Doug Horne, former Chief Analyst for Military Records for the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB), writes with a comment/correction on our Oct. 19 story, “Enhanced Air Force One tapes capture a top general’s response to JFK’s murder.”
“There is an inaccuracy in this article, and it appears significant to me. It needs to be corrected.
Where was Curtis LeMay on the day JFK died?
“While General LeMay’s most recent biographer claims he was hunting in Michigan when the assassination occurred, he clearly was not.
“The ‘Chuck Holmes’ Air Force logbook from Andrews AFB obtained by the ARRB reveals that LeMay was in Toronto, in Canada, on the day of the assassination—not in Michigan. The logbook reveals that the flight dispatched to pick him up was originally sent to Toronto, not to any location in Michigan.
“While en route to Canada, the VIP flight was diverted to Wiarton (pronounced “wire-ton”), a different Canadian site, which Bill Kelly’s research has revealed was a commando training base in WW II. (It’s spelling was incorrect in the Andrews log—recorded as “Wairton”—but the intent and meaning was clear. For some reason, LeMay wanted to be picked up at a remote site.)
“We don’t know what LeMay was doing in Canada, but he did not take his aide with him. Colonel Dorman’s surviving family menbers told Bill Kelly that this was the one and only trip when LeMay did not take his aide with him. Apparently, LeMay felt it necessary to lie to his family and associates about his whereabouts that day, otherwise his family and associates would not have fed the false information about a Michigan hunting trip to his biographer.
Where did LeMay go?
“Furthermore, LeMay’s aircraft landed at Washington’s National Airport, instead of at Andrews AFB as had been ordered by the Secretary of the Air Force. The Chuck Holmes logbook reveals that LeMay disobeyed orders that day, and we don’t know why.
“But we do know, from the logbook, that LeMay’s aircraft landed at DCA (National Airport) at 5:12 PM—more than one hour and fifteen minutes prior to the time JFK’s body arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital at 6:35 PM. And the Clifton tapes reveal to us that his aide, Colonel Dorman, was frantically attempting to speak to him on the radio while LeMay was en route to DCA, but was unsuccessful.
Did LeMay attend JFK’s autopsy?
“Navy Petty Officer Paul K. O’Connor—a hospital corpsman whose job it was to assist the pathologists at the autopsy—recounted consistently over the years that when he was ordered by the chief pathologist at the autopsy to tell whoever was smoking in the morgue to put out their cigar, he walked over to the gallery and discovered that the offender was Air Force Chief of Staff Curtis LeMay. LeMay contemptuously blew cigar smoke in O’Connor’s face, and of course, refused to extinguish his cigar.
At the time, erectile dysfunction medications were expensive, but there were discounts on Cialis for the military.
“This is a good example of how a multidisciplinary approach to research bears great dividends. Neither the Clifton Air Force One tapes, nor the Andrews logbook, nor Paul O’Connor’s recollections, can tell us the complete story; but together, we can piece together a significant event on 11/22/63: Curtis LeMay was present at JFK’s autopsy to gloat over the death of his nemesis, and in going there, he disobeyed the orders of his nominal superior, the Secretary of the Air Force, Eugene Zuckert.
“I am proud of the part the ARRB, and my Military Records Team, played in obtaining the Chuck Holmes logbook, for it is the heart of this story. The new dimension about the frustration of LeMay’s aide, Colonel Dorman, comes to us from the Clifton tapes. It certainly makes the basic story even more intriguing. And I believe Paul O’Connor. He told me that story himself back in 1998.”
73 thoughts on “Where was Gen. Curtis LeMay on Nov. 22, 1963?”
One thing is an undisputed fact no matter what anybody says: JFK’s autopsy was not conducted in Texas as it was legally required to be conducted. A murder is a state offense and requires a state autopsy. Arguments took place right at Parkland Hospital as federal officers strong-armed their way through the hospital corridors and placed Kennedy’s body in a coffin in an ambulance. Kennedy’s body was then rushed to Air Force One. This fact is the first sign of a cover-up. A state law pertaining to a murder victim is being openly violated. What was being covered up was most likely Kennedy was hit by bullets coming from different points of entry(not just the book depository).
When President McKinley was assassinated in 1901, a hasty surgery was set up right at the Pan-American Exposition, Buffalo New York. When McKinley finally died, the official autopsy was done right then and there in Buffalo New York
Photograph of General Lemay and Maxwell Taylor leading the Joint Chiefs and Presidential Military Aides at the funeral of JFK, 25 November, 1963.
What stands out here is the look of genuine grief on General Lemay’s face. The Iron visage apparently fell away for one moment.
Where is this photograph to be found? The link provided does not lead to it.
I have seen the photograph. I don’t see how any definitive judgements about Gen. LeMay’s emotional demeanor can be made based on this photograph.
John Judge found the news article about LeMay being killed in a plane crash on 11/22/63 at the Archives II in a file on LeMay – called my attention to it and made a copy that should be among his effects at the Hidden History Center.
While it was speculated that LeMay was at Camp X or a similar secret military base, Camp X was not located near where LeMay was.
Are there witnesses to Lemay having gone fishing, or is it only hearsay…?
Is it possible that he may have actually been in Canada as a matter of convenience and thus unavailable…?
Given the expected development of a Pinetree Line station in that area, I’d say there was also a good chance that there would have been at least one monitoring station already on-site. They could have easily monitored the HF frequencies used by AF1 and the military, including phone patch traffic and likely had rtty gear on hand as well.
I had not heard previous to a post a few days ago that Prouty held that “Landsdale asked me to go to the South Pole” (words to that effect). As i just viewed a YouTube video of Prouty a few days ago stating that “Lemay ordered me there” it seems it may have been the case that the first order or direction to Prouty came from Landsdale but upon reflection or later evidence appearing that Prouty felt that it was LeMay directing Landsdale to ask or direct him to the research station at the South Pole.
Or maybe, after Lansdale suggested that he should go, it was LeMay who signed off on the order sending him to the South Pole. As has been pointed out, Lansdale was not in Prouty’s chain of command, whereas LeMay was. Bureaucracy.
Note to JFKFacts.Org staff: I posted a 3rd item just after my April 18, 2016 5:17 a.m. post (shown above) that commented, in part, on why JFK pushed Hollywood producers to make the film “Seven Days in May”. It initially was posted on your site but now is not. My final post on April 18th at 5:31 does not make sense without my 3rd post that day.
Can you post again this 3rd entry of April 18th?
There is a 500 word limit.:
TomS, welcome home to what hopefully will be an even stronger site for the experience.
April 20, 2016 at 5:30 pm
“TomS, welcome home to what hopefully will be an even stronger site for the experience.”
I’m with you Leslie. Good to see you back Tom.
I think you are correct Mr Grady, Gen LeMay and Gen Landsdale are two of the prime suspects for designing the coup d’etat.
I would advise anyone interested in this angle to pursue the work of Col Fletcher Prouty (whom you have already mentioned).
See, THE SECRET TEAM:
April 20, 2016 at 7:08 pm
“I would advise anyone interested in this angle to pursue the work of Col Fletcher Prouty (whom you have already mentioned).”
That should throw everyone off the trail forever.
Youtube has a long list of videos concerning Prouty. They cover a variety of subjects.
I neglected to mention that in the movie “Seven Days in May” the coup leader was played by Burt Lancaster. Lancaster played Air Force Chief of Staff “General James Mattoon Scott”
And Gen. Scott’s aide Marine Col. “Jigs” Casey, who refused to take part in the conspiracy, and was sent away on leave from the Pentagon shortly before the planned coup by Gen. Scott, was played by Kirk Douglas.
Given LeMay’s actions before and after the assassination it strongly suggests the Air Force Chief knew the assassination was going to happen and in very high probability was a major support person/player in the conspiracy. Why else would he order Air Force Col. Fletcher Prouty (Mr. X in Oliver Stone’s JFK) to the South Pole on Nov. 10, 1963 to baby sit VIP’s witnessing the activation of a nuclear power plant for the research station there. Col. Prouty’s YouTube interview clearly states this fact. Why would the air force colonel that reported only to the joint chiefs of staff and whose prime job was to support the CIA with military support and personnel for whatever assassination or nefarious activities overseas the CIA was overseeing be sent to the South Pole for the 15 days that straddled the assassination of JFK. Could it be Prouty was one of the “good guys” who would not have gone along with the conspirators that murdered our appeasement oriented president. His partner Khrushchev was lucky…he was just forced into retirement 1 year after Dallas. Had Col. Prouty been at his duty post he would have noticed the numerous military units stationed around Dallas that were ordered to “stand down” and would have said “why” and would have raised a stink or at least been a “dangerous witness” to the stand down orders. Normally, army and air force intelligence units from nearby bases would have been ordered to Dallas to provide additional security.
Prouty said Edward Landsdale was the one who asked him to go on that assignment.
Who was Landsdale’s ultimate boss, LeMay and or Dulles?
“Who was Landsdale’s ultimate boss, LeMay and or Dulles?”~Ronnie Wayne
His ultimate and true boss was Dulles. Landsdale was a CIA Agent, under the cover of a US Air Force officer.
It seems that LeMay and Landsdale were working together as a joint CIA-Military operation in the coup against Kennedy.
If it was Landsdale who “asked” Prouty to go to the South Pole research station that would be unusual as Edward Landsdale had no commnand authority over Prouty. Landsdale was pure CIA masquerading as an air force general. He was consistently on overseas assignments doing the destabilizing work of the CIA. What evidence is there that Landsdale had any command authority over Prouty? Prouty did not like that he was being “ordered there” (his words) as he felt it was below his position in the air force. A “request” by Landsdale as you assert would not have gotten Prouty there. AND…….if it was indeed Landsdale does that not make my point. For any serious student of the assassination knows Landsdale was shoulder deep in the conspiracy. The picture of Landsdale in a business suit walking past the “three tramps” in Dealey Plaza 45 minutes after the assassination has been verified by Prouty and a Marine Corp general whose name escapes me but who work closely with Landsdale for years. Alternatively, the chief of the air force did have command authority, either direct line authority as Chief of the Air Force or as a member of the joint chiefs of staff (Prouty was an air force colonel). Finally, i just viewed a YouTube interview last night of Col. Prouty stating clearly that it was indeed LeMay who ordered him there. Very clear was Prouty’s statement…no chance he meant anyone other than LeMay. In a future post i will see if i can id the YouTube video and present it’s name for your review
My last post was: “Finally, i just viewed a YouTube interview last night of Col. Prouty stating clearly that it was indeed LeMay who ordered him there. Very clear was Prouty’s statement…no chance he meant anyone other than LeMay. In a future post i will see if i can id the YouTube video and present it’s name for your review” The YouTube video is entitled “Fletcher Prouty Interview AssassinationOfJFK.net 30,082 views 1 year ago”
So was Landsdale over Prouty? I find Prouty’s statements credible but if you have any evidence who ordered him to the South Pole I wish you would share it. I think it had to come from Dulles or LeMay as Landsdale was the liaison between the Air Force and CIA.
“…only a month or two before JFK’s death, Lansdale had met me in the halls of the Pentagon and said that he had arranged for me to go as a military escort officer with a VIP party to the South Pole. Of course I didn’t mind going, it was a paid vacation to the South Pole. But it had nothing in particular to do with my work, work I’d been doing for nine years in the Pentagon.
There was no special reason why I should go, the work at the South Pole had nothing to do with special operations or covert activities. It was a perfectly above-board job. As a result of that meeting, I left for the South Pole on November 10th, 1963. 1 was in New Zealand on the way back from the South Pole when I heard about President Kennedy’s death.
Why Lansdale asked me to go to the South Pole I have no idea. Or, was there some connection between this role that he may have been playing in Dallas and the fact that he would just as soon I be out of town? I reflected on that, especially when I began to realize that almost all of Kennedy’s Cabinet had been out of town, that some 45 officials with the Cabinet were also out of town, in Honolulu and on their way to Tokyo. They were actually on their way to Tokyo when the President was killed. And over the years I have made a study of how many people, central to the inner workings of the secret government of this country, had been moved out of Washington at that time. It’s a very, very interesting subject. I wish I could answer it. I don’t know how to answer it. I’m sure the picture is Lansdale; others are sure it’s Lansdale, and I have to leave it there.”~Col Fletcher Prouty
Bruce T. Grady
April 18, 2016 at 5:17 am
“Why else would he order Air Force Col. Fletcher Prouty (Mr. X in Oliver Stone’s JFK) to the South Pole on Nov. 10, 1963 to baby sit VIP’s witnessing the activation of a nuclear power plant for the research station there. Col. Prouty’s YouTube interview clearly states this fact.”
Good lord man, just because Prouty states something certainly does not make it a fact. In fact it makes it suspect.
“Why would the air force colonel that reported only to the joint chiefs of staff”
Prouty worked for General Krulac. Krulac is the man Prouty reported to.
“and whose prime job was to support the CIA with military support and personnel for whatever assassination or nefarious activities overseas the CIA was overseeing”
Prouty was responsible for coordinating air craft assets for such operations. Let us not make him larger than he has already made himself.
And how do your points detract from the unusual behaviors of LeMay on the days in question that cause me to highly suspect his active participation in the conspiracy? Or is your position that there was no conspiracy? As you mention Krulac I believe it was Marine Corp General Krulac who strongly opined that it was Edward Landsdale walking past the “three tramps” in Dealey Plaza just after the assassination after Prouty sent him the picture. Was Landsdale just on vacation in his favorite American city that day and his presense there just a coincidence?
LeMay was at the autopsy. Navy petty officer Paul O’Connor’s statement that he was there is good enough for me. O’Connor’s statement included “he (LeMay) blew cigar smoke in my face” in a contemptuous manner is classic LeMay. LeMay was famous for this cigar smoke antic whenever his position or desires were thwarted including at meetings of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. During such meetings, to further signal his contempt, LeMay would also go into an adjoining bathroom to the meeting room, leave the door open, loudly fart and flush the toilet with the bathroom door open. Petty Officer O’Connor was a navy man who would not have know LeMay’s antics prior to the Autopsy and when he blew cigar smoke in his face it was the truth and the blown smoke backs his testimony. Do detractors of O’Connor believe LeMay took his name plate off his uniform before entering the autopsy theatre and changed his well know facial and body features. I don’t think so. Others present at the autopsy stated “a 4 star general” stated he was “in charge” when one of the doctors posed the question. I am glad LeMay prosecuted the air war against Japan…his fervor shortened the war in the Pacific. He clearly thought the Japanese deserved to die and that in the “Sunday Punch” the USSR would “loose 50 million people and we would only loose 10-15 million (words to that effect) and therefore “we would win”. Being a part of knocking off a traitorous president (as LeMay clearly viewed JFK) would be nothing that would bother the general’s “humanity” or sleep patterns. Finally, O’Connor should be respected and praised. His testimony as seen in several, lengthy interviews on YouTube are factual, plausible, always the same & non contradictory and very courageous. Why else would O’Connor tell this story……..would his detractors argue he had a death wish. O’Connor was very lucky to die a natural death presumably in Gainesville, Fl where he lived at the time of his death.
Great post Bruce. Well worth bumping.
This article about LeMay is pure speculation and nonsense. I don’t know what LeMay was doing that day and neither does Doug Horne or anyone else. If he was at the autopsy. so what. I’m sure many wanted to be there and he probably had the credentials to be there.
“…gentlemen if you would, please take note: Mr. Zapruder did indeed capture at least four(possibly even six) people behind the picket fence; all within the last ten or twelve frames of what has now come to be known as, the infamous “Z” film!”
Please note: Frame # 478. Within that frame, there are no less than four people who all seem “highly interested” with “us”, i.e: rather, the man taking their picture! I suppose I would be too, had I been in their shoes – after all, high treason carried a stiff punishment back in 1963!
Anyway: Just as you would’ve suspected. The “gunman” appears to be wearing a policeman’s uniform! And; (you guessed it) behind him, there appears to be a second man who(aside from wearing a hard hat), seems pre-occupied on a hand held radio.
The third person (who is also dressed in a police uniform) who is “peering” over the top of the “Railroad man;” probably standing with one foot on the bumper of a car, and the other foot, atop the bottom runner of the picket fence!
Fourth, but not final: Is a man who is “looking” from around the third mans side, in order to get a “better look” at the man with the camera – Mr. Zapruder!
As I stated earlier-there “appears to be” possibly “two more faces”: one man…just left of the first “gunman;” he looks like he has on a pair of glasses…and another possible…several feet behind #four, but…it is beginning to be more like looking at”ink blots at the Psychs office!”
Addenda: I personally believe man #4 to be “Roscoe White.” My reasoning might seem strange to you, but let’s say it’s a “hunch,” but based on a couple of relevant points. I believe “#4” is bald(he has the sun reflecting off that dome of his), his “general head shape;” and last but not least…his ear! The shape of his ear.
Note: Many times, those who do facial recognition from photographs will tell you; that ears are like fingerprints! Same is said by sketch artists as well!
Sad to say, that “whoever” developed this film, used either too much toner, or left the copy in chemicals too long, or…was “covering up” the identities of these killers! Try ‘messing” with the contrast on #478.
No matter! They’re there. No doubt about it. Look for “yourselves!” – DM
If Curtis Le May was involved with Kennedy’s Assassination then it would make sense Le May was in Canada to help with the escape of Kennedys Assassins . We know the assassins of Kennedy fled to Canada then with forged documents Flew to Argentina and then flew to French Corsica. We know Le May had some French ancestry. We know Kennedy supported De Galle of France after several assassination attempts by the OAS (secret army) of French Algeria on De Galle’s life. We know Kennedy supported the coup d’état in South Vietnam against prime minister Diem . Diem’s son was killed in this military overthrow. Interesting to note Diem’s son controlled all of the Drug trafficking to the west which at that time was controlled by the French Corsican Mafia. We know the Pied Noir and Harkis of French Algeria were angry they had to flee and give up control of French Algeria to Muslims. Many Pied Noir and Harkis applied for exit visas and moved to the Mediterranean islands off the coasts of France Spain and Italy. Certain French Algerians who were members of the military organization (OAS) were probably employed and financed to kill President Kennedy and General Curtis Lemay who was a well know and experienced Military officer may have indirectly played a role with JFK’s Assassination!!!!!!!!
Doug Horne I don’t understand the Point of your Article??…Are you trying to say Curtis Le May had a connection with JFK’s assassination?
Pingback: JFK Blog 7: Where were you on 11/22……Nixon? Dulles? Bush?? Lemay?? Me??? | Stephen Vincent O'Rourke
Bill Kelly says that he and John Judge found a news report at the National Archives while researching the defense condition on 11/22/63. According to Bill, the report stated that Gen. LeMay had been killed in a plane crash on the afternoon of 11/22/63. Obviously this did not happen. You should contact Bill Kelly to see if he has additional information.
The best info I have says that there was to be a “Pinetree Line” Early Warning radar site at Wiarton Ontario, as a result of a USAF site coverage assessment. It seems likely to suspect that there was some sort of RCAF or other military establishment already located there.
There was an emergency airfield established at Wiarton Ontario.
Wiarton, Ontario – *No. 3 A.D.C.C. at R.C.A.F. Station Edgar, Ontario. *No. 3 Air Defence Control Centre
The runway appears to have been able to handle pretty much anything flying at the time.
I cannot find any record of an “intel” base there per se, so perhaps there is some confusion between Wiarton Ont., and the location of Camp X near Oshawa.
Ok we are making progress. One hundred Fifty Minutes after the Assasination, One hour after Oswald arrives at Dalles Police Station in Custody, General Lemay is Wheels up for Andrews from Canada. refuel taxi take off maybe 30 minutes, after arrival, so hour flight time fueling Taxi 30 minutes means flight departed DC area 30 minutes after the Assasination or around the time President declared Dead. This place contact with General Lemay between 12:30 and 1:11 or so for flight to originate from DC area. (Flight time of C-140 Jetstar is a little over an hour to Andrews. Cruising Spoed of C-140 is 585 Mph went in service in 1962) How many bases had a C-140 on call for Air Force Chief of Staff? What was metod of Contact to General Lemay, Radio or telephonically? How Did General Lemay here about Assasination? Is that in the oral history? How does Oral history compare to newly discovered verifications of locations and Itineray? How Long was General Lemay in Canada? When was he last seen before 11-22? Was he on leave or assignment? Was a war Game scenario taking place as a Drill? These should be easy facts to verify. I was in the Air Force at a NORAD Base, procedure to notify General Lemay of Continuity of Government situation would have been 1-2 minutes of Arrival at Parkland if not sooner. So if General Lemay was not up to anything Fishy, going Fishing or going Hunting, what was he doing? What do are Canadian “Friends” say about General Lemay’s Travels in Canada, a Very important VIP should have left so kind of trail? As For Camp X Eikipedia has it being located at Wiarton AFB and the Camp X area of the Base was demolished in 1969…
An old article showing what a dangerous maniac LeMay was (about an episode during the Eisenhower administration where he was basically running his own foreign policy without involving the President):
“Then Gen. Le May said, ‘Well, maybe if we do this overflight right, we can get World War III started.’
Where was he at during the Korean War? I know MacArthur wanted to nuke China for entering the war, and I’m just surprised that LeMay wasn’t there egging him on. Wow! Just thinking how close our planet came to being uninhabitable
brooklynjazz August 23, 2014 at 4:27 pm
I don’t believe LeMay served in Korea. That would have been about the time that he began his time upgrading SAC, which was in bad need of upgrading.
Do you realize that under the Eisenhower “New Look” policy the use of Nukes was the name of the game for the U.S.? Thankfully JFK built up the conventional military when he took office.
The source for this in Lemay biography is an oral history he did for the LBJ library in the 1960’s….
There are more discrepancies in what he says and what he did. He makes it sound in the oral history like he didn’t go to DC immediately.
In that oral history, LeMay claims his reason for entering politics (joining the Wallace ticket in ’68 as vice presidential candidate), was because he felt nixon was to “LIBERAL”; If you can believe that. Also he never mentions John or Robert Kennedy by name, the closest he comes is McNamera, where his disdain is quite obvious. Although crude, his arguments were rather more well reasoned than i anticipated. He generally praises LBJ, although curiously he mentions one great disappointment he had with LBJ, never elaborating. Could it be that LBJ had promised LeMay his, “Sunday Punch” (pre-emptive nuclear strike on China + Soviet Union)? It is quite clear LeMay feels LBJ has reneged on something.
P.S. I recently learned it was LeMay who personally extended Gen. Ed Landsdale’s service by an extra 6 months (ending 30 October 1963), from when he had learned he was to be retired. (during last 6 mo. he visited multiple special forces training facilities).
david thurman September 22, 2014 at 6:25 pm
I don’t see anything spooky here. LeMay was Chief of Staff of the Air Force and Landsdale was an Air Force General (two stars). Being the top general LeMay would have to sign off on any extension of a high ranking Air Force Officer’s extension of service. But why would LeMay do this? Perhaps at the request of JFK. LeMay had no interest in Special Forces or intelligence service people like Landsdale. Kennedy, on the other hand, had much interest in Special Forces and Landsdale.
Yes, I can believe LeMay considered Nixon a liberal…Nixon was not a true conservative Republican Bible thumper like today’s GOP candidates in the past 25 years. Nixon would be out of his league and element running as a Republican today. If Nixon were running, he would be considered a liberal Republican left-of-center. I say this because I was around and in the media during those years, and believe it or not, there wasn’t much of a perceived difference between Hubert Humphrey and Richard Nixon, that’s why Wallace bled off 13% of the votes cast by the new angry, super- conservative voting bloc who eventually elected Ronald Reagan…George Wallace and Curtis LeMay more closely match today’s Republican ideology. Some would say Wallace lost the battle but won the war in the long run. I spoke with many voters during that period who said their conscience made them vote for George Wallace.
David are you Kidding? Nixon was a die hard Liberal..In the 1950’s Vice President Nixon and President Eisenhower wined and dined Martin Luther King in the White House in an attempt to get the Black Vote…After Nixon won in 1968 Nixon became scarred of the strong election showing of George Wallace … At that time Nixon started to play Both the Southern Strategy and Silent Majority ….. Nixon also set up a plan called operation intercept which closed the boarder with Mexico to both immigration and Drugs and for nearly two years nothing cam in or out from our southern Boarder …but after Wallace was shot in 1972 Nixon abandoned operation intercept…By the Way Nixon spied on the Democrats because Nixon was frightened of George Wallace… Thurman Please learn History….LOL
Anyone who could speak as offhandedly about nuclear war as LeMay did is certainly capable of this morbid, ghoulish behavior. The first time I became aware of him was when he was announced as George Wallace’s running mate in 1968, and his “there really isn’t much to fear about nuclear war” statement probably scared a few million people off of voting for Wallace. Of course, they most likely ended up voting for Nixon, so maybe that wasn’t such a good thing.
If George Wallace had won that election, LeMay would have been one heartbeat away from the presidency. A scary thought indeed.
I think it was better that Nixon won.
I noticed in the recent rash of ‘Oswald did it’ TV documentaries & made for TV movies Doug Horne is avoided as if he has a contagious disease. Even Geraldo Rivera (often considered the most daring of TV journalists on the JFK topic )failed to mention Doug’s massive amount of work & contribution to JFK research & the history behind the event. Probably because TV runs the Zapruder film as if nothing is wrong with it & Doug shot it down as tampered with in his ‘Inside The ARRB’ book series.
What I find missing is an explanation why ‘Operation Furtherance’ was deployed by the Pentagon against the Soviet Union & China when JFK fell dead across the seat of his parade car & what role (if any) Gen Lemay played in holding the Pentagon back against launching such an attack (specified in the operation contingency plans released by NSA earlier this year). I can’t help but wonder if LeMay was ‘hiding’ so as to avoid being responsible for ‘pushing the button’.
Camp-X was the military facility where the British trained OSS personnel. However it was located northeast of Toronto on Lake Ontario, and not near Wiarton. I am not aware of any commando training facility near Wiarton, but would be happy to be educated if such exists or existed.
I didn’t know about Camp X and live in Toronto but have visited Oshawa (famous for big auto branch plants) many times.
There’s a lot of info even in Wiki. 😮
(It says the CIA called it the ‘Farm’. Researcher & author H.P. Albarelli, Jr. is cited as a reference source.)
So Lemay and Allen Dulles(per his diary entry found stating he was at the “farm” on nov 22nd,1963) were in the same location in Canada as the assassination took place.
Lemay then upon hearing the assassination has taken place immediately flies from Canada to Washington DC and arrives over an hour before JFK’s body makes it back too Andrews.
Against orders from his superior officer he then decides rather then go to strategic air command or to be with the new commander and chief he will go find where the autopsy of the guy he thought was a commie loving chicken shit president is being conducted.
Well, what was it- a fishing trip or a hunting trip? Did he go to Michigan or was the trip really to Ontario instead?
What difference does it make? Obviously little, as the original story has now changed to that he was on a hunting trip.
To hang a claim that LeMay was at the autopsy based on O’Conner’s claim alone is a stretch. He exaggerated his role in the autopsy, he lied about his coming in contact with the body, he was completely wrong about the brain.
If he wanted to get back to D.C. as fast as possible wouldn’t he want to be picked up as close to his hunting/fishing site as possible? Wouldn’t the U.S.A.F. Chief of Staff want to get back to D.C. As fast as possible in the wake of a Presidential assassination?
Were any Andrews flights diverted to DCA to clear the base for the arrival of Air Force One?
Every thing points to Lemay being at the Autopsy, Horne points out how important it is to piece together this information together. And it is very important to know where he actually was rather than where he was thought to have been.
I really don’t see much of interest here on this particular question.
Let’s say Person X was present at place Y. This is not automatically indicative of anything in particular. If you could prove Person X was present, that isn’t “evidence”, it’s a circumstantial fact. Unless you have some further concrete detail about Person X’s specific actions or involvement at that event, you can’t really do a lot with it, except in the realms of imagination.
The default interpretation applied to this kind of information by researchers is always that they’re indicative of something sinister. What other explanations might there be, and why are they not considered?
I dunno. That a top general who knocked heads with Kennedy over major policy issues and skirted the line of insubordination is present at his AUTOPSY shouldn’t raise concerns?
Unless he’s an acknowledged expert on forensics evidence, there’s absolutely no GOOD reason for him to be present.
Firstly, was LeMay definitely, beyond all doubt, present?
Secondly, assuming he was present, what other reasons might explain his presence? There’s a reflex tendency amongst researchers to assume he was there to manipulate records, the autopsy procedure, and so on. Might he have been present in some of official capacity? Perhaps he turned up to indulge in some unseemly gloating over the demise of his rival?
