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CIA, Cuba and JFK

A JFK Facts debate about the CIA: Shenon v. Morrow

CIA JFK Phil Shenon
Phil Shenon

On one side you have Phil Shenon, a former New York Times reporter and author of the book, A Cruel and Shocking Act. In an exclusive Q& A interview with JFK Facts earlier this year, Shenon pointed a finger at Cuba.

In response, Robert Morrow, a well-informed JFK author, aruges that JFK’s right-wing enemies in his own government were responsible for the murder in Dallas.

Who’s argument do you find more credible?

Vote in the JFK Facts poll on the next page


(polls)

160 thoughts on “A JFK Facts debate about the CIA: Shenon v. Morrow”

  1. gerry campeau

    Proton to had to truthfullness and timeing of Victoria Adams testimony she saw Officer Barnett insight of rear dock
    Mr. BELIN – Is there any other information that you can think of that might be relevant to anything, connected with the assassination?
    Miss ADAMS – At the time I left the building on the Houston Street dock, there was an officer standing about 2 yards from the curb, and about from the curb across the street from the Texas School Depository, and about 4 yards from the corner of Houston and Elm, and when we were running out the dock, going around the building, the officer was standing there, and he didn’t encounter us or ask us what we were doing or where we were going, and I don’t know if that is pertinent.
    Mr. BELIN – No one stopped you from getting out of the building when you left?
    Miss ADAMS – That’s correct.

  2. gerry campeau

    Proton i will let you in on little secret you need not fear that facts on Pash will be discloses, other then me no one is interested.
    Your little gig on protecting WC and powers to be will be there long after your retirement

    1. gerry campeau

      Proton you are misrepresenting the facts ADAMS heard over DPD radio
      12:37 137 (Patrolman E.D. Brewer) We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building

      12:41 9 (Inspector J.H.Sawyer (sawyer message is deleated)

      12:45 531 (Sergeant G.D. Henslee dispatcher) Well, all the information we have receive, 9, indicates that it did come from about the 5th or 4th floor of that building.

      1. By 12:45 Oswald had left the bus and was about to hail a cab-15 minutes after the shooting.
        The 531 message happened AFTER the APB of Oswald’s description went out, leading to the Tippit altercation.
        Probably 12 minutes after Oswald left the TSBD. Nobody knew what had happened when he fled the scene; nothing that you or anybody else has posted contradicts that statement. The paradox stands.

        1. gerry campeau

          Proton We would not have this argument if Mr Ball was on ball and asked Lovelady what time was it
          Mr. BALL – Vickie Adams?
          Mr. LOVELADY – I believe so.
          Mr. BALL – Where was the girl?
          Mr. LOVELADY – I don’t remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.

          1. gerry campeau

            Proton i agree that there is one PHOTON PARADOX, What Sergeant Howard took the statement from H L Brennan that assassin was shooting from window two floors below top of TSBD and why Herburt Sawyer, Inspector, Dallas Police Department arriving sec. or min.later rushed to fourth floor and took a min.to inspect it then returned to front of TSBD ?
            Mr. LIEBELER – Now who was the one sergeant who instructed you to post yourself there at the door, or was it somebody else?
            Mr. BARNETT – Sergeant Howard.
            Mr. BARNETT – Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a construction worker ran from this southwest corner of the intersection up to me and said, “I was standing over there and saw the man in the window with the rifle.” He and I and the sergeant all three broke and ran for the door. I kept the man there with me. The sergeant ran to the back to make sure it was covered. I kept the man there until they took him across the street to the courthouse. I was there until 3 o’clock, at the door there with one of the other officers, J.D. Smith.

        2. gerry campeau

          Mr. BALL – What did you see was happening?
          Mr. FOSTER – Saw the president slump over in the car, and his head looked just like it blew up.
          Mr. BALL – And what did you do then?
          Mr. FOSTER – Well, at that time I broke and ran around to my right – to the left – around to the bookstore.

          Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
          Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
          Mr. BALL. What did she say?
          Mr. MOLINA. She said “Oh, my God, Joe, he’s been shot.” They were both horrified. I said “Are you sure he was shot?” She said “Oh, Joe ,I’m sure. I saw his hair fly up and I’m sure he was shot” something to that extent.

  3. Considering the majority crowd here, who don’t subscribe to WC narrative, this poll is not unlike having an online poll asking people if they participate in online polls.

  4. Photon, with regards to CT’s “making things up”, I’ll speak for myself by saying it would appear to me that LNers spend more time attacking CTers arguments for a conspiracy than fighting for their belief that LHO acted alone. Renmember, Photon, LHO was never proven guilty in a court of law. And that isn’t made-up..it’s the truth. So we really don’t KNOW who killed JFK, do we?

      1. Of course we know. It was John Wilkes Booth. We also know that there was a conspiracy to take down Seward, other members of Lincoln’s cabinet, and the Vice President, Andrew Johnson. That’s not speculation. That is fact. Lincoln died as part of a conspiracy. There are lone assassins, but there are also plots in history. This black and white attempt by people to paint everything as a conspiracy or everything as the result of lone individuals is complete bullshit. When will Americans develop a more sophisticated, nuanced reading of historical events? It’s overdue.

        1. Actually, nobody saw Booth shoot Lincoln. And many thought that his actions leaving the box were part of the play. Obviously he was just leaving the theater as he was not performing that night.
          Even though he was a famous actor, few in the audience recognized him, so how do you know it wasn’t a double-and the whole episode wasn’t faked by Lincoln’s bodyguard Rathbone to cover up his complicity? Rathbone obviously was in on the plot and probably actually shot Lincoln-he was a confirmed killer and actually liquidated the closest witness to the crime aside from Mary Lincoln! The odds of that not being a conspiracy are 2.3 billion to one.
          Of course Booth was a patsy. As a southern sympathizer he was set up, probably by Johnson who was tired of being Lincoln’s tailor and wanted the power of the office. You can’t prove that Booth ever bought the gun used to kill Lincoln; there isn’t a single sales slip proving he ever bought ammunition for the gun. And how could a little single shot pocket pistol cause such a deadly wound that the first doctor to see him said that he could not survive? Obviously a frangible bullet must have been used-beyond the ability of an actor to obtain. But Johnson as Vice President was responsible for Lincoln’s security, so undoubtably he was able to get special ammunition to Booth. After all, Johnson was an official from a Confederate state and was a known racist who would have treated his Confederate brothers much better that Lincoln ever would.
          Of course, you also neglect to mention how Boston Corbett silenced Booth and was a Mafia asset. What was his ridiculous reason why he shot Booth?
          Like many others he died mysteriously-obviously the victim of a clean-up squad to keep the cover-up intact.Indeed the conspiracy was vast enough to burn down a whole forest and destroy a town and 400 people to eliminate this one man who knew the truth.

          1. Cute.

            Explain the knife attack on Seward, and keep it fairy tale lite as you always do.

      2. Photon, is this LincolnFacts.org? To paraphrase LHO “I don’t know where you get your information” that my last post pertained to Lincoln’s assassination.

      3. Steve Stirlen

        Photon:

        Allow me to help you.

        If LHO had jumped from the sixth floor (or the second floor, depending on whom you believe) with the MC (or Mauser, again, depending on whom you believe) in his hand, yelled at the top of his lungs, “thus always to the tyrants,” rushed past Howard Brennan to give him a better view of what he REALLY looked like, mounted a horse being held for him by the Willis girl AFTER using the butt of his rifle to smack around a few people in Dealey Plaza, then rushing off on his horse without stopping at the Texas Theatre because he was FLEEING the crime of this century, while being followed by a posse of people that REALLY were intent on finding the true killer, then we would have a REAL story. Of course, LHO would not have to worry about Curry or Fritz, because at 12:30 they would have had lunch, and nap time was not far away…

        1. I couldn’t have said it better myself. To compare Oswald and Booth is like comparing apples and oranges. The only similarity is that both assassinations had conspiratorial aspects to them. In 1915 however, there were no Lincoln assassination files still being deliberately kept secret from the general public by an agency of the US government.

  5. gerry campeau

    Proton. TSBD employee’s standing outside listining to DPD radio heard following
    12:32 91 (Ptm. W.D. Mentzel and Ptm. J.W. Courson) 91 clear. 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Looks like the President has been hit. Have Parkland stand by.
    12:35 24 (Ptm. D.L. Pate) 24. 142 (Patrolman C.A. Haygood) I just talked to a guy up here who was standing close to it and the best he could tell it came from the Texas School Book Depository Building here with that Hertz Renting sign on top.
    12:37 22 (Patrolman L.L. Hill) Get some men up here to cover this school depository building. It’s believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the end.
    Dispatcher 10-4. How many do you have there?
    22 I have one guy that was possibly hit by a richochet from the bullet off the concrete and another one saw the President slump
    Can you give us any information as to what happened for these people out here, evidently they had – seriousness of it – the President involved – 1 is at Parkland, along with Dallas 1. We have word it is unknown – Texas Depository Store, corner of Elm and Field – officers are now surrounding and searching the building. (Garbled)

    12:41 Dispatcher What’s your location, 601? 295 (Ptrl. William Price) I believe the President’s head was practically blown off.
    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

    1. Exactly which TSBD employees heard these transmissions? Were they sitting in a squad car? Taking a ride on a motorcycle? Any quotes?
      Gerry, you have fallen into the now familiar CT habit of making things up. There is absolutely no evidence that any TSBD employee heard any of these transmissions- or would understand the code words even if they did.
      Since you have resorted to make a false statement it would appear that you can’t come up with real evidence.The biscuit didn’t go in.

      1. gerry campeau

        Proton,
        Mr. BELIN – That is all right, we want to get that information down. Was this before you got back in the front door of the building that you saw this?
        Miss ADAMS – Yes, sir; while I was standing by the motorcycles.

        1. gerry campeau

          Proton here is more testimony because commen sense doesn’t seem to be your strongest suit
          Miss ADAMS – Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the building.
          Mr. BELIN – What did you do when you got there?
          Miss ADAMS – When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, “What do you think has happened?”
          And she said, “I don’t know.”
          And I said, “I want to find out.” I think the President is shot.
          There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.
          Mr. BELIN – Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?
          Miss ADAMS – It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better go back into the building, and going up the stairs—
          Mr. BELIN – Now at this time when you went back into the building, were there any policemen standing in front of the building keeping people out?
          Miss ADAMS – There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I told him I worked there.
          Mr. BELIN – Did he let you come back in?
          Miss ADAMS – Yes, sir.
          Mr. BELIN – Then what did you do ?
          Miss ADAMS – Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

          1. Please post the police transcript that confirms that the broadcast of a second or fourth floor shot notice was made.
            Makin’ it up as you go?

          2. gerry campeau

            Proton i see you our not man enough to eat your words.

            “We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building”

            “Well, all the information we have receive, 9, indicates that it did come from about the 5th or 4th floor of that building.”

            Proton you can make amends by giveing a honest answer to a question i asked you on
            October 16, 2013 at 10:28 am JFK FACTS

            Photon why did Col Boris Pash LIE to Church Committee on Jan 7 1976 about his retirerment?

            Photon why was Pash civilian Inteligence Job kept secret even to a Senate committee?

          3. The first mention of where the shot came from mentions the fifth floor-at 12:36. Oswald was long gone by then blocks away. There is no mention of shots being fired from the fourth floor on any transcript; as this supposedly caused Adams to panic and return to the building one has to question the veracity of her version of events.
            But more important, the only woman who could corroborate Adams claims of how fast she came down from the fourth floor ( the woman who accompanied her, Sandra Styles) specifically stated that Adams version of events WAS WRONG.

          4. gerry campeau

            Proton please show us SANDRA STYLES testimony
            Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were running down the steps after the shooting, the WC recognized this as a problem in timing, but never resolved it, they refused to do a time study on Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles even after Victoria requested one, the FBI or WC told her that she couldn’t have been on the steps then because Oswald was on them, she was told she was mistaken. Victoria Adams asked to have Sandra Styles give testimony to the WC, Victoria as told that they had her story, they didn’t need Styles.

      2. Steve Stirlen

        Photon:

        You fall into the very common LN position of using only the “facts” that were investigated by two federal agencies and one state agency that we all know either destroyed or manipulated or withheld crucial pieces that could help fill in the gaps still left in the puzzle. If it is outside the WR, you refuse to discuss ANY matter, even though you now know that the people who gave you the report, such as Slawson, admit they were either “naive or simply lied to.” Why must the LN side hide behind a report that has, according to this website, a 96% error rate in one of the primary tests used by Hoover’s agency to tie LHO to his rifle? I am not a math major, but a 96% error rate is quite high.

        Care to have a real discussion? Care to join in a discussion that SHOULD have taken place in 63 and 64? Or, do you wish to remain forever in the dark? It is your choice.

        1. There is no evidence whatsoever that there was a 96 % error rate in any accepted Warren evidence. So the forensic experts have been wrong for 50 years? So every forensic pathologist to review the data save one is wrong? So every shred of medical evidence obtained by 3 board certified pathologists, (including a world renowned expert in bullet wounds) is wrong? So every photograph and x-ray obtained post mortem on JFK is a fraud or altered? So every photograph that Oswald’s wife said that she took of Oswald holding a rifle is faked? So the Zapruder film is faked? So every test done that demonstrates the stability of the 6.5 mm round and the accuracy of the Carcano rifle is faked? So every recreation that demonstrates how easy it was to fire accurately the Carcano rifle 3 times in less than 8 seconds is faked? So the WFAA team that filmed the discovery of the Carcano and threw the film out of the window of the TSBD to employees of the station( not the Dallas police) faked everything to further a conspiracy?
          Exactly what evidence do you accept? Are you sure that JFK was even shot?

          1. This is a spurious and bogus argument on the part of the CIA—I mean Photon.

            First of all, we know now how the Z-film was altered, spliced and butchered, and we have the man who spoke out about the changed film from the one he first saw at the Kodak facility. So the film does show what happened, but like a crudely photoshopped ad, it isn’t entirely unaltered. Secondly, regarding x-rays, forensics, etc.—-there were choke points in the collection of evidence, including JFK’s body, which render suspect some of the forensic evidence. The Parkland nurse and doctor observations of a massive blast out of the back of the president’s head got changed in Bethesda in a very limited access autopsy. Many of the photos were destroyed, and the notes of the autopsy were burned. Thirdly, much of the “evidence” implicating that Oswald was the shooter was poorly handled by the Dallas PD, and when he was interrogated it wasn’t recorded on tape, and the notes were destroyed. Then, before he could testify in court, he was assassinated, mobster-style. The acoustical evidence from the dicta belt has been shown to reveal that at least one of the shots came from in front of the motorcade car and not behind. Photon’s only way to discredit this evidence is to try to smear the reputation of the author, Donald Thomas, in a way that is reminiscent of the smear attacks that McAdams made before he was de-frocked.

            The Warren Commission Report was hastily scrambled together, and politically motivated. The whole report was an attempt to wash over any suspicions of other possible shooters in time for Lyndon’s presidential election. Lyndon would go on to lie about the Vietnam War, but this time the public would catch on to his b.s. and he would see that he had no chance to run and win in 1968.

          2. Steve Stirlen

            Photon:

            Of course, you refuse to answer any questions, you simply ask more, but I will take whatever I can get, especially since you rarely, if ever, venture away from your beloved WR. So, I would like to play along…

            When you say “forensic expert,” are you referring to the FBI experts? Because as you know, NO ONE, except you, has any faith in Hoover and his tactics. Well, except for the people he had pictures of in compromising positions. I assume you are referring to the ‘experts” that refused to acknowledge that the bullet that struck the curb by Mr. Tague actually struck the curb, then patched the mark on the curb, then had the curb removed, sent to Washington, tested by the FBI, told the world that the results were consistent with Oswald’s ammunition, then “routinely disposed” of the “results,” then had to release the information when Harold Weisberg filed a FOIA? You know, a chunk of concrete has a TON of secrets to hide, so a FOIA lawsuit HAD to be filed because national security was at stake. Are those the “experts” you are referring to, Photon?

            Or, maybe you are referring to the ‘experts’ that gave us the “magic bullet?” You know, the bullet that was signed for by the FBI BEFORE the bullet was received? You are referring to the bullet that did all of the damage to JFK and JC, but COULD NOT identified with any type of certainty by the man who found it on the stretcher, even though he was badgered to death by the man who wrote the wonderful book, “Passion for the Truth as Long as it furthers my Washington Career,” Arlen Specter? Are those the “experts” you are referring to?

            Or maybe you referring to the “experts’ that gave us the “fleeing” Oswald? You know, Photon, Oswald quickly left the TSBD because HE KNEW that he had committed the crime of the century, so in his haste to get the hell out of Dodge, jumped a bus, got off, got in a cab, went to his boarding house, picked up his revolver, shot a cop, and then unloaded his shells, while at the same time FLEEING Dallas because HE KNEW he had killed JFK. Oh yes, he headed into a theatre without paying—not paying because that would have slowed him down— because one has to catch a movie before fleeing! Is that the expert testimony you are referring to?

            Or, could you be referring to the drunken loon Angleton heading to MC to retrieve Win Scott’s secret diaries? BTW, Photon, were the contents of that diary EVER made public, especially the parts concerning Oswald and MC? Oh, wait, they CANNOT be released because of national security concerns, especially since Oswald was a deranged loner, uneducated, prone to extreme bursts of violence, and on top of that, a lone nut. Is that what you are referring to when you talk about “experts?”

            You see, Photon, people on the LN side—as you feel the need to put people on a “side”—have to cherry pick which “expert’ they are going to worship, and which one they have to debunk. Because if ANYONE dares ask a question that was not covered by the WR, then they have crossed a line that is unapproachable in your world.

            BTW—half of what you have mentioned in your post, like the Zapruder being faked—I have given no credence to. You lump everyone into the same category, because then you can paint everyone with the same WR brush, and refuse to discuss the parts of the WR that were either incomplete, not investigated, or simply ignored.

            Wasn’t it Griffin who said “that we basically dodged the question of motive?” Does that sound like a complete investigation to you?

          3. Steve Stirlen

            Photon:

            (Part 1 of 2):

            Photon:
            Of course, you refuse to answer any questions, you simply ask more, but I will take whatever I can get, especially since you rarely, if ever, venture away from your beloved WR. So, I would like to play along…
            When you say “forensic expert,” are you referring to the FBI experts? Because as you know, NO ONE, except you, has any faith in Hoover and his tactics. Well, except for the people he had pictures of in compromising positions. I assume you are referring to the ‘experts” that refused to acknowledge that the bullet that struck the curb by Mr. Tague actually struck the curb, then patched the mark on the curb, then had the curb removed, sent to Washington, tested by the FBI, told the world that the results were consistent with Oswald’s ammunition, then “routinely disposed” of the “results,” then had to release the information when Harold Weisberg filed a FOIA? You know, a chunk of concrete has a TON of secrets to hide, so a FOIA lawsuit HAD to be filed because national security was at stake. Are those the “experts” you are referring to, Photon?
            Or, maybe you are referring to the ‘experts’ that gave us the “magic bullet?” You know, the bullet that was signed for by the FBI BEFORE the bullet was received? You are referring to the bullet that did all of the damage to JFK and JC, but COULD NOT identified with any type of certainty by the man who found it on the stretcher, even though he was badgered to death by the man who wrote the wonderful book, “Passion for the Truth as Long as it furthers my Washington Career,” Arlen Specter? Are those the “experts” you are referring to?

          4. Steve Stirlen

            Photon:

            (Part 2 of 2):

            Or maybe you referring to the “experts’ that gave us the “fleeing” Oswald? You know, Photon, Oswald quickly left the TSBD because HE KNEW that he had committed the crime of the century, so in his haste to get the hell out of Dodge, jumped a bus, got off, got in a cab, went to his boarding house, picked up his revolver, shot a cop, and then unloaded his shells, while at the same time FLEEING Dallas because HE KNEW he had killed JFK. Oh yes, he headed into a theatre without paying—not paying because that would have slowed him down— because one has to catch a movie before fleeing! Is that the expert testimony you are referring to?

            Or, could you be referring to the drunken loon Angleton heading to MC to retrieve Win Scott’s secret diaries? BTW, Photon, were the contents of that diary EVER made public, especially the parts concerning Oswald and MC? Oh, wait, they CANNOT be released because of national security concerns, especially since Oswald was a deranged loner, uneducated, prone to extreme bursts of violence, and on top of that, a lone nut. Is that what you are referring to when you talk about “experts?”

            You see, Photon, people on the LN side—as you feel the need to put people on a “side”—have to cherry pick which “expert’ they are going to worship, and which one they have to debunk. Because if ANYONE dares ask a question that was not covered by the WR, then they have crossed a line that is unapproachable in your world.
            BTW—half of what you have mentioned in your post, like the Zapruder being faked—I have given no credence to. You lump everyone into the same category, because then you can paint everyone with the same WR brush, and refuse to discuss the parts of the WR that were either incomplete, not investigated, or simply ignored.

            Wasn’t it Griffin who said “that we basically dodged the question of motive?” Does that sound like a complete investigation to you?

          5. Steve Stirlen

            Photon:

            Just in case you don’t know about a FOIA:

            “In one such FOIA lawsuit, Weisberg in 1970 sued for release of the spectrographic analysis the FBI had done on bullet fragments, clothing, and other evidence. The FBI has admitted conducting such tests but refused to release their analyses, leading Weisberg to suspect that this was because the test results didn’t support the single bullet theory. But the courts upheld the FBI’s contention that the files could be withheld because they were “investigatory files compiled for law enforcement purposes,” one of the exemptions allowed under the 1966 FOIA.
            Another Weisberg lawsuit involved one of the Warren Commission executive session transcripts. In 1965 former Commissioner Gerald Ford published Portrait of the Assassin, in which he quoted at length from a particular transcript, revealing that the Commission had grappled with the allegation, brought to them by Texas authorities, that Oswald was an FBI informant. Weisberg sued to get the transcript. Weisberg and his attorney Jim Lesar demolished the government’s claim that the Top Secret stamp on the transcript had any validity, but lost the case in the courts. Prior to the filing of an appeal, the Archives released the transcript. The story of the fight for the transcript is told in Weisberg’s Whitewash IV; a chapter written by his attorney Jim Lesaar is available for reading online.”

          6. So Steve to cut to the quick -you don’t believe any evidence posted in the Warren Report and the FBI only lies and knows nothing about criminal investigation.

  6. I frankly dont believe what WC had to say about evidence on the SIXTH FLOOR, NUMBER OF SHOT& DIRECTION, AUTOPSY, LHO & RUBY.

    I dont believe WC.

    JFK’s political enemies killed him. In a sense it doesnt matter who killed him. This is what the Kennedy Family believed.

    We will not see the likes of another man like JFK in our lifetimes. It is very painful to think of what might have been had he lived.

    We know his political enemies killed him. This has become so clear.

    I dont thinkany of us can fathom having lost him as a husband, son, brother or father.

    Yes he loved the ladies but his STAR shone so brightly so we must persevere.

    .

    1. I agree that it doesn’t matter who killed him. Actually, that was pointed out by researcher Robert Harris, who said in effect that the best way to prove a conspiracy is to prove that 1)-the same assassin couldn’t get off 2 shots in 1.5 seconds, and 2)-JFK suffered at least 2 headshots, and 3)-JFK and Connally were hit by different bullets(as Connally himself swore to for the rest of his life). Harris does an 8-part presentation on the JFKHistory Page.

  7. Dealey Plaza was however a perfect place to ambush the President. We know that for sure.

    We may never know the identity for sure of the other shooters.

    We all have to hang in there as this case has come so far.

    1. CIA document places French assassin Michel Mertz in Dallas that day, so there you go. Hermino Diaz Garcia is another likely shooter, based on evidence Anthony Summers uncovered. I’m also inclined to believe that Malcolm Wallace and Loy Factor were the TSBD shooters, although the evidence on that is a little more sketchy. I definitely don’t believe that Oswald was a shooter; I feel 95% sure about that.

      1. Justin, I agree with you that Mac Wallace and Loy Factor look good as 6th-floor shooters. They very well could have been the two men with rifles who witness Arnold Rowland saw.

          1. Photon, he DID see two men with rifles on the 6th floor, and I do believe you know that.

      2. I believe it’s quite clear Mac Wallace was a shooter. I’m not saying 100% clear, but it would make very good sense. Oswald may or may not have been a shooter, but if he was, he wasn’t the only one. JFK was hit in too many different areas of his body for there to be just one shooter.

        1. I don’t think the CIA would use LBJ’s personal hit man in this operation. If he was possibly there it seems more likely as LBJ’s hands on overseer as the veep crouched down six floors below. I.E., if anybody showed any indication of shooting at LBJ, kill them.

  8. I agree for LHO to have shot from the SIXTH FLOOR was a bad idea.

    Where did he assemble the rifle?

    How come the man who ate his chicken lunch there didnt see anybody when he left at at 12:15?

    Why didnt Victoria Adams see LHO or someone else descend tbe stairs?

    These are very important WITNESSES more important than the likely planted evidence.

    1. Oswald was seen on the 1st floor by three employees at about 12:25. That would have been the same time the Presidential limo was scheduled to pass through Dealey Plaza. It was 5 minutes late, but it just as easily could have been 5 minutes early, and there was no way for the public to know when it would reach the plaza. No one saw Lee with a walkie talkie, and who races up to the top floor to set up to shoot the President with less than 5 minutes to go? No one saw Oswald race up the stairs or take the elevator up. Witnesses saw 2 gunmen on the 6th floor; one of them was dark complected. Most who saw him said he was a negro. Only the half-blind Howard Brennen claimed to have seen Oswald in the snipers nest (as the shooting ended). Lee was seen in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:31, nonchalantly drinking a Coke. We know for a fact that those 2 young ladies descended the stairs – about 30 seconds before Oswald was encountered by officer Baker and Roy Truly – because 4 other employees were with on the 4th floor with them, and corroborated their account. The TSBD timeline is just one of the many, many ways which exonerate Oswald.

  9. gerry campeau

    Proton, Zapruder had to walk by the TSBD to get to his office. DPD 2 times over next 45 min visited his office to retrive his film, he claimed he would only give it to SS or FBI
    Testimony of Miss Victoria ADAMS
    Mr. BELIN – Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
    Miss ADAMS – I said I believed the President was shot.
    Mr. BELIN – Do you remember what they said?
    Miss ADAMS – Nothing.
    Mr. BELIN – Then what did you do?
    Miss ADAMS – I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.

  10. So much of this thread deals with Oswald’s post-assassination behavior, that I thought the following about his pre-assassination behavior, specifically his planning of the assassination, might be pertinent here.

    Lone Nut Buffs like to claim (with no supporting evidence whatsoever) that Oswald discovered the parade route from seeing a map of it in the newspaper on, IIRC, Wednesday 11-20, that he recognized this as a golden opportunity to kill a man he’d never been known to say negative things about (quite the contrary in fact), and decided to perform the deed with the rifle he had allegedly hidden in the garage at the Paine residence, thus necessitating getting a ride to Irving on the evening of 11-21. Now, the rifle he is alleged to have used was a rather difficult thing to camouflage, a look at the place from which he allegedly fired the 3 shots would present obvious problems to anyone who’d any experience of using a rifle (tree and street sign in what turned out to be the line of fire — which was far from the best one from that vantage point — window doesn’t open fully which forces shooter to crouch down in uncomfortable position, etc.), plus it isolates him near the very top of the building in a corner opposite his escape route, which he could only reach by running through a maze of large cartons each containing approximately 50 lbs. of books.

    Plus, there’s the business of his having to take apart the rifle and put back it back together. All of this in a place where any number of people might suddenly appear and either see what you’re doing or intercept you after you’d fired your shots?

    So why bother with the rifle, especially when you haven’t cleaned it the way you’re supposed to, nor practiced with it at any time in the recent past? That’s an awful lot of bother, with a hell of a lot of things that could go wrong.

    You have a revolver in the room you rent in Oak Cliff. Why not just stand out on the sidewalk close to where you would know JFK’s limo has to slow down (extreme hairpin turn) and shoot at him with the pistol? For one thing, according to the Official WC Lone Nut Buff story, you have only 4 bullets for the rifle. But you have at least 6 for the handgun. Moreover, unlike the rifle, it’s easily concealed.

    Of course killing JFK in this way makes your immediate apprehension likely — though given the difficulties associated with escaping unaided from that so-called Sniper’s Nest I don’t see how anyone planning this crime would think the latter scheme any less dangerous than the former. And let’s not forget, according to Lone Nut Buff doctrine, demented Commie Oswald wanted to be remembered forever as a Hero of the People for murdering Kennedy, so why would he care about his own safety afterwards anyway? 😉

    BTW, all the assassinations Oswald was likely to have knowledge of — Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, Franz Ferdinand — involved murder at close range by some sort of handgun.

  11. @MDG- for you the book is important. However, for experienced researchers, there really wasnt anything new- or at least the “new” evidence Shenon and his publisher touted was decades old.

  12. I don’t claim to be an expert on any of the assassination subjects.
    I have read quite a bit the last several several years looking for what seems logical and reasonable. If Mr. Shenon still believes Castro was behind it he needs to read more of the research done on this subject in the last 25 years before expounding on it. If he still believes “Oswald did it”, GEEZE. Is that naivety or a Mockingbird singing?
    At least Mr Morrow points in what I think is the right direction, elements of our Government and their controllers. I just can’t accept LBJ Planned, Organized, Directed and Controlled it.
    Pre-knowledge? Most likely. Putting people in touch with Dallas officials, DPD Etc.? Good chance. Coverup? Definitely.

  13. Phil Shenon’s book does have some valuable nuggets, particularly on the deeply precarious position of VP Lyndon Johnson.

    SHENON:

    “On the afternoon of Thursday, November 21, less than twenty-four hours before the assassination, Pearson met with Bobby Baker in Washington. It was their first face-to-face conversation, and the Senate-aide-turned-lobbyist had dirt to share. “Bobby confirmed the fact that the president had been mixed up with a lot of women,” Pearson wrote in his personal diary. One of Kennedy’s women- a prominent aide to Jacqueline Kennedy- “had her bed wired for sound by her landlady when Jack was sleeping with her,” the columnist wrote.
    Johnson was in Pearson’s crosshairs in the Baker story. That very Sunday- November 24- Pearson’s column was due to target the vice president over his financial ties to the lobbyist. In his diary, Pearson wrote that it would be “quite a devastating story” involving Johnson, Baker, and possible corruption in a $7 billion fighter-jet contract handed to General Dynamics, a Texas firm.”

    [Philip Shenon, A Cruel and Shocking Act: The Secret History of The Kennedy Assassination, pp. 43-44]

    Drew Pearson was going to drop a Bunker Buster Bomb column on Lyndon Johnson on Sunday, November 24th with a focus on LBJ’s ties to Bobby Baker and also LBJ’s involvement with the TFX fighter jet scandal

    Drew Pearson’s column by 1969 was syndicated in over 600 papers with a readership of 60 million people. Pearson also had a weekly radio show “Washington-Merry-Go-Round” that was nationally syndicated. Just before the JFK assassination Pearson was going to drop a bunker buster bomb column on LBJ that would have exploded in Sunday papers on doorsteps all over the East Coast by 7AM Eastern time, or within 43 hours of the JFK assassination.

    Information on Drew Pearson: http://www.library.american.edu/pearson/biography.html

  14. eI think the Shenon book is an important book.

    For instance I never knew ARLEN SPECTER admitted to Shenon he never had seen the JFK Autopsy photos. He asked to see them but was not allowed to.

    It is also inteteresting to see Shenon was contacted by staff lawyers of the WC who wanted to go on record about their doubts. They wanted to tell their story and I am glad they did.

    I didnt know Gerald Ford played such an important role.

    Shenon interviewed many staff lawyers who did a lot of the leg work on the report after the COUP D’ETAT.

    I think he did a fine job of interviewing these key player before they are dead.

  15. Mr. Shenon acknowledged in his book the JFK Assassination had not previously been of much interest to him when he was approached by a former member of the Warren Commission (whom I suspect was Arlen Specter for a variety of reasons) and Shenon’s lack of familiarity with the topic continues to plague his observations.

    During the publicity tour for the book, Mr. Shenon claimed to have uncovered new information not previously disclosed about the extent to which the FBI and CIA hid critical information from the Warren Commission staff. those of us who are well-versed in the assassination know that these so-called new facts that Shenon touts have been largely publicly available since the 1976 publication of the Church Committee Report written by Senators Gary Hart and Richard Schweiker (formally known as “The Investigation of the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy: Performance of the Intelligence Agencies,” Book V, Final Report, Select Committee To Study Governmental Operations) along with the Lopez Report prepared for the House Select Assassinations Committee and the other numerous documents released by the National Archives following passage of the JFK Records Act.

    If you would like to see my review of his book, the link is: https://www.facebook.com/groups/337920816220010/permalink/733943653284389/

  16. Johnson definitely help direct the COVERUP.

    I read Caro’s last book on Johnson and it left a bad taste in my mouth that he was so well prepared indeed “masterful” in asuuming the Presidency after JFK’s death.

    Suffice to say there were those who thought it sufficient and best for the country if only “they” knew “what happened to John”.

  17. Shenon and Morrow are both wrong – both conspiracy theorists who only include the facts that soport their theories and ignore the rest – the total truth must include all of the evidence and not just what supports your pet theory.

    1. Ramon F Herrera

      Then again, how can you determine with total certainty what is real evidence and what is not?

      1. Arnaldo M. Fernandez

        That’s the key question. The JFK assassination research community should gather all the conspiracy facts (or real evidence) that couldn’t be rejected, for example, by Professor John McAdams (or other similar yardstick) without nonsense. For instance, the bullet holes in JFK jacket and shirt, and so on.

    2. Bill, I have a question for you. Why was Lyndon Johnson at 1:20 to 1:26 PM on 11-22-63 telling Malcolm Kilduff that a “communist” had just murdered JFK, thirty minutes before the arrest of Oswald at 1:50PM?

      Is LBJ “Carnac the Magnificent?” Perhaps endowed with paranormal abilities? Who more than Lyndon Johnson was acutely aware of the potently toxic right wing environment in Dallas, 1963?

