From the History Channel: 9 Things You May Not Know About the Warren Commission.
Days
Hours
Minutes
Technical assistance courtesy of the Mary Ferrell Foundation | Designed by iWebResults
From the History Channel: 9 Things You May Not Know About the Warren Commission.
Technical assistance courtesy of the Mary Ferrell Foundation | Designed by iWebResults
It should also be known about the WC that Commissioners Ford and Dulles threatened to quit unless Rankin would be the one chosen to be the “second in command” under Warren. We must ask why Ford and Dulles wanted Rankin so much, and not others considered.
NOT GUILTY
It has been proven again and again on so many aspects of the case that Lee Harvey Oswald is not guilty of shooting anybody on November 22, 1963.
We have gone through the fraudulent chains of custody for the evidence, including the Magic Bullet, the “snipers nest” bullets, the lack of evidence on the mail ordered guns, the lack of chains of custody for the Tippet shells. The fact that Oswald was down on the 2nd floor of the TBDB at the time the shots were fired. The fact that Oswald was buying popcorn in the Texas Theater at the time Tippit was killed.
But Oswald suffers double jeopardy, triple jeopardy, quadruple jeopardy, perpetual jeopardy; tried endlessly, time and again with each new thread on this forum. Each time, resetting the scales as if nothing has ever been settled before.
The prosecutors rely on compartmentalization. They rely on the jury forgetting that Oswald has been exonerated countless times before. Everything goes down the Memory Hole and the ‘process’ begins again, just like the ‘Peace Process’ in Palestine, it is endless on purpose so there is never a resolution.
It seems that it has come to the point that there is no longer a Sense of Justice in the western world, just like there is no Sense for Liberty here in the land of Full Spectrum Dominance.
I warn you: Create a dog eat dog world and you are bound to be eaten by dogs.
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Leslie. Thank you for your response to my post. I am completely in agreement with you about he ability of Fritz. He appears to be a nice guy…but I’m not sure how he could ever possibly have made it to the level he did within the DPD.
He appears to be more kind than he was professional. He actually seems to apologize for his lack of knowledge before he is even questioned by Ball (WC). Nice guy….just does not come across as being aware of who was doing what and where.
A case in point is his insistence in addressing questions that he was not even asked to address. He actually confused many just by his desire to speak on the subject.
I do not feel that he is in any way implicated in anything more than being less educated or professional than someone who one would expect to be investigating a presidential assassination.
I still feel the Oswald/Ruby issue is one that needed to be followed. Oswald detoured so far out of the way to get nears Ruby’s Apartment (even though the bus depot was nearby though). But, it also goes to show you how quick Oswald was in creating a wannabe alibi.
There are 3 possibilities for Oswald after shooting JFK and being so close to Ruby/Movie theater. Yet, each move negates the possibility of the other.
1. Going to Jack Ruby’s: If true…Why? Was Ruby supposed to give him a ride away from the scene? IF this is true then, of course, on has to wonder what/why Tippit was so aggressive in his actions in the moments before he was killed.
2. Going to the Bus Station: If True….the shooting of Tippit was just a freak coincidence (and they do happen of course) but then Oswald did not continue to the Depot to get a bus. Why not? Do you happen to know if the bus depot was very near….or was it beyond…where Tippit was killed?
3. Going to the Movies: If True…Then this gives credence to Fritz testimony and ‘notes’ (oh brother where art thou) because this was mentioned in the ‘interview’. Of course, logic dictates that, Oswald, once captured there, would say this is where he was going IF her were to try to proclaim his innocence. And again, IF he said that he was going to the movies, would have to stick with this story because he was caught there.
It is just really interesting to note that Oswald was willing to deny anything that had to do with the rifle, his alias(s), where he lived, created stories about where he was at the time of the shooting (how this thread began) etc. etc…YET, when the conversation suited him, he would admit to everything else. This is especially true when the backyard photos appeared. By then Oswald was trapped. The great Fascist Hunter….trapped by the alias of A Hidell, the backyard itself, his wife’s possession/knowledge of the photos, the rifle, the pistol, and the POBOX.
What a tangled web we weave when at first we try to deceive……
🙂
Oswald also volunteered five times, I believe that he ran the Fair Play for Cuba chapter in NO. Strange thing to volunteer over and over again to the DPD. But then when Hosty brings up Mexico City, he clams up. Even stranger on so many levels.
If admitting you’re a pro-Castro activist is fine and dandy, what does it matter that you visited the Cuban embassy too?
“There are 3 possibilities for Oswald after shooting JFK and being so close to Ruby/Movie theater. Yet, each move negates the possibility of the other.”~Bill
And there is the 4th possibility that Oswald simply wanted to see a movie, because he almost certainly didn’t shoot JFK. First you have to prove Oswald shot JFK, THEN you get to ruminated on why he went to the movies.
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Willy. What you accept is not the standard in this case. As for the Victoria Adams and her testimony, he story just does not check on when compared to others who were with her who felt that it took longer, and her own story about about who/what she saw and talked to also downplay her credibility.
A decent…no, make that a poor, prosecutor would shoot her testimony down just based on her own manufacture timeline. She was clearly…CLEARLY…a woman who wanted to be part of the story.
Next. Willy…..YOU wrote a post to me referred me to your note. I read it. I agree with Oswald’s position that he was in the 2nd floor lunchroom. I base that on what Oswald said to Fritz, Hosty, and others in that room. I agree with Baker and Truly who both stated they bumped into Oswald while he was in that room (or walking away from the door for Baker..and in it for Truly by the time he doubled back down to see where Baker was). I also agree with Mrs. Reid who stated that Oswald was in the Offices on the 2nd floor within 2 minutes of the shooting or so. I agree with the reporter who further validates that when Mrs. Reid stated she saw Oswald coming from the back of the Offices he went toward the front entryway.
Factually: Everyone who saw this man saw him AFTER the shooting. And finally, and most comically, even Oswald himself played the game. He knew he was trapped and began to button up asap. From the ownership of the rifle, to Hidell being on the PO Box, to denying he lived at the Neely Street Address (backyard photos).
He was a small man…and he was implicated by his own lies, begun within minutes of the shooting.
“Willy. What you accept is not the standard in this case.”~Bill
The standard of western jurisprudence that a defendant is innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. There are NO EXCEPTIONS to this standard.
Who are you or anyone else to put this standard aside?
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But cunning enough to squirrel away a rifle into the building and the snipers nest without anyone seeing him do it?
Because of the standard of western jurisprudence that a defendant is innocent until proven guilty, I will not accept as viable anything anyone claims Oswald said without double corroboration by others present.
Especially concerning those in law enforcement who have shown themselves either utterly incompetent or suspect of involvement in setting up Oswald as the patsy he claimed he was.
Too many instances of planting, destroying or defacing evidence has surfaced in this case to take authority’s word for anything.
I think an overall assessment of this case exonerates Oswald as a shooter, let alone THE shooter.
The evidence indicates that Oswald was involved in Intelligence himself, and that he was infiltrating the Cuban Exile community.
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Bob. Maybe the issue is lost on you. This entire matter started off with you questioning the Oswald ‘lunchroom’ discussions. Fine. But, in case you decide to do some research that is valid. Read this essay on the subject of Oswald’s whereabouts and his meeting with Baker.
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/116153794/Lost-and-Found-Oswald-Interrogation-Notes
Unless you are totally unwilling to understand the issue you will see that Oswald himself, made admissions to meeting Baker in the Room. Period.
Again…what is interesting about the notes is that Hosty’s notes and Fritz’s notes were never supposed to see the light of day. But they do survive….and they tell a story that further helps the little liar inch closer to putting the noose around his own neck.
All the excuses placed on this little assassin, or in this man’s behalf, are comical. Again…conspiracy? Yes, by Ozzie and Jack Ruby MAYBE. By the govt. Ha!
“This entire matter started off with you questioning the Oswald ‘lunchroom’ discussions.”~Bill
I don’t see how you see Oswald being in the second floor lunchroom mere moments after the shots were allegedly fired from the 6th floor as strengthening your case that Oswald fired those shots Bill. Especially when those women from the other departments on floor 4 were on the stairs within moments of the shots, and none of them saw Oswald on the stairs! So he had to have already been down on the 2nd floor when the shots supposedly were fired. His alibi is Truly & Baker.
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Willy, There is another possibility than the two extremes; i.e., either LHO shot up Dealey Plaza all by his lonesome (at least 8 shots!) OR he had NOTHING at all to do with the gunfire. The 4 women leaving the 4th floor, Adams et al., took at least 2 minutes to reach the lower floors, despite what many researchers maintain. In her WC testimony and other places, V. Adams gives lengthy descriptions of what she and her co-workers did right after the calamity. First, they screamed and jumped around and reached a consensus as to what the hell had just happened. Then they went to the elevators and tried to get one for at least a minute, but they couldn’t and then the power was off. Then they decided, committee-style, what to do. “Go down the stairs.” And they didn’t hurry.
Oswald was in good shape, didn’t smoke, rarely drank, walked a lot. No problem for him to make it from a center window (Mac Wallace in the SE ‘sniper nest’ and Loy Factor in the SW window) to the NW corner and DOWN the stairs (much easier than up), and to the 2nd floor breakroom, 4 flights, in less than 90, even 75, seconds. It’s even possible that an elevator was held for him by the conspirati, and the power cut off as soon as he hit the 2nd floor.
Every adult who knew LHO well — mother, wife, de Mohrenschildts and other Russians — thought Lee was very motivated to shoot John Connally, but never JFK.
That’s how they plot got him there and made him their patsy. “Man, how would you like to shoot that fascist SOB John Con, and get PAID for it?!”
“What’s more important, Lee knew that thieving Gov. Connally, who had changed his discharge status from honorable to dishonorable (after all he’d done for them!), was riding by.”~Roy W Kornbluth
No Roy, what is more important is that Oswald couldn’t have fired the shots from the 6th floor and teleported to the 2nd floor 30 seconds later to be seen by Mrs. Reid, officer Baker, and Roy Truly.
Oswald didn’t shoot anybody that day. He was likely an agent infiltrating the Cuban Exiles, and Bannister’s operation involving them.
But I doubt that he had pre-knowlege of the assassination in Dealey. He was a patsy, not part of the conspiracy.
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“He was a patsy, not part of the conspiracy.” — Willy Whitten
Oh so true that LO was a patsy, and not part of the conspiracy (to assassinate JFK). But how did the plotters make him their patsy? They got him in several compromising positions; they impersonated him many times; and they made sure he was involved in something secretive.
Bonnie Ray Williams and all the other TSBD employees didn’t stand a chance of being framed by the plot because every hour of their time there, every action every day was witnessed by several others in the same boat as them.
Lee Oswald stopped the assassination in Chicago with his almost superhuman knowledge of the murderous right wing. That was reason number 1000 why the coup wanted to hang all the Dallas crimes on him.
Willy. I do not understand why you’re asking me to review you post on what Officer Baker told the Warren Commission. Is there some point in any of this discussion where I wrote that Officer Baker did not confront Oswald in the 2nd Floor lunchroom??????
So, I’m at a loss to understand what asking me to review (what I already ascribe to as the truth about the meeting of Oswald in the 2nd Floor in first minutes after the JFK shooting anyway) is all about? Please, if you care to that is, point out where I write that Baker didn’t confront Oswald. Of course he did. With Roy Truly as a witness no less…and Oswald himself admitting to it to Fritz in his Office after his capture.
So…huh????
Bob. Again, changing what I’ve written through what you’ve written is not resolving the issue. You’re tailoring a response to something to fit you remarks. First, there IS Oswald’s Admission to Fritz (which you say didn’t occur). Then there is Truly’s statement. Then Baker’s statement. And YES, Bob, Baker seems to add detail as he moves further away from the incident. JUST LIKE MANY PEOPLE, WHO LEARNS INFO WOULD DO as time passes (whether through poor memory, missing memory, or ‘learned-memory’.
You said Fritz notes were written after a week. In fact, he made made a statement based on rough notes and fully explained that to Mr. Ball. In his testimony Fritz said he made his report from his ‘rough notes’ within two days. That is 5 days before a week expires. Also, you have no proof whatsoever, NONE, that Capt. Fritz notes were an attempt to rewrite anything of the kind to fit anything. That is pure nonsense and mostly PURE SPECULATION on your part. Read below to find out why.
Interestingly enough…and MORE IMPORTANTLY…We know that Agent Hostly said he burned his notes, as was FBI custom (burning rough drafts or interview notes) the weekend of the shooting. (and I am not referring to the note Oswald left him).
That Fritz’s notes actually document Oswald telling Hosty that he left the note for him at the FBI Offices makes it pretty clear that Fritz did make his rough notes (which he later transcribed two days later from). And, these notes ARE the notes of the interrogation.
On these notes the poison pill appears:
Oswald admits he saw the cop on the 2nd floor lunchroom. He admits he left Hosty the note in the Dallas FBI Offices. A note that nobody…NOT EVEN FRITZ, would know about if Oswald didn’t say it. That Baker has messed up a floor is common of people who DO NOT KNOW THAT the TSBD had a half-floor walkup as you enter it. In other words, you may not even be aware that you were actually on what someone else would call the First Floor b/c you had felt it was the 2nd Floor.
Given this case it is entirely possible, and even probable, that Baker did not know the floor he was on when he stated that he saw Oswald walking away from him was the ‘2nd floor’…and easily could have though he was actually referring to the 3rd floor. He was simply more interested in describing the meeting of the suspect. Not the floor.
MOST IMPORTANTLY on Fritz’s notes: If these ‘notes’ were not authentic or copied (laughable) then ANY AND ALL ALLUSIONS to the Hosty Note would have been deleted and the reason is fully explained in the essay. Try to figure that out Bob. You’ll see the light.
End of Story.
Here is a link to the discovery and discussion. Maybe you should write to them. They can help you became less confused about the issues we’re discussing. I’ve done all I can to help illuminate the story.
http://jfklancer.com/pdf/haappanen-notes.pdf
Peace.
Bill
It’s quite simple. Fritz did not write his notes AT the interrogation. Why bother with such hasty and abbreviated notes, if you have all the time in the world to write them?
Fritz’s notes stating that Oswald claