lied, and Helms lied, and no one will ever hold them accountable.
By the way, John, when you read the thread about Ford lying and hiding information with the Rockefeller Commission, did that change your mind at all about Ford’s credibility? Because, Jean Hill is hammered by you folks everyday for embellishing her story (lying) and she had a very small part in the investigation. However, one of the Commission’s most prominent members is caught LYING to his own selected commission and your only response is “concealing information is not lying.”
By the way, I don’t find Tom S’s posts to be tedious, but informative. I find that he does what the Warren Commission did NOT want to do, which is to pursue every lead and angle. Obviously you do not, because following leads could cause Mr. Ford or Mr. Dulles to reveal their secrets, which could lead your belief in their infallibility to be shattered. After all, you have stated that Ford was absolutely correct to pardon Nixon for his sins.
So for me, I appreciate Tom and all he does. He is a honest researcher, not content to take the words of liars, or men “who concealed information but did not lie.”
P.S.
You should read the following as well, right through the comments section:
http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/1811
Russ Baker’s “Family Of Secrets” places Bush in Tyler, Texas at the time of the shooting, speaking to about 100 Kiwanis Club members. That’s a pretty solid alibi. Baker’s book does note a few oddities surrounding this – including a strained letter written by Barbra Bush, less than forthright recollections, and Bush’s strange identification of a possible suspect to the FBI. The reference to “George Bush of the CIA” in a Hoover memoranda, discovered by Joseph McBride, has never been adequately explained. That clue is far more enticing than the iffy photo IDs from Dealey Plaza.
It is enticing information. How could GHW Bush not remember where he was at the time of the Assassination? How could he not remember that on the same day (claiming to be calling from Tyler, 1.45 pm) he called the FBI in Houston to report an unlikely man (James Parrot) as a possible suspect, and allegedly arranged for a another staff member (Kearney Reynolds) to visit Parrot’s address (7 minutes after the assassination became public knowledge) – to arrange a double alibi? Both Parrot and Kearney were staff members of the Harris County Republican Party of which Bush was chairman.
In the phone call to the FBI, Bush claimed to be calling from Tyler, and that he would be shortly (early afternoon) travelling to Dallas, and would stay the evening at Dallas.
It is corroborated that Bush spoke at an AAODC gathering in Dallas on the evening of 21 November 1963 and stayed at the Sheraton hotel, Dallas that evening.
Early afternoon 22 November 1963 the Bush’s boarded a (Joe Zeppa) plane to Dallas, then shortly after arrival boarded a commercial flight to Houston.
It must be asked, was Bush attempting to obscure the fact he was in Dallas the night before the assassination (as well as the afternoon of the 22 November 1963) in addition to creating alibi’s (as a means of confusing the trail of his whereabouts)?
Enticing eh. A story was kicked around I want to say about 3 years ago here or if not on the edu forum relating to this. It involved a “manager” (?) at Redbird airport about 10 miles South of Dealy Plaza reporting after the Assassination a plane kept idling during in and taking off shortly afterward when a passenger arrived.
If I remember right the “manager” changed his story or refused to talk later. This part was told in a book or two the names of which escape me, so how well documented I can’t say at the moment.
The speculation was based on the facts Bush was a WWII fighter pilot and it’s 98 miles from Dallas to Tyler.
I don’t remember how fast a top of the line small plane could fly in 1963. But 200 mph would be 30 minutes.
The question was could Bush have made it from Dealy Plaza after the Assassination to the Kiwanis Club in Tyler before JFK’s death was announced. I do remember he stared speaking just a few minutes before it was.
Your right, the information is enticing.
I’ll look through my books for info on the Red Bird part.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18944
http://www.ctka.net/2013/Hancock_Redbird.html
Then there is this.
http://www.madcowprod.com/2013/11/20/barry-seal-the-cias-secret-camp-in-lacombe-the-jfk-assassination/
Nothing about what I mentioned in an initial web search except the guy at Red Bird and the running plane.
January’s and Gaudin’s accounts are interesting. It is astonishing how some leads were not seriously followed up by the FBI, and or how certain witness’ account’s were inaccurately recorded by intelligence agencies in respect of the assassination.
Ronnie,
Great links. Poppy Bush had plenty of time to oversee the Big Event, be rousted from Dal-Tex area and be questioned by police, let go, and fly from Red Bird to Tyler. He wasn’t seen there at the Tyler Kiwanis meeting until after 1:30. At their disposal, the Bushes had the plane of “Zeppo”, as Babs called him in humorous homage to the Marx brother.