One step at a time here. To begin with, prove LeMay was there. Then start to examine what his role or involvement might have been and find concrete evidence that he was more than just an onlooker.
As documented in “JFK and the Unspeakable”, John and Robert Kennedy believed that during the Missile Crisis, they had to work out a deal with Khrushchev, and work it out fast, because the Joint Chiefs were on the verge of staging a coup. LeMay told Kennedy to his face, in the presence of others, that he was an appeaser, and that having negotiated an agreement with Khrushchev was the worst foreign policy outcome in the history of the US. LeMay was committed to the idea that ultimately, our survival hinged on defeating the communists with nuclear bombs. LeMay was not lacking of motive to see Kennedy go by any means. his presence at the autopsy behaving like a jerk, and presiding over a sham of an autopsy is suspicious enough.
Wasn’t this the same LeMay who should have been convicted of war crimes for over bombing Japanese cities during WWII? People like him would have turned this country into the Moon’s surface with nuclear WWIII and WWIV.
brooklynjazz August 23, 2014 at 4:10 pm
“Over Bomb”? How the hell do you over bomb something?
Yes, LeMay fire bombed Tokyo. Probably more killed there than the two nukes we used. But if you are talking of war crimes you have a long way to go past LeMay.
You should watch Errol Morris’ The Fog of War about McNamara.
He said “we would’ve been charged with war crimes today”.
LeMay was dangerously fearless, but if there was a legitimate war, I’d want him on my side.
I see the problem as this. LeMay had no business being in the autopsy room. Neither did anyone else, possibly excepting Burkley. So, while in and of itself his presence doesn’t constitute proof of criminal involvment, it’s a fact that should be set off to the side and remembered. He had no legitimate reason to be there.
Just where did he go when he got back to D.C. then. Given Johnson’s alleged fear of a Soviet Nuclear attack one would think in his position he should have rushed to SAC HQ to oversee a potential Defcon II rating. Would there not be a record of such or at least witnesses if he did so?
From what I’ve read I think I’d take O’Conner’s word over his.
For anyone not familiar with him:
Also, it’s been so many years since I’ve seen it but didn’t he have a role in the movie Dr. Strangelove?
So you would take the word of a Hospital Corpsman over a 4 star combat veteran who almost single-handedly created the U.S. nuclear force that deterred World War III? Why? There is really no sense in that argument, LeMay’s faults including being brutally honest about his perceptions to the point of antagonizing people. He was a martinet, but a productive one.
This seems to be one of those tangents favored by conspiracy theorists that in the end signifies nothing. There is absolutely no evidence that LeMay was at Bethesda that night.
But even if he was, so what? How does being a witness to an autopsy convict some one of conspiracy to commit murder?
“So you would take the word of a Hospital Corpsman over a 4 star combat veteran who almost single-handedly created the U.S. nuclear force that deterred World War III? Why?”
LeMay was a nutcase. Even nutcases can be right some of the time (referring to his operations in WW2). I seriously doubt that the massive US arms build up of nuclear air forces helped deter WW3—we came within a razor’s edge of WW3 in Cuba in 1962 and if it weren’t for JFK we’d have gone in, with LeMay supplying fuel to that fire. Then he ran on the George Wallace presidential ticket in 1968! Like MacArthur, some generals simply shouldn’t have gone anywhere near politics, and should have only acted to serve the Commander-in-Chief when asked for assistance. LeMay stepped over the line and Kennedy called him on it. You can hear it on the Kennedy tapes. So, yeah, I might listen to the hospital corpsman. If the emperor has no clothes, to borrow from H. C. Andersen…
Lemay was most certainly not a “nutcase”. What you really mean is that his view of the world, and how to win a war would be radically different from yours. And if you’d take the word of a HC (known as a “pecker checker” while I was in the navy) over Lemay then it’s you that qualifies as a nutcase…
Yes, most of us do believe Custer over LeMay.
In a hot minute.
He was AF Chief of Staff so he would go to the Pentagon, which is close to DCA. SAC had its own commander at Offutt AFB.
O’Conner, like many others, seem to want their
15 minutes of fame and so exaggerate their parts in Parkland and in the Autopsy.
If anyone wanted JFK not to be President, they only had to release to the Press pictures of JFK in the Swimming Pool with his Female Office Assistants.