      Link: http://lyndonjohnsonmurderedjfk.blogspot.com/2015/03/why-was-lyndon-johnson-immediating.html

      1. Ramon F Herrera

        Esteemed Mr. Morrow:

        Given that your loyal readers are not endowed with the skills of “Carnac the Magnificent”, could you clarify for us the following puzzling questions?

        – Are you the “Robert Morrow” who wrote this book?

        http://www.amazon.com/First-Hand-Knowledge-Participated-CIA-Mafia/dp/1561711799/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1432424232&sr=1-1&keywords=Robert+Morrow

        – Who is “Nick Bryant”?

        The reason I ask is because when we click on your name, the following page appears:

        http://www.franklinscandal.com/

    3. If you include ALL the evidence the only conclusion is that Oswald acted alone. If you include only some of the evidence,or FALSE evidence, you can convince yourself that there was a conspiracy-even with no proof that there was one.
      That is why Photon’s Paradox is so important. It reduces everything down to one,simple question that no CTer on this blog has successfully refuted-even after posting false and incorrect information.
      ” Why did Oswald flee the scene of a crime when no one in the TSBD even knew that a crime had been committed?”

      1. Using “Photon’s Paradox” doesn’t work very well. It’s a rather limited, blunt instrument. If you use it on say, the black couple who dropped the Dr. Pepper bottle and lunch at the Grassy Knoll bench and ran, do they also look guilty?

        And here’s another scenario that is quite possible which the so-called “paradox” doesn’t answer: What if Oswald WAS in on the plot, but in a limited, “need to know” capacity, i.e. was set up to meet someone after the shooting? Even if he didn’t fire off the shots (there’s virtually no solid evidence that he did), he could have been a player in a plot.

      2. Arnaldo M. Fernandez

        Please, Photon, the answer to this question could be the one given by Bill Simpich. Oswald was part of the CIA-FBI joint operation against the Fair Play for Cuba Committe (FPCC) and realized he could have been set up or simply at risk because of a piggy-backed operation on top.
        Try better to answer this: How did Oswald know the right time to be at the sniper-nest? But do it after reading this: http://www.ctka.net/2014/The%20evidence%20is%20the%20conspiracy.html

      3. Photon, I have not had the time (nor inclination at the moment) to dispute your nonsense. But rest assured I will asap.

        While you’re waiting for that, why don’t you check Norman’s WC testimony where he tells the Commission that the bit about the shots coming from overhead was not something he said in his statement to the FBI.

        Mr. BALL. I have one question.
        On the 26th of November, an FBI agent named Kreutzer advises us in a report that he talked to you. Do you remember that?
        Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
        Mr. BALL. You remember?
        Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I remember talking to him. I don’t know his name.
        Mr. BALL. He reports that you told him that you heard a shot and that you stuck your head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above you. Did you tell him that?
        Mr. NORMAN. I don’t recall telling him that.
        Mr. BALL. Did you ever put your head out the window?
        Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don’t remember ever putting my head out the window.
        Mr. BALL. And he reports that you stated that two additional shots were fired after you pulled your head back in from the window. Do you remember telling him that?
        Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don’t.
        Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

      4. “Photon’s Paradox” – a fresh branding and bumpersticker length PR campaign that rather than including “ALL the evidence”, it reduces everything down to one, simple phrase that has been refuted time and again, on thread after thread on this blog.

        This is a remarkably jejune attempt by this dwindling point of light calling itself Photon. Perhaps the last gasp of a molehill pretending at mighty Vesuvius.
        \\][//

      5. Photon, how about the evidence of Dallas Police Chief Curry saying no one could place LHO on the 6th floor of the TSBD with a gun in his hand? When I read that, I have real trouble concluding LHO was the only shooter.

      6. I have ignored your question because it makes no sense.

        Mrs. Robert A. Reid testified that she saw Oswald outside her 2nd floor office at approximately 12:32 and informed him that the President had been shot. So how can you say no one in the TSBD knew a crime had been committed? Are you suggesting they didn’t think shooting the president was a crime?

        Furthermore, I take exception to the allegation that Oswald was “fleeing from the scene of the crime.” After his encounter with Mrs. Reid, Oswald is next observed boarding a bus at 12:40. The bus stop in question was located on Elm Street. So would you describe as “fleeing” a man standing on the street corner for (at most) 8 minutes waiting for a bus? I would not.

        I have often wondered if, during the intervening 8 minutes, Oswald overheard someone, perhaps James Powell, giving his description to the police. That would persuade me to make myself scarce, regardless of my innocence, or lack thereof.

        1. JohnR, you should get your facts straight.Why didn’t you mention the entire sentence that Mrs. Reid said to Oswald? The part that you conveniently ignore where she said ” maybe they didn’t hit him”-lie by omission ? If you have to report only half of what somebody says, perhaps your conclusion is not correct.
          Who observed Oswald getting on a bus @ 12:40? Making up claims does not advance your argument either .
          The Paradox stands.

          1. I just turned up this interesting information, from a blogger in Virginia:

            “Photon is an Oswald doppelganger I have seen proof of this in his FBI files! “Photon” was the code name of an agent who looked almost exactly like Oswald.
            I am following several leads at the moment, hoping to find out the actual name and identity of the agent ‘Photon’, and whether he was the one killed in the Dallas PD garage, or if he was the one who was spirited away from the theater.”~Torus V

            \\][//

          2. Photon, I have no need to make up anything. The bus driver himself, Cecil McWatters, testified to the Warren Commission that Oswald got on the bus at 12:40. I’ll leave it up to you the degree to which you believe him, but bus drivers tend to pay attention to the clock. His testimony is here:

            http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/mcwatters.htm

            A former landlady, Mary Bledsoe, corroborates the bus driver’s testimony, although she does not give a time. Her testimony to the Warren Commission is here:

            http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bledsoe.htm

            And finally, we get back to Mrs. Robert A. Reid. You’re right, I did not provide the entire quote. I’ll provide it now: “Oh, the president has been shot. Maybe they didn’t hit him.” However, I fail to see how her quote, in it’s entirety, changes my refutation of your basic point. Your initial question was “Why did Oswald flee the scene of the crime when no one in the TSBD even knew a crime had been committed?” Mrs. Reid was in fact inside the TSBD and she knew a crime had been committed. The assumption upon which your question is based is incorrect, period. Mrs. Reid’s testimony to the Warren Commission is here:

            http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/reid.htm

            I need to point out that I was wrong to write that Mrs. Reid TESTIFIED that she encountered Oswald at 12:32. She did not, in fact, testify to any specific time. One must infer that time from her discussion later on regarding her reconstruction with Mr. Belin. Specifically, that it took her 2 minutes to get back to her office after she heard the shots. It could have more or less.

            I’d like to apologize to everyone, even Photon, for the length and tone of my response. I must admit to being more than a little sensitive to being called a liar. I am a Texan. We have never responded well to that particular provocation.

          3. “Photon”, Are you suggesting that it’s only a crime to shoot at the President (or anyone else for that matter) if you actually hit him?!!! Sorry, but “JohnR” PROVED you wrong. Deal with it.

        2. Clarence Carlson

          I would add that Oswald, in his effort to “flee the scene” walked 4 blocks east on Elm Street and caught a bus that was traveling WEST, back towards the scene of the crime.

          1. Mr. Carlson, I count seven blocks from the TSBD to the area between Griffith and Field, which is where the bus driver testified he picked up Oswald. I must confess to being ignorant, though. The term “block” means nothing to me. I live in the country. I am counting intersections. Am I doing it wrong? What does seven blocks translate to in feet? How long does it take a person to walk seven blocks? I would prefer not to expose my ignorance in so glaring a manner, but to paraphrase Oswald, one doesn’t always get a bag that fits one’s sandwich.

          2. For Photon: Mr. Carlson wrote that Oswald walked EAST and caught a bus traveling WEST. There may be a thousand bus stops west of the TSBD, there may be none. Either way, it’s irrelevant. Again, your question makes no sense.

      7. Photon’s what? Haha, I could think of a better name for it, but I’m too polite.

        You want to answer a simple question?

        Give me one simple piece of real evidence that LHO shot JFK. Just one thing. One.

        And, no, why did Oswald flee is not evidence. You have no idea what he was thinking, what he knew or where he was going. You make assumptions, but that isn’t the same thing as evidence. And I don’t even mean only something so strict that would stand up in court. I mean a single fact that connects him to the actual shooting. Everything you assert is made up out of whole cloth, like Oswald the devious nut who wanted to become famous.

          1. “He killed Tippit.”~Photon

            That one has fallen apart too. Oswald was already in the Texas Theater when Tippit was killed. He bought popcorn during the newsreels before the film even began. The projectionist, who doubled at the snackbar ID’d him with certainty.

            Was it you who entered the theater later agent Photon?
            \\][//

          2. Not conclusive and could easily have been omitted at trial, according to Alfredda Scobey, WC Counsel.

          3. That’s the best thing you got?

            Let’s assume for the moment that Oswald killed Tippet. How is that evidence that he killed JFK? Only one person can murder in a particular radius over a certain time? Was Tippet connected to JFK in some way? Was the same weapon used? Was the act committed with a signature style, like a serial killer? No, no, no and no.

            Again, there is not a single shred of evidence connecting Oswald to JFK’s death if you strip away the bogus motives for which there is not a shred of evidence. “Oswald is a nut” or “he killed Tippett” are not only unproven, but they are not even indirect evidence that he had anything to do with murdering JFK.

          4. I’m not sure he did, Photon. Hoover himself wrote that there was no evidence showing that the bullets that killed Tippit came from LHO’s revolver. That written statement alone leads to problems with the “Oswald killed Tippit” thing.

          5. In an affidavit, T.F. Bowley described the sequence of his actions:
            he drove up to the scene, and noticed Tippit’s body laying in the road;
            he parked his car;
            “I looked at my watch and it said 1:10pm”;
            he tried to assist Tippit;
            and finally he took over the car radio from Benavides (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.24, p.202).

            Warren Burroughs was assistant manager of the Texas Theater in Oak Cliff. … He also testified that Oswald came downstairs and purchased some popcorn at 1.15.
            http://22november1963.org.uk/did-lee-harvey-oswald-kill-officer-jd-tippit
            \\][//

          6. ‘Tippit was shot by two men, one of whom was Billy Seymour…six witnesses, ignored by the Warren Commission, saw two men shoot Tippit. One of them resembled Oswald…Seymour ran toward the Texas Theater.’ –Richard Sprague, The Taking of America 1-2-3, 1976

      8. No one the TSBD knew a crime had been committed? They’d just seen the President’s head blown apart by rifle fire with their own eyes! I think one or two individuals might have come to the conclusion that they’d witnessed a murder.

        As to the “Oswald fled” meme, he didn’t exactly take off the moment after the shots were filed. He was probably still there some 10 minutes after the assassination. He did leave at that point, but even the WC and various Lone Nut Buffs portray his departure as unhurried, damn near leisurely. Hell, after going back to his rooming house to pick up his gun, he was seen by his landlady waiting at a bus stop — for a bus that would have taken him in the opposite direction of the Tippet killing and the Texas Theater.

        You and your pal McAdams love to shout “factoid” at everything inconvenient to Lone Nut Buffs. A post like this one exposes you as perhaps the greatest purveyor of Factoids on this site.

        And to repeat something quite obvious you are always conveniently “forgetting,” there are plenty of WC skeptics such as myself who believe Oswald was mixed up in the plot, either wittingly or not. His actions after the guns went off in Dealey Plaza are just as easily explained as those of someone who suddenly realizes he possesses knowledge that is dangerous, and that certain other people might consider themselves safer with him eliminated.

      9. Richard Brown

        “Why did Oswald flee the scene of a crime when no one in the TSBD even knew that a crime had been committed”

        To “flee” means to run away, as from trouble or danger, to rush off, to withdraw abruptly. LHO did not “flee” the TSBD. He was seen and confronted several minutes after the shooting in the second floor lunchroom by Officer Baker and Roy Truly, moving slowly. He either had a Coke in his hand at that time (if you believe Baker’s handwritten notation that he later changed) or paused to purchase a Coke thereafter. I suppose, Proton, that when one shoots the President a mighty thirst is generated. Then, instead of going down the closer back stairs that would have led him out a more secluded back door, Oswald slowly ambled through a second floor office area where he was seen by Mrs. Reid, who told him that the President had been shot,though conceding that maybe he had not been hit. Even if JFK had not been hit, the fact that he had been shot at was a crime. Oswald then kept moving toward the front stairs, knowing a crime had been committed because he had been so told by Mrs. Reid, and supposedly left the TSBD through the front door. He then walked four blocks or so to catch a bus that was heading right back toward the scene of the crime. Then, when the bus became stalled in the post-motorcade traffic, Oswald got off the bus and walked several blocks to the Greyhound station and caught a cab to his boarding house in Oak Cliff. The last anyone saw of him there, he was standing at a bus stop waiting on a bus that would have taken him away from the scene of the Tippit shooting.

        So, Oswald clearly did not “flee” from the TSBD, as he did not rush from the scene, did not run from the building, and did not abruptly withdraw from the building. Instead, he stopped to buy a Coke, walked very slowly through an office area on the second floor, went down the front stairs, and out the front door rather than using the closer back stairs and out the more secluded rear door. This alleged criminal master-mind then walked to a bus stop to catch a bus heading back to the crime scene. And, people in the building knew a crime had been committed, as at least some people in the building knew that a shot or shots had been taken at JFK. Whether those shots found the mark or not is irrelevant to knowledge of a crime, as the mere attempt to shoot the President constituted a crime. Therefore, your premise that Oswald fled the TSBD and that no one in the TSBD knew that a crime had been committed is demonstrably wrong.

      10. “Why did Oswald flee the scene of a crime when no one in the TSBD even knew that a crime had been committed?”

        This is a complete non-sequitur. If Oswald was not aware that a crime had been committed, then he was not “fleeing the scene of a crime.” Plenty of people who actually witnessed the crime left Dealey Plaza immediately afterwards; should we implicate all of them as likely suspects?

        Furthermore, it is blatantly false to say that nobody at the TSBD was aware that a crime had been committed. Plenty of people who worked there saw it happen in front of their eyes.

        It goes without saying that Oswald’s behavior following the assassination is not suggestive of a desperate criminal who was eager to escape justice.

        1. This is interesting. Multiple postings, none of which address the fact that Oswald told the cops that he left because he thought that they would close for the day-before any mention of anybody being wounded. This seems to have set off a firestorm of desperation-with several falsehoods thrown in in an attempt to avoid the obvious.
          First of all, several posters have claimed that the observers at and in the TSBD saw JFK wounded. That is a falsehood, clearly demonstrated by the testimony of the relevant parties.No one at the TSBD saw JFK’s head ” blown off”. Some posters have posted incomplete information, such as the Reid Statement omitting the ” maybe he wasn’t hit ” comment in an attempt to falsify what she actually said.
          You don’t need to resort to false hoods if your version has any merit.
          The Photon Paradox becomes even more relevant the more that falsehoods and distortions are used in an attempt to refute it, for it becomes apparent that real evidence contradicting it is not available.
          J.D., Oswald was aware that a crime had been committed- he saw it through the scope. He was unique at the TSBD. Who else left so suddenly-and was not accounted for in minutes? “Plenty of people who worked there saw it happen with their own eyes”. I don’t care about ” plenty of people”. Give me one documented witness at the TSBD who stated unequivocally that they saw JFK or Connally actually being wounded. There aren’t any. And that is the heart of the Paradox.

          1. Steve Stirlen

            Photon:

            Here is another comment that I posted that you have yet to respond to. I hope you are not running away!

            Speaking of a paradox, it REALLY must be troubling, irksome, disconcerting, and frightening to realize that the WR, the report that you place absolute faith and hope in, was written by politicians using information given to them by two agencies that may have provided, what do you think a good number might be—30%—of what they actually knew about LHO? You see, old friend, when you base your “facts” on the words of LIARS, you are forced to decide what is truth and what is a lie. Of course, you can stick your head in the sand and hope for the best, but I prefer to look at an issue objectively. For example, if Al Capone wanted to give me advice on how to be a good neighbor, I would probably be a tad skeptical. Likewise, if an agency that has overthrown foreign governments in the recent past tells me that they are telling all they know about an assassination of this magnitude, I would, again, be a tad skeptical.

            Believing liars does place one into a terrible paradox, doesn’t it Photon?

          2. “J.D., Oswald was aware that a crime had been committed- he saw it through the scope.”

            Oh, right — makes perfect sense. Let’s review:

            We know that Oswald committed the crime because he fled the scene of the crime.
            We know that Oswald fled the scene (rather than just leaving) because he knew a crime had been committed.
            We know that Oswald knew a crime had been committed because he was the one who committed the crime.
            We know that Oswald was the one who committed the crime because he fled the scene…

            A display of logic worthy of the Dallas Police Department. Case closed!

          3. “No one at the TSBD saw JFK’s head ‘blown off’.”

            That would be true only if the place employed only blind people.

            Really, this is absurd. There were at the very least dozens of eyewitnesses to JFK’s murder, and the notion that no one employed either by TSBD and the various other companies that had offices in the building were among them (the man’s head literally exploded for god’s sake) is preposterous nonsense. I’d demand that you prove this ridiculous statement, but I’m so grateful to you for cutting the legs out from under yourself I suppose I’d just as soon let it stand as a testament to the Factoids you’re constantly spouting.

          4. O.K., Dr. Photon.
            Abraham Zapruder was outside the TSBD at the time of the assassination. He filmed it, as you know.
            He appeared on a local Dallas TV station that afternoon, and told the anchor that he had seen JFK wounded in the head.
            The father of a young boy (I don’t recall his name) also appeared on the same broadcast, describing a horrible head wound.
            Lots of people in Dealy Plaza noticed the bloodbath. Whether LHO was one of them will never be known, thanks to the “good Sumerian,” Jack Rubenstein of Chicago.

          5. Richard Brown

            Photon, your initial comment was that no one in or at the TSBD knew a crime had been committed (other than Oswald). Of course, this statement is demonstrably wrong, as Mrs. Reid was in the TSBD and she knew a crime had been committed and so told Oswald several minutes after the shooting.

            So, you changed your “paradox” and now claim that no observers at and in the TSBD saw JFK wounded, an entirely different issue. One witness who saw JFK wounded and was, within minutes of the shooting, in the TSBD was Gloria Calvery. The WC didn’t deem it necessary to question her, but the FBI took a statement from her om 3/16/64, found at p. 13 of CE 1381. She stated that she was positioned on the north side of Elm street with some co-workers from Southwestern Publishing Company which had its offices in the TSBD. When she heard the first shot, she told the FBI that JFK’s vehicle “was almost directly in front of where I was standing.” When the shooting was over she ran up to Billy Lovelady and William Shelley, employees of the TSBD who were standing on the front steps of the TSBD. Lovelady testified to the Warren Commission that Calvery ran up to them right after the shooting and told them the President had been shot. Lovelady asked her if she was certain he had been shot. Calvery replied that she was sure, as she had seen blood on JFK and knew that JFK had been hit. (VI WCH 338-339). She then went into the TSBD. So, while Calvery wasn’t in the TSBD at the time of the shooting, she was in its immediate vicinity, and right after the shooting ran up to the front steps of the TSBD and informed others there that JFK had been wounded. She then entered the building. All of this occurred within minutes of the shooting. So, within minutes of the shooting there was at least one person in the TSBD knew that JFK had been shot, Gloria Calvery. And, at the time of the shooting she was “at” the TSBD in the sense that she was in its immediate vicinity.

            All of this is merely an interesting exercise, for, even if Oswald did fire a shot or shots at JFK from the TSBD, which could never have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt if he had been tried, the fatal shot came from the right front, the grassy knoll, blowing out the right rear occipital area of JFK’s head, which Oswald could not have done.

          6. Exactly what position at the TSBD was Zapruder employed at?
            Exactly what job was Bill Newman doing at the TSBD?
            Ed, I am sure that you are a good lawyer but you are making my case. Neither one of the individuals you mention is pertinent to the Paradox-they weren’t in the TSBD at the time of the assassination, nor apparently were they ever in the TSBD prior to Nov. 22,1963. Neither one was next to the TSBD-actually they were about 88 yards away from the snipers perch-essentially the same distance as JFK.
            Nobody at the TSBD had any idea what had happened to JFK as the limo moved toward the triple underpass-except that shots had probably been fired.Newman and Zapruder were two of the very few witnesses who actually saw JFK wounded, none of whom were in the TSBD-except the assassin.
            The Paradox stands.

          7. gerry campeau

            Proton Zapruder was walking past front door Nonsensical Mumbling out loud they killed him,they killed him. He was not the only one to have birds eye view of JFK head been blown off

          8. Warren testimony July 22,1964:
            Zapruder:..”.and the people that I met on the way DIDN’T even know what happened and they kept yelling “what happened, what happened, what happened ?” It seemed that they had heard a shot, but did not know exactly what happened.”
            No mention of him “walking past the front door” of the TSBD”
            No mention of him coming in contact with Oswald.
            He confirms that except for a few witnesses next to the car nobody had any idea that JFK had even been wounded. The Paradox stands.
            As these attempts to refute the Paradox continue to be based on “Dealey Plaza witnesses” and falsehoods about recorded testimony from people actually in or near the TSBD and items not associated with the Paradox it is quie apparent that it is a genuine, valid thought experiment ( similar to the thought experiments so familiar to those who took Physics at the College level) with no refutation that involves genuine evidence. I do note that several posters have admitted that it proves that Oswald had to have been involved. That is a first step toward sobriety in this matter.

          9. Shooting at the president of the United States is a crime. It doesn’t matter whether anyone saw a bullet hit anybody. If anybody at the TSBD heard gunshots being fired in Dealey Plaza as the president’s motorcade was passing through, they knew that a crime had been committed.

          10. gerry campeau

            Proton,The Photon Paradox is bonkers witness at the TSBD where never asked if they saw JFK or Connally actually being wounded by WC legal staff.The closes that question came from John McCloy
            Mr. McCLOY – Did you see the President actually hit by the bullets?
            Mr. JARMAN – No, sir. I couldn’t say that I saw him actually hit, but after the second shot, I presumed that he was, because I had my eye on his car from the time it came down Houston until the time it started toward the freeway underpass.
            Mr. McCLOY – You saw him crumple, you saw him fall, did you?
            Mr. JARMAN – I saw him lean his head.
            Representative FORD – You actually saw the car lurch forward, did you?
            Mr. JARMAN – Yes, sir.
            Mr. JARMAN – Well, after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and I run over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I said, I told them that it wasn’t a backfire or anything, that somebody was shooting at the President

      11. we cant include ALL the evidence because much of it is unreliable with severe chain of custody evidence. Bugliosi said in his book he never saw a case where the evidence was so overwhelming. From what we now know about the unreliability of the forensic evidence, the coerced and manipulated testimony, etc., its pretty clear this was a trumped up case which would have probably been dismissed at a preliminary hearing.

          1. About halfway way he said the shot came in like a good little boy! But then he slips up and tell the truth “the upper right portion of his head was gone the hole was about size of a fist” he also mentioned getting sprayed with brains and the first lady reaching for a bit of skull …he looks to holding it all in coz he cared. The other fella shifty as a Cheshire cat. Reakons they didn’t check windows back then or have radios… What a load of lies

      12. we will never know for sure the answer to your question as to why Oswald left the TSBD but the concept of “fleeing” is clearly not a reasonable one. He got on a bus that was going back TOWARDS the crime scene. He was close to the Greyhound bus terminal. If he really wanted to flee. he could have hopped on a bus to leave town. Instead he goes back to his rooming house and heads to the theater. only reasonable conclusion is that he went there to meet someone. this is not evidence of fleeing…..

        1. Excellent point. Not to mention that he was still at the TSBD for about 10 minutes after the assassination. Someone wanting to make a getaway would have been well-advised to flee immediately, as it’s probable no one would have noticed his absence for a little while due to the shock and confusion of what had occurred and to someone who’d just participated in this murder every second was vitally important. Instead, (and this version of events is by no means certain) he hangs about for a short time doing nothing in particular, then apparently tried to get a cab at the Greyhound station, but allows an elderly woman to take it instead, then gets on a city bus that will take him back through the scene of the crime, goes back to his rented room to pick up a pistol and (maybe) change his shirt, then walks across the street and stands at a bus stop on a route that will take him in the opposite direction from where Officer Tippit will be murdered and from the Texas Theater. Not exactly an indication of innocence, but neither is it an example of the desperate behavior of a guilty man.

          1. More importantly, (credit to Stephen Hunter, “The Third Bullet”), why did LHO forget to bring his S&W .38 to the TSBD?
            He went to the trouble (according to the WC people) of smuggling in a 40″ rifle. Why not tuck the revolver in his pants?
            He left his ring and money on the dresser for Marina; obviously he knew something was going down in Dealy Plaza on 11/22.
            The question is what did he think his role was.
            He said he was a patsy.
            The WC people have pointed out, rightly, that no one would chose to conspire with a runt like LHO. So if they didn’t conspire to have him do the hit, what did they conspire to do with Lee?
            Patsy? Mob hit?

          2. Ed, I might be mistaken but isn’t a little tough to hit a target 60 yards away with a sub- nosed .38 out of a sixth floor window? Particularly if you have a rifle accurate enough to be used by the Italian Army marksmanship team and powerful enough to be used to hunt elephants?

          3. Dr. Photon, you pretend ignorance when I know you are far from ignorant.
            LHO would not have brought his snub-nosed .38 to work for the purpose of shooting the president. It was for the purpose of escape.
            If LHO planned to shoot JFK from the 6th floor, he would have three remaining options: (1) suicide; (2)a famous declaration of his socialist bona fides on national TV; or (3) flight. Since he obviously chose door number 3, wouldn’t he find a concealable handgun convenient? Was it not convenient in his encounter with Officer Tippett? Why leave the gun at home if he knew he would need it after 12:30?
            I think the evidence is clear that LHO knew something was afoot in Dealy Plaza before the fact. His decision to flee, and to shoot Tippett, may be evidence of guilt. It may also be evidence of patsydom. As I have said, Mr. Ruby
            eliminated not just Oswald, but also the explanation for his activities after 12:30.

          4. Why do you assume that Oswald would act according to what you think is logical? How do you know that he didn’t finally decide to take a crack at JFK until Marina rejected him? My personal opinion is that Lee never thought that he could actually pull it off, or thought that he would get killed in the attempt. When he found out out ridiculously easy it was to shoot JFK he was unprepared for Act II -as his actions demonstrated.
            He never planned his escape, as his bus ride and cab ride demonstrated. Perhaps he felt after the shooting that he might actually get away-at least temporarily .So at that point the .38 might come in handy. The broader point is why Oswald felt the need to arm himself 20 minutes after the assassination if he was an innocent patsy.
            By the way, were you behind that electrical fire that closed down the Beltway today?

      13. Steve Stirlen

        Photon:

        I noticed that you have yet to reply to your request for just ONE example where the CIA or the FBI or the DPD lied in this case. Here is just one of the three or four I posted for you:

        Here is another nugget from Shenon’s book that will show YOU about the CIA and its lying about this case. Maybe this one will be the one that helps you understand how lying happens?

        Page 547:

        “From other declassified CIA files, we know, FOR CERTAIN, another secret that Angleton would have been eager to keep: that his elite counterintelligence staff had kept an eye on Oswald—illegally—as far back as 1959, four years before the assassination. THIS WAS A FULL YEAR BEFORE THE DATE THE CIA GAVE TO THE WARREN COMMISSION FOR THE AGENCY’S FIRST FILES ON OSWALD”

        Gee, Photon, refresh my memory, when you tell someone a date and that date is wrong BY A YEAR, does that not indicate that you are LYING? I am pretty sure that does qualify as lying, but I curious as to your take on this quote.

        You accused of CT making false claims and then running away. You would not be doing the same thing, would you, Photon?

          1. Steve Stirlen

            Photon:

            Phillip Shenon’s book “A Cruel and Shocking Act.” I would be happy to get his book and give you the reference from the bibliography, but you have already told everyone on this site that you have read his book so I am certain that you can reference that for yourself.

            I wonder, Photon, how long you can keep playing the “give me one example” game before you FINALLY admit that the CIA and the FBI and the DPD were a joke in 1963, as the CIA and the FBI continue to be today. I cannot speak to the DPD today, but with Curry and Fritz long gone, things HAVE GOT to be improved.

            Now, would YOU like to answer some of the questions that have been put before you? If you head back to the “most important new piece of evidence” thread, I have given you three of four MORE examples of LYING or WITHHOLDING the truth (however you would like to categorize lying or liars I will leave up to you.)

            This lying thing creates quite a paradox, doesn’t it, Photon?

          2. Steve, you seem to have great difficulty documenting your claims.
            I must assume that you have none and that those claims are based on nothing but conspiracy sources and misinterpretations of what authors have stated in the literature.You seem not to realize that the main suggestion of Shenon’s book is that Oswald might have been prompted to kill JFK by actions that happened in Mexico City, actions that suggested possible Cuban involvement. The CIA did not recognize this, or chose to ignore the possibility. There is nothing in the book that suggests that anybody but Oswald shot at the President.

          3. Steve Stirlen

            Photon:

            I would never suggest that you are a liar. That is for you to decide about yourself. To say that you belong in the same group as Helms, Hoover, Curry, and Johnson is not for me to decide. YOU have to look in the mirror and decide for yourself if you are comfortable with these men and their credentials. As for the four that I just mentioned, I am VERY comfortable with lumping them into the LIAR category. I just wish that they were still alive, or I was old enough while they were still alive to write them and tell them how they were a disgrace to the notion of democracy, and one day we will all have to answer to a higher power, including you and me. I am comfortable with that notion. Are you?

            As far as your claims about my references, the ONLY reference that you ever use is the WR. To your credit, you have it memorized. However, your biggest weakness is the inability to accept that THE VERY PEOPLE WHO WROTE YOUR BELOVED REPORT now believe that the two agencies you place absolute faith in deceived them. Your facts are placed on the belief that the WR had all of the information, and that every stoned was turned over in search of the truth. THAT HAS PROVEN TO BE FALSE. That FACT can be found on this website, if you will take a minute and read what Slawson and Morley have said. You will not do that, as they contradict the ONLY piece of evidence that you know, the WR. If you choose to remain in the dark about what the people who wrote the report now say, that is YOUR decision. To stop searching for the WHOLE truth does not make one a liar, just ignorant, in my opinion.

            LBJ, Helms, Hoover, and Curry were, above all else, LIARS. They were, at their core, men of deceit. LBJ was the most corrupt politician in this nation’s history. He WOULD NOT have remained in office had JFK lived. That is a FACT, and you know it. Helms lied to your beloved WC in 63, and lied till the day he died. Morley said so on this site. Care to question his references? Hoover ONLY remained in power because he had a file cabinet filled with pictures of men and women having sex with people other than their wives/husbands. Curry? Hopelessly lost, with NO chance of recovery.

            Would you care to have a real discussion about this case? Or, do you wish to remain in the dark? It is entirely your choice.

        1. Steve, in a response to Vanessa below I made a mistake, quoting a message that she posted as being from December of 2015.
          Does that make me a liar?

          1. Steve Stirlen

            Photon:

            Maybe you can clear up an area of confusion for me. I have read and studied the constitution of these United States, and I can find NOTHING about overthrowing foreign countries that refuse to play ball with American companies, refusing to be exploited by a very few rich Americans while their people starve to death. Please, Photon, tell me WHERE in the constitution does it state that Allen and John Foster Dulles were given permission to overthrow or participate in the overthrow of foreign governments to further increase the bank accounts of their buddies in the name of “democracy.” Remind me, Photon, wasn’t there a Dulles brother on the WC?

            Even the Vietnam War, which was fought under the lie of stopping the spread of communism was, is, and always will be a sham. I would think that YOU would be outraged that LBJ sold the American public a bill of goods called the “Gulf of Tonkin incident” to pressure a spine-less Congress into declaring a need for military engagement. It is a FACT that 58,000 innocent American men and women and millions of innocent Vietnamese were needlessly killed in the desire to “stop the God-less Red menace.” Remind me, Photon, South Vietnam fell in 75 if I am correct. And, again, remind me, don’t I STILL speak the same language today in the United States that I did in the 60’s and 70’s, correct? Hopefully, you will alert the American government when Paraguay considers communism? Otherwise, they could snake right to the United States, and then we will have no chance.

            Based on the facts that you know today, would you consider LBJ a LIAR? Or, was he a “freedom fighter?” Where does Mr. Allen Dulles fall on the LIAR/freedom fighter scale?

      14. Okay Photon, I have finally had the time to find our previous discussion about this back in December 2014.

        Here’s the link. The discussion starts about half-way down with your comment of December 8 2014 at 6.23am and continues to the end of the comments.

        https://jfkfacts.org/assassination/resource/crowdsourcing-jfk-dieugenio-on-the-mysterious-david-ferrie/#comments

        If the link doesn’t work then it’s “Crowdsourcing JFK: Di Eugenio on the Mysterious David Ferrie”.

        So after you’ve reacquainted yourself with our dialogue Photon, perhaps you’d like to provide a response to my points this time. Instead of doing a ‘classic photon’.

        Apologies if I’m sounding obnoxious folks but Photon seems to have that affect on me. Heaven knows why.

        1. Viennese you claimed on Dec 8 2015 that both Norman and Jarman saw the President shot. That is simply not true .Nowhere will you find a quote from these two that they saw JFK wounded. The Norman quote that he saw him ” sort of slump” with the first shot is not comparable with the evidence that the first shot missed and certainly not a definitive statement. He did state that he did not see JFK shot by the rounds that actually hit him. Jarman never stated that he saw JFK hit.
          But Vanessa, why don’t you look at the testimony of two of the individuals who actually saw JFK wounded. It is interesting to note that Gayle Newman and Abraham Zapruder both thought that JFK’s first reaction to being shot was simply play-acting, or as Mrs. Newman stated during her WFAA interview that JFK looked like he was ” going along with a gag”. Do you think that if two people essentially standing within a few feet of JFK couldn’t recognize him being wounded that someone 50 yards behind him and 5 stories above him could see him wounded in the back-particularly if he did not see the spectacularly visible head wound seconds later? Zapruder’s Warren testimony is eerily similar to Mrs. Newman’s.
          No one in the TSBD saw JFK hit. There hasn’t been a single piece of authentic evidence posted on this blog in two years to contradict that fact.
          The Paradox stands. Even false statements have not been able to refute it.

          1. Sorry,VANESSA-spell check is really acting up. Not an insult,Wien is actually one of my favorite cities.

          2. Steve Stirlen

            Photon:

            The only paradox I can decipher is that you base a LARGE chunk of your FACTS on evidence that has now been discredited, such as the 96% error rate of the fiber analysis done by the FBI. Combine that with the information that was withheld or destroyed or altered by the FBI, CIA, and the DPD and you have a report that is incomplete, falsified or simply in error. The real and only paradox I can find is that you claim “truth” about the WR and JFK’s murder when there are still numerous holes to fill.

          3. Steve Stirlen

            Photon:

            I stand corrected. There is also the paradox that you want everyone on this site to believe the people who investigated JFK’s murder and almost always hid behind a veil of secrecy while at the same time we are to believe you, who also hides behind a moniker and credentials you refuse to disclose.

          4. Richard Brown

            “Photon’s Paradox,” as defined by Photon in his or her post of 5/12/15 @ 6:31 a.m.: “Why did Oswald flee the scene of the crime when no one in the TSBD even knew that a crime had been committed?”

            You now claim that “[t]he Paradox stands.” Uh, no. First, as shown by several posters, including me, Oswald did not “flee” the scene. Second, Mrs. Reid knew that a crime (shooting at the President) had been committed, as she told Oswald, though she did not know if he had been struck. No fleeing, and, a TSBD observer with knowledge that a crime was committed. Paradox pulverized.

            Realizing (though not admitting) that your “paradox” had been punctured, you then modified it to, for lack of a better term, Photon’s Paradox 2.0:”Why did Oswald leave the scene of a crime when no one else in the TSBD knew that JFK had been shot (i.e., actually wounded by a shot)?”

            Your paradox 2.0 assumes that no one else in the TSBD knew that JFK had been wounded. I assume this notion is based on the absence of such a specific declaratory statement in any of the statements taken by the FBI of the people in the building during the shooting, which statements were collected and published as WC Exhibit 1381. However, those statements followed a questioning formula, which did not include the topic of whether the person had actually seen or perceived that JFK had been wounded.

            The WC questioned only a few of the scores of people who were in the TSBD during the shooting. One who the WC did question, Victoria Adams, watched the motorcade from the Scott Forsman offices on the fourth floor of the TSBD. She testified to the WC that within 30 seconds of the last shot, she and Sandra Styles ran down the back stairs, arriving on the first floor about a minute or so after they began their descent. Their intent was to exit the building through the back door which led onto the loading dock to head west to the railroad yard behind the picket fence. As Ms. Adams reached the first floor and headed toward the back door, she ran into William Shelley and Billy Lovelady, who were heading toward the back door after coming in from the front steps where they had watched the parade. She told the WC she spoke to Shelley and Lovelady. The WC asked what she said to them. Her reply: “I said I believed the President was shot.” (VI WCH 390). She stated she believed that JFK was shot — not merely shot at, but shot, that is, wounded. Although not exactly sure what had happened, she concluded from her observations that JFK had been shot. So, if Oswald thought the President had been shot, he wasn’t the only one in the TSBD who thought so. The modified paradox does not stand.

          5. Now I remember why you bring out the obnoxious side in me, Photon. You are going to make me re-quote all that WC testimony from Norman, Jarman et al aren’t you? Sisyphus’ job was a doddle compared to the burden we conspiracy realists have to bear (sigh).

            Here’s the bit about Norman seeing the President shot.

            Mr Ball: I have here a diagram of this fifth floor.
            Mr McCloy: May I interrupt here?
            Mr Ball: Go right ahead.
            Mr McCloy; You spoke about seeing the President sort of slump over after the first shot?
            Mr Norman: Yes; I believe the first.
            Mr McCloy: Did you see the President hit on any subsequent shots?
            Mr Norman: No, I don’t recall seeing that.

            McCloy doesn’t ask “Why do you think the President slumped over after the first shot?. Did you think he was shot?”. He just assumes that its obvious that JFK was slumped over because he was shot. Norman says he saw the President slump over after the first shot.

            Do you really think it is possible that Norman and McCloy are both not making the connection between the first shot and the slump? And then to confirm what is implied in the first question McCloy asks if Norman saw JFK hit again to which Norman says “No”.

            I think it’s clear Norman saw that JFK was shot by the first bullet.

            I’m so glad you raised Zapruder – let’s have a look at his interview on WFAA only minutes after the shooting where he says that JFK was hit by the first shot and then slumped to the left. He even acts out the slumping action.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLqOGEBcjnI

            Remarkably similar testimony to Mary Moorman and Clint Hill about that first shot hitting JFK and then him slumping to the left. Zapruder, Moorman, Norman and Hill don’t refer to ‘playacting’. They clearly saw the President shot and by the first bullet.

            PS No problems at all about the spellcheck, Paul. Happens to me all the time too. 🙂

          6. So Photon, paradox kaput?

            Or do we have to go through every other piece of this argument again?

            Paradox kaput, I think. 🙂

          7. Richard , why don’t you quote Victoria Addams entire testimony from April 7, 1964 where she stated that after the first shot her view of JFK was obstructed-and after stating that she makes no further mention of seeing JFK? If she was so sure of JFK being wounded, why did she ask a policeman what happened? Why did she ask Avery Davis what happened? If she saw JFK wounded why did she tell Davis ” I am going to find out”? If she already knew, why was she ” going to find out”? Obviously she had no idea what had happened as her view was admittedly obscured after the first shot.
            Vanessa , if Norman had seen JFK shot wouldn’t he have said so? But he never did. Ever. Again, if he could see the effects of the neck shot that were missed by Zapruder and Mrs. Newman how could he have not seen the head wound?
            The paradox isn’t kaput. As a matter of fact as I keep pointing out the erroneous comments and incomplete statements of those trying to refute it it gets stronger. You have yet to post any statement from anybody in the TSBD that unequivocally states that they saw JFK or Connally wounded. There is a reason for that. Nobody saw it.

          8. Photon, Norman’s Warren Commission testimony clearly indicates he saw JFK shot and McCloy confirms it by his follow up question.

            Mr McCloy; You spoke about seeing the President sort of slump over after the first shot?
            Mr Norman: Yes; I believe the first.
            Mr McCloy: Did you see the President hit on any subsequent shots?
            Mr Norman: No

            How else can you possibly interpret this Photon? Norman isn’t specifically asked by McCloy or Ball if he saw the President shot so he doesn’t actually get a chance to make that declarative statement. And they don’t ask him that because it is obvious from the question and answer that he has seen the President shot.

            The effects of the neck shot are not missed by Zapruder – he clearly says JFK was hit by the first shot and slumped to the left (as does Norman).

            It’s actually irrelevant to our discussion whether Norman saw the head shot or not. He says he didn’t.

            You are arguing that no-one else in the TSBD saw the President shot that day except for the shooter (Oswald) and that is why he left the scene.

            I have just shown you (for the third time) that Norman clearly saw the President shot by the first bullet which he responds to by running out of the TSBD. According to your argument that should make him the shooter instead of Oswald.

            Paradox kaput!

            (and yes, I do enjoy saying that 🙂 )

          9. Norman never said that he saw JFK shot. Period.
            If he had seen it, he would have said it. He didn’t say it. Ever.
            Even when given the chance to say it during the Bugliosi-Spence “trial” his testimony was that he only saw him “sort of slump” over. That’s it.
            And every serious researcher knows the first shot missed.

          10. Photon

            Are you really going to maintain that Norman and McCloy weren’t discussing Norman seeing the President shot by the first bullet? I think your Jesuit educators would be astonished at you maintaining this. How would you justify it to them?

            So in your mind the exchange between Norman and McCloy should have gone like this.

            Mr McCloy; You spoke about seeing the President sort of slump over after the first shot?
            Mr Norman: Yes; I believe the first.
            Mr McCloy: Did you believe that first shot caused the President to slump over because he was shot or did you believe these events were not connected?
            Mr Norman: Yes, I believe that the first shot caused the President to slump over because he was shot.
            Mr McCloy: Did you see the President hit on any subsequent shots?
            Mr Norman: No

            Or do you think the Norman and McCloy actually meant this?

            Mr McCloy; You spoke about seeing the President sort of slump over after the first shot?
            Mr Norman: Yes; I believe the first.
            Mr McCloy: Did you believe that first shot caused the President to slump over or did you believe these events were not connected?
            Mr Norman: No, I did not believe the first shot caused the President to slump over because he was shot.
            Mr McCloy: What did you think caused the President to slump over at the sound of the first shot?
            Mr Norman: I believed that the President slumped over because he was a) ducking the gunfire b) had a sudden urge to nap c) was checking the floor of the car for bullets.
            Mr McCloy: Did you see the President hit on any subsequent shots?
            Mr Norman: No

            I’m surprised that you would refer to the Bugliosi-Spence trial as a source for anything. Why don’t we just stick to Norman’s WC testimony which is pretty crystal clear.

            Please name some serious researchers who think that the first shot missed. Mainly because I would like to know who you consider a ‘serious’ researcher.

            Foton paradoks kaput (that’s Indonesian). 🙂

          11. Hi Photon

            Are you still puzzling over your paradox? I’ll help you out with a revised one.

            “Along with everyone else in the TSBD who realised that there were gunshots fired at the motorcade (including Harold Norman who saw the President shot) Oswald left the building. He claimed he then conferred with his supervisor and, on the basis of this discussion, believed that no more work would be done that day.

            Although Oswald’s supervisor did not confirm this discussion Oswald had knowledge of his supervisor’s whereabouts outside the building that confirmed he had heard or spoken to him at that time. Like numerous other TSBD employees that day, Oswald then left work.”

            Paradox kaputski (probably not Russian) :)

  18. Chuck Schwartz

    It was Allan Dulles who david Phillips called when he told LHO to go the movie theatre in Dallas. (David Phillips was LHO’s handler) Dulles then told Charles cabell to tell his brother (the mayor of dallas- earl cabell) to go arrest the killer in the movie theatre. The rest is history. Charles cabell was fired by JFK as was dulles- they worked together for 9 yrs in the Agency. It was Charles Cabell who was in charge in the Bay of PIgs and he yelled charged w/o JfK’s knowledge.

    1. Ramon F Herrera

      [Chuck Schwartz:]

      “when he told LHO to go the movie theatre in Dallas.”

      ======================

      Lee was not going to the Texas Theater. The police sirens made him turn his back by the shoe shop door and it was only at that point that he decided to hide in the theater. This is readily corroborated by the fact that he did not pay (i.e., he had not rehearsed in his mind entering the theater. Any psychiatrist can tell us that.).

      He was likely on his way to a safe house, given the fact that he only had $13 and change.

      The above is arguable but we can state with certainty that Lee expected somebody else to take care of all his expenses.

      1. What thoughts were in Oswald’s head as he left the TSBD? That will always be unknown unfortunately, even as much of the mystery could be put to rest with that information.

        However, there are indications that Oswald’s presence in the Texas Theater was not by chance. Butch Burroughs and Jack Davis, for example, place Oswald in the Texas Theater at about the time the first feature started (approx 1:20 PM). According to them, Oswald moved from seat to seat on the main floor, sitting directly beside several people in the sparsely populated theater (CBS also reported that day that Oswald moved “from seat to seat”).

        I don’t know what to make of Johnny Brewer’s story – seeing Oswald hide from the police and then apparently enter the theater to escape – but Julia Postal never actually saw Oswald enter. She was on the sidewalk at the time, and she told the WC that if Oswald entered the theater as Brewer said then he (Oswald) would have certainly passed directly by theater manager John Callahan. So the Warren Commission (or FBI) interviews Callahan and gets a positive ID on Oswald entering the theater, right? No – Callahan is not interviewed at all. The DPD had taken down the names and phone numbers of everyone in the theater that afternoon, but that list disappears and no attempts are ever made to clarify what happened in the theater before the arrest was made.

  19. Ramon F Herrera

    Mr. Shennon:

    This question is for you and to some extent for those in the “The Mafia Did It” camp.

    How on earth do you prevent the government of the US from pursuing an aggressive, exhaustive, genuine investigation?

    Let’s say that we accept that the absurd theory (*) that LBJ was brandishing, among the informed VIP -ergo WCR doubters- is true. Why would the government prefer to be accused of treason and murder? Shouldn’t the truth have been revealed when the iron curtain fell? Does Cuba have nukes that paralyze us from action today? Should we be scared at the prospect of The Rage of Grenada, their retaliation for Reagan’s invasion as well?

    (*) LBJ (in Shenon’s view): “We will just chalk a lost president in the ‘cost of doing business’ column. In fact, if the most powerful man on Earth -Fidel- kills me as well: Whatever you do, DO NOT RETALIATE!! COVER IT UP!! Claim that it was a lone wacko!!”.

  20. I object to the fairness of this poll. Having such a poll here would be like asking a New England Patriots fan discussion board vote on whether Tom Brady should be suspended for deflating footballs.

    How about we poll *just members* of the Council on Foreign Relations and the editorial staff at the NYT, Wash Post, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, Dallas Morning News, Austin American-Statesman, Houston Chronicle, the management of ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CNN, USA Today, Time Warner, Huffington Post, the Discovery Channel, the History Channel and the chairman of the history and political science departments of every university and college in the USA, Hugh Aynesworth, Patricia McMillan, Bill O’Reilly, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Chris Matthews, James Piereson, Robert Dallek, George Will, Charles Krauthammer, Edward Jay Epstein, Joseph Califano, Michael Barone, Cal Thomas, Glenn Beck, Jonah Goldberg, Michael Gerson, Pat Buchanan, The National Review, the Weekly Standard, the American Spectator, the New Republic, the Nation, Texas Monthly, Foreign Affairs, the AJPS, the six remaining Warren Commission staffers, Gerald Posner, Vincent Bugliosi, former FBI directors, former CIA directors, former Secret Service directors, every former JCS member, the families of Lyndon Johnson, Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon, every member of the Bush family, WFAA in Dallas and Flavor Flav ( http://www.themoderndaypirates.com/pirates/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/flava-flav.jpg) and see if they think U.S. intelligence or elements of US military had a role in the JFK assassination.
    I think that is a lot more diverse group of informed people than just the reader of this blog.

    Or is it more diverse?

    1. Ramon F Herrera

      Mr. Morrow:

      As you know well, we are a volunteer-based organization and the participants are more than welcome to bring relevant material.

      So, when can we expect the results of the poll that you propose?

    1. If Mac Wallace was one of the assassins on the 6th floor of the TSBD, that traces it to LBJ as a major planner. And I believe Wallace was indeed a shooter. He killed so many others who would have caused political provlems for LBJ..and JFK was about to do the same.

      1. Ramon F Herrera

        [Paul Turner:]

        “If Mac Wallace was one of the assassins on the 6th floor of the TSBD, that traces it to LBJ as a major planner.”

        Bingo! You finally get it. That is PRECISELY the reason Mac had to be avoided like the plague.

        “He killed so many others who would have caused political problems for LBJ … and JFK was about to do the same.”

        Are you seriously attempting to make us believe that you cannot distinguish the different between a Joe Schmoe and the President of the United States?

        1. To your second question, Ramon, I’m not sure where I state that I can’t distinguish the difference between Schmoe and the POTUS. LBJ’s own sister was on that list-no Joe Schmoe there by any means. Wallace was told to kill ANYONE who tried to get in LBJ’s way-whether it be Joe Schmoe or someone very notable.

          1. Ramon F Herrera

            [Paul:]

            “I’m not sure where I state that I can’t distinguish the difference between Schmoe and the POTUS. ”

            ===================================

            Your statement relies upon such equivalency:

            “He killed so many others who would have caused political problems for LBJ … and JFK was about to do the same.”

      2. Paul,what do you mean “if”? Mac Wallace’s fingerprint was found on one of the packing boxes in the sniper’s nest. Proof positive that LBJ orchestrated the whole thing. Who else had the authority to pull the Secret Service agents off the back of the President’s limo just before it departed from Love Field Airport?

      3. There was this ridiculous debate over at the education forum about how the Wallace fingerprint had to have been a plant because LBJ would never have linked himself to the conspiracy in such an easily traceable way. That’s an arrogant and misleading argument because 1) That can never be proven and 2) because it suggests that logic enables us to crawl inside of Lyndon Johnson’s head. It never occurred to the members of the Education Forum that maybe LBJ was arrogant, and felt that Wallace wouldn’t be caught. I can’t prove that either, but that brings me to 3) All that matters is that it was a 34 point match. If Wallace was the shooter, the print proves conspiracy, and if it was planted, that proves conspiracy too. The print is the strongest evidence of Johnson as a suspect, but that evidence wasn’t mobilized in the right way.

  21. Morrow’s argument is supported by the conclusions of Soviet officials following their own investigation into the assassination as well as by William Walton who conveyed the same belief to the Soviets in December 1963 on behalf of Jacqueline and Robert Kennedy.

      1. The FBI knew of their conclusions as documents brought to light by the ARRB illustrate.

        JFK Assassination Review Board Releases Top Secret Documents http://www.indiana.edu/~oah/nl/98feb/jfk.html

        The following letter was a part of secret Soviet Kennedy file documents presented to Bill Clinton by Boris Yeltsin in 1999.

        Secret, Copy No 1
        Central Committee of the CPSU

        26th November 1963

        Must be returned to the general department of the Central Committee of the CPSU

        The American Press is spreading various slanderous allegations about some “connections” between Oswald and the Soviet Union and Cuba. Oswald, accused of assassinating the President of the USA J. Kennedy, was later killed under mysterious circumstances. Some representatives of the American press are trying to justify their insinuations referring to the fact that Oswald had been in the Soviet Union from October 1959 till June 1962.

        The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the USSR and the KGB of the Council of Ministers of the USSR have prepared a statement for the Soviet press with the purpose of exposing these allegations of the American press. The draft for this statement was based on the fact that now, after Oswald has been killed himself, the real face of those circles who are responsible for the killing of President Kennedy, and who are now trying to cover their tracks, is more evident. The question of expediency of such publication requires special consideration taking into account subsequent development of the situation in connection with investigation of the circumstances of Kennedy’s assassination.

        If American authorities contact the Soviet Embassy in Washington with a request to supply them with some information regarding Oswald’s stay in the Soviet Union, they can be provided with a relevant reference document relating to it.

        The draft of the statement attached.

        Asking for your consideration.

        25 November 1963

        A. Gromyko
        No 03381 /GS
        V. Semichastni.

        Russians wary of ’63 Oswald letter. Soviet Embassy officials believed note was forgery | Deseret News http://desne.ws/armWsO via @deseretnews

      2. Justin, James Tague lists it as a chapter in his book LBJ AND THE KENNEDY KILING(Chapter 80, pp329-347).

        1. I have James Tague’s book and I read later on the net that this was a fraudulent report by an author (not Tague). The Soviet Report from Tague’s book was taken from a book called “Regicide” which was discredited by the JFK conspiracy community.

          1. Not certain what’s in Tague’s book, but see Document 1 in above link, which was revealed through the ARRB.

            Neither the Soviets or Castro bought the propaganda of Oswald as the LN.

    1. I suspect that the Soviet report is not all that it’s cracked up to be, otherwise they would have made it public, at some point. The Soviets would’ve relished having the goods on LBJ and releasing that evidence during the cold war. I remember the cold war being a serious situation as late as 1983. That report would’ve been a gift for the Soviets in the war of ideas over which system of government was superior, theirs or ours. It would’ve been a boon to them for world opinion. The Soviets badly needed to be seen as not oppressive compared with the US. The standing of the US government would’ve been brought down substantially had it become public knowledge, even in the late 70’s or early 80’s, that our government killed its own President.

      1. Ramon F Herrera

        “I suspect that the Soviet report is not all that it’s cracked up to be, otherwise they would have made it public, at some point.”

        ===========================

        Are you aware that the report was done by spying?

        The Soviets did that report using the full extent of their intelligence gathering capabilities, so you claim that they should reveal:

        – What they could do.

        even more critical:

        – What they could not.

        Just to satisfy your expectations?

        1. Yes, I am aware that knowledge of the report came out as a result of spying, specifically in New York.
          “Just to satisfy my expectations?” No, to solve the case, to prove conspiracy, and to force upon the government accountability. Not releasing the report renders it useless. It’s disclosure that we seek, the dismantling of secrecy, and obtaining the truth.

          1. Ramon F Herrera

            “Not releasing the report renders it useless.”

            =====================

            Coca-Cola would beg to differ.

            It is customary among journalists to publish stuff with the note: “The real name is being withheld” or they interview somebody with the voice and/or face disguised.

            In those cases you place your trust on the SOURCE (CNN, NYT, whatever).

            In the early days of the Internet, I used to be founder and administrator of mailing lists of Venezuelan overseas. I received some confidential information from my peers (network specialists) about corruption in the oil company which was preventing the Internet from being deployed. I sent a copy to our embassies and consulates UNDER MY CREDIBILITY.

            For the subscribers, that was good enough. It took me years to earn that kind of respect.

            Jeff (as Washington Post reporter and as site boss) has an equivalent role here. If he publishes anything and says: “Cannot reveal the source”, we have two choices:

            – Trust him (I know I do)

            – Move on to another web site. Education Forum, McAdams’, whatever.

            One more time: The Soviets will not reveal their secrets, just because 50 years later some guy named Justin would doubt them. For starters:

            – The report was done using ESPIONAGE.

            – The existence of the report was found out by ESPIONAGE.

            Still unhappy? Take your complaints to Ms. Martha Murphy. Maybe she will oblige.

      2. Ramon F Herrera

        “The Soviets would’ve relished having the goods on LBJ and releasing that evidence during the cold war.”

        =============================

        So, the Soviet Report is useless, but your in-depth, incisive analysis above is useful?

        Are you sure you are clear on the intricacies of clandestine operations?

        When JFK divulged existence of the missiles in Cuba nobody asked to see the evidence. Would you?

    1. Thank you for the link sir. I try to visit the site weekly where there are many outstanding articles. I had neglected to read this one yet as I didn’t care for what little I’ve read of Shenon’s or about it.
      As Mr. Dale said…(ditto).

  22. Once I saw this poll info, my thoughts immediately turned to the cover-up, which I believe was run by LBJ and his buddy John Edgar Hoover(I can’t respect him enough to use the name he preferred). With the focus being on the murder itself, while there may have been some Cubans involved, I believe JFK’s enemies in his own country were the lead organizers, and I keep reading about LBJ’s hitman Mac Wallace as a probable assassin,rich oilmen in Texas, as well as some CIA folks. I’m glad to see that the results so far clearly favor the notion that JFK’s domestic enemies are well out in front.

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