Roy,
The details in my last comment compete with those in yours. They cannot strengthen what you have presented, but what effect does your comment have on the impressions of a reasonable person who reads both of our comments? IOW, do you think your comment enhances the impression of my comment, or of JFKfacts.org, generally? This is the question I have to struggle with at least several times a day. I’ve been given the authority to filter the comments to either fit closely with the tenor and thoughfulness of Jeff’s article selections, or to let as many commenters as possible have a voice on JFKfacts.org.
I know from experience that these can be contrary goals. If this website includes a large number of comments presenting details and opinions neither Jeff or I would ever post ourselves because they are sensational, unsubstantiated, impossible to prove, or, all three, does it really matter if we’ve provided a place to submit such comments? Are there not a lot of web pages where, “Poppy Bush had plenty of time,” supported by little or no evidence, can already be read? Consider that the article above these comments is intended to counter Ralph Cinque’s unsupported opinion.
Roy, ‘At their disposal, the Bushes had the plane of “Zeppo”, as Babs called him in humorous homage to the Marx brother.’
I speculate that Barbara’s copy editor failed to catch the type-o. There is little to compare Zeppa and his crowd with the Marx rot hers. Joe Zeppa was a well known independent oilman with ties to national oil concerns whose offices were located at 630 Fifth Ave. Rockefeller Plaza where Allen Dulles moved in post-removal from the CIA. Dan Ulmer, brother of former CIA Chief of Station Al Ulmer with a deep history in Athens lived in Tyler, and according to Barbara they were all gathered for a visit the week prior to the assassination in Tyler. Focus on young George HW Bush is at the expense of pursuing the significant role in the MIC of his friends, Joe Zeppa and the Ulmers.
https://jfkfacts.org/assassination/experts/speaking-bluntly-a-conversation-with-a-leading-jfk-researcher/
“Aside from the controversy over whether or not the Lee Harvey Oswald arrested in the Texas Theatre is the same LHO alleged to have been in MC, I want to pursue Win Scott. We know that Scott was Chief of Station, and thanks to Mr. Morley, we also know that on retirement he went into ‘private’ business with Al Ulmer, a consultant firm called Diversified Corporate Services (the operative word being “corporate” imv). What is not widely reported is Al Ulmer’s close friendship with George H.W. Bush, a friendship that was in play the week of the assassination when the Ulmer’s and Bush’s were catching up in Tyler, Texas. Fellow Tylerites included Joe Zeppa who according to Barbara years later, would provide his plane for she and George to arrive at Love Field in time to catch a commercial flight home to Houston just hours after the assassination. Al Ulmer had “left the CIA” the year before to join the Niarchos Greek shipping operation in London. Ulmer had continued cutting his teeth with the CIA in the early 50’s in Athens, Greece, encountering in the process Frank Wisner and Tom Karamessines (Greek heritage). George Joannides, a native of Athens, was recruited into the CIA in 1951′ . . . “We went all over the world and we DID WHAT WE WANTED,” (emphasis mine) said Al Ulmer, the C.I.A.’s Far East division chief in the 1950s. “God, we had fun.” – Tim Weiner, “Legacy of Ashes”’ — Leslie Sharp
From Weiner’s book we see Al Ulmer in the shadows in Indonesia as early as 1957: . . . .Ulmer said in an interview that he knew next to nothing about Indonesia when he took over the division. But he had the full faith and trust of Allen Dulles. And he remembered vividly a conversation with Frank Wisner at the end of 1956, just before Wisner’s breakdown. He recalled Wisner saying it was time to turn up the heat on Sukarno . . . The White House and the CIA sent emissaries to Jakarta to assess the situation. Allen Dulles dispatched Al Ulmer . . . Al Ulmer believed that he had to find the strongest anti-communist forces in Indonesia and support them with guns and money — Tim Weiner, “Legacy of Ashes”
And the rest is history — Leslie Sharp
Copy of Prescott Bush 1942 Indictment Under Trading With the Enemy Act:
http://www.mbpolitics.com/Bush2000/VestingDetail.htm
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I’m not trying to support a theory that Bush was in Dealy Plaza. As has been pointed out he had started his 1964 campaign for the US Congress in September 1963. I don’t know if his picture had been in the paper or TV. But in republican right wing Dallas I wouldn’t think he would take the chance of being recognized at the assassination of the President IF he had foreknowledge.
However in conjunction with the affiliations pointed out by Leslie and his role in Operation 40 the whole situation is still fishy smelling. Some insinuate a hit team was assembled by David Morales from the members of Operation 40.
Bush’s role as a recruiter and solicitor / funnel-er of funds for it do tend to incriminate him in terms of possible fore knowledge along with his forgetfulness and never addressing the subject in his books.
His position as a republican Texas oil man at the time suggest he was probably not dismayed by JFK’s demise. JFK’s proposed elimination of the Oil Depletion Allowance was gone with his death, Johnson of course supported it. Combined with JFK’s positions on Cuba, Castro, the USSR, Communism and other things he may not have been displeased.
Further, his crony and partner in business and operation 40 Jack Crichton, running for Governor in 64 against John Connally was there. In the pilot car for the parade, which stopped briefly at the intersection of Houston and Elm.
http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKoperation40.htm
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5861
Challenge: find the name Jeff Morley on page 2 of the second link.
For further reading on Operation 40 see Joseph McBrides Into the Nightmare, multiple references in Larry Hancock’s Someone Would Have Talked or the other books referenced by Mr. Simkin.
I meant Jack Crichton, of Dallas. Home to Bruce Alger in 1963.
http://spartacus-educational.com/MDcrichton.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/us/politics/bruce-alger-former-congressman-whose-protest-against-lyndon-johnson-backfired-dies-at-96.html
Leslie,
That’s a goldmine of info, your post above, 3/6 @ 6:47p. IMO all more evidence that GHWB was a major player in the Big Event. I vote for planner, observer, overseer, paymaster.
First a quibble — you write that Barbara’s editor failed to catch the typo “Zeppo” for Zeppa. I believe she wrote the Marx bro way in a couple letters and usually said it in conversation. Because she thought it was cute, funny in her dumb Tex-American jingoistic way.
That oilman Joe Zeppa had offices in the same Fifth Avenue NYC building as “retired” Allen Dulles, the International Bldg — WOW! Small world for The Elite.
That the Bushes and the Ulmers were gathered FOR A WEEK before 11-22 down the road in Tyler — not too suspicious! And GHW Bush was booked into the big Dallas hotel for much of that time, the hotel where LHO met with David Atlee Philips and Antonio Veciana.
That Al Ulmer was all over the ultra-right: post-CIA, 1962, with the Greek shipping magnate Niarchos, old buds with Tom Karamessines, Frank Wisner, Joe Zeppa. There is no fascist like a Greek fascist; they were the first to use napalm B on civilians at the end of WW II in the Greek “Civil War”, with US help of course.
Most importantly, that Al Ulmer was in Indonesia as early as 1957 at the behest of A Dulles, though AU didn’t know Indonesia from Indiana or amnesia. He was there to subvert Sukarno, who was for the people, not the European and American oligarchs who wanted to keep plundering the world’s richest gem mines. Ulmer, GHW Bush’s good buddy, found the strongest “anti-commies” (read: Fascists), and supplied them with guns and money. He laid the groundwork for when we got rid of JFK and the Indonesian genocide could proceed unhindered.
Leslie, thanks for all that good info and the link to the JFK Facts topic “Speaking Bluntly: a conversation with a leading JFK researcher.” All good post on that topic, especially yours.
Roy,
This is not “that kind” of comment site. BTW, Wisner was suffering from mental illness and left the CIA in 1962.
Can you understand the difference between what is presented in my comment, vs. yours, or why I think your comment details are actually counterproductive? Is your purpose to convince or enlighten other conspiracy theorists or to influence “the record?” “The record,” is what is permissible to cite in news reporting, wikipedia articles, academic papers, non-fiction book notes…. links to NARA document pages at Maryferrell.org, or aarclibrary.org/,
regularly published college newspapers, other student publications….example:
The details in my comment are presented and supported by links to primary sources of the level I just presented
examples of. A reasonable person would not read my comment and wonder, “who does this writer expect is his audience or expect to influence,” as I did while reading your comment details in this thread.
I am assuming visitors who may or may not become regular readers of JFKfacts.org articles and comments are drawn here seeking facts. Roy, do you understand what I am attempting to tell you? Can you point to details in your comments you think best support your credibility? Aren’t we what we post? I try to present in a way that does not rule out the possibility of drawing out a Bush spokesperson to respond, as Joe Mcbride did in 1988. What have you put in a comment in this thread that you think has the potential to prompt a Bush associated response?
I think Jeff expects commenters to use this example as a benchmark….at least to keep it in mind…..
The assessment of a Jewish organization that would not hesitate to call out Nazi sympathy, if it existed:
http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/cyber-safety/c/internet-rumors/prescott-bushs-alleged-nazi.html
Bush’s firm was not trading with the enemy. They had some assets that belonged to Germany, but of course could not send them to Germany in wartime.
But neither could they keep them. So the U.S. government seized them.
‘J. Hugh Liedtke, the longtime head of the Pennzoil Company who began his career by drilling scores of consecutive successful oil wells with his partner, George H. W. Bush, and went on to win billions of dollars from Texaco in a dramatic legal battle, died on Friday in Houston. He was 81. . . . In 1953, the brothers joined with Mr. Bush [along with John Overby and Thomas Devine] to form the Zapata Petroleum Corporation. They drilled a legendary string of 127 oil wells in the sagebrush of West Texas without one dry hole. The Liedtkes severed their business ties with the future president in 1955 but remained friends. Mr. Bush went on to own and operate offshore drilling rigs.’ (note: the Liedtke’s remained on the board of Zapata for several years)
Also from this obit: ‘John Hugh Liedtke was born on Feb. 10, 1922, in Tulsa, where his father was a lawyer for the Gulf Oil Corporation.’ Judge William Liedtke was instrumental in developing laws for the oil industry in Oklahoma and left his judgeship to become legal counsel to Gulf Oil Corporation (as did Federal Judge Royce Savage after dismissing ‘The Alexandria Case’ – involving 29 US oil companies accused of price fixing . . . inexplicably the case was transferred to Tulsa where Savage dismissed all charges and one year later joined Gulf Oil. — John M. Blair, “Control of Oil”)
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/01/business/j-hugh-liedtke-81-oilman-who-bested-texaco-in-court.html
J.Hughe Liedtke’s brother William C. Liedtke:
‘President Bush and his wife, Barbara, said in a statement on Saturday that they were “deeply saddened at the loss of our very dear and close friend.”‘
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/05/obituaries/w-c-liedtke-66-a-pennzoil-founder-and-friend-of-bush.html
According to Russ Baker, ‘Family of Secrets’, Wm. C. “Bill” Liedtke promoted his dear friend George HW Bush with Nixon as an ideal running mate; Bill was named in the Watergate investigation as having been involved in transfer of Nixon political funds that ended up in the bank account of Watergate burglar/CIA undercover operative Bernard Barker.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1144&dat=19720913&id=rVQqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=SFMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7502,4542073&hl=en
https://news.google.com/newspapersnid=1310&dat=19720918&id=st1VAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LuEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6214,4452235&hl=en
** https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/bernard-l-barker-92-watergate-burglar-is-dead/2012/05/31/gJQAwiLtFV_story.html
Emblematic of the continued close personal and political ties that W.C. Liedtke shared with the George HW Bush family until his death:
‘ . . . He also served as finance chair for the Bush-Quayle campaign of 1988[citation needed] His son, William C. Liedtke III was nominated by President Bush in May 1992 for a seat on the five-member Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.[10]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Liedtke
From the article you cited:
I think you are ignoring the following:
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Thyssen-family
For an actual deep analysis of the issues of the Nazi-American Money Plot, 1933-1949, I would suggest reading TRADING WITH THE ENEMY by Charles Highham.
Other books in that vein are:
BITTER SCENT by Michael Bar-Zohar
THE CRIME AND PUNISHMENT OF I.G. FARBIN by Joseph Borkin
BLOWBACK by Christopher Simpson
WALL STREET and THE RISE OF HITLER by Antony Sutton
Available on PDF for free at:
https://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sutton_Wall_Street_and_Hitler.pdf
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And how was it “strange?”
George H.W. Bush was not “with the CIA” in 1963. Even if you can produce evidence that he cooperated with the CIA in some way, “of the CIA implies” a staff employee.
“of the CIA implies” a staff employee.”~McAdams
What evidence do you have for this assertion?
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I’d have to say that since the ‘other’ George Bush of the CIA ruled himself out as the other possible “George Bush of the CIA” referred to, that leaves one with no other choice than to understand they were referring to G.H.W. Bush.
That’s altogether aside from the links involved throughout the whole BoP, Operation Zapata, Zapata Oil, Hughes-Nixon and Cay Sal Bank and I could go on.
So the CIA gets intelligence from the FBI, and instead of giving it to a desk officer to evaluate, they give it to an oil executive in Texas?
You really believe that?
And how was Bush involved with the Bay of Pigs?
John…That is not the crux of the point I was making, which I believe is rather obvious.
However, where did I say anything about CIA getting intel from the FBI…?
Are you trying to put words in my mouth by redirecting the issue??
“So the CIA gets intelligence from the FBI, and instead of giving it to a desk officer to evaluate, they give it to an oil executive in Texas?
You really believe that?”~McAdams
I think Bush was in the CIA as far back as that.
All CIA agents have cover of one form or another.
Yes, I think Bush was involved in running guns & equipment to the Anti-Castro Cubans at that time. And I do think he was involved or had foreknowledge of the assassination of JFK.
Your attempt to distance the elder Bush, Harriman, and Dulles from the Nazis, is incompatible with the historic record.
\\][//
Did you not know that was the context of “George Bush of the CIA?”
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Bush_Sr%2C_JFK_-_J_Edgar_Hoover_memo_2.jpg
That’s what happens to you when you just accept conspiracy book factoids.
No John, that is not at all what I am implying, nor do I understand your reasoning in arriving at your first and second questions.
I am saying that there can only be one George Bush of the CIA, as the only alternative excluded himself from possibly being such person.
Unless you have some evidence to the contrary…?
But intelligence from the FBI to the CIA would not have been turned over to an oil company executive in Texas to evaluate.
It would have been turned over to a desk officer.
And there is no evidence that George H.W. Bush had any connection with the CIA in 1963.
‘But intelligence from the FBI to the CIA would not have been turned over to an oil company executive in Texas to evaluate. . . . It would have been turned over to a desk officer.’
I agree John, you’ve exposed a technicality – how could a young, scrappy oil company executive with a history in West Texas oil drilling be given intelligence data to evaluate when in fact that data would have been turned over to a desk officer within the CIA – what a ludicrous scenario – until one factors in the family history of George HW Bush. How naive do you think those who follow this site are?
The distraction is and has been for decades the obsession with government acronyms including ‘FBI’ and ‘CIA’ that provide you and those who align with your defence of the WCR (here are the rules of how these documents are generated) with an escape hatch while serving others who are comfortable with broad generalizations to explain the coup d’etat of 11.22.63. You apply those acronyms as liberally as do those who challenge the Warren Commission Report conclusion, when in fact THE FBI and THE CIA and THE MIC mean absolutely nothing to anyone seriously considering who authorized and then covered up the assassination, let alone the crossroads of those who planned and executed the coup on their behalf. The acronyms have mesmerized thousands upon thousands of people for thousands and thousands of hours including a large portion on this particular site. We track George HW Bush and his CIA connections as if that is going to expose the conspiracy? I suggest that eventually GHW Bush became a patsy in and of himself.
Leslie, 3/7, 9:27, a willing patsy?
Mr. McAdams, you wrote:
Bush’s firm was not trading with the enemy. They had some assets that belonged to Germany, but of course could not send them to Germany in wartime.
Perhaps this might help illuminate the subject matter:
http://www.nokilling.org/PROSECUTOR.htm
Comments..?
It’s pretty disappointing that Mr. Morley thinks it’s necessary to respond to this absurdity.
So, the question needs to be asked: Is this a sober and serious JFK assassination website or will it allow far fetched and ridiculous theories to be put forward? And then, even worse, addressed?
I share your concerns with regards to far fetched and ridiculous theories.
However, this site, in my opinion, needs to be a site where ALL theories can be put forward and discussed in a respectful and rational way.
That is what this site achieves, and that is what makes it one of the best JFK sites there is.
I have a thought to add on this. If George H. W. Bush WAS involved in some way with the JFK assassination, why would he want to go out in the daylight where the shooting happened at Dealey, thus unnecessarily drawing perhaps some suspicion in the future that he wouldn’t want or need? It doesn’t make sense. I still haven’t ruled out the possibility that he was involved in some way, maybe through the CIA, or through his oil business connections, or political connections at that time. I read somewhere that when Bush became director at CIA, one of the things he did was ask to look at the JFK assassination files they had. Back in the seventies, as the House Select Committee was getting ready to reopen the case, the JFK assassination was a hot topic. Certainly it was hot at Langley, and viewed in retrospect with regard to Joannides and the sealed files, probably still is over there.
Putting Bush in Dealey Plaza seems a bit far fetched (not impossible, mind you). But far fetched. The one figure I’ve always wondered about is Ed Lansdale. Anybody know much about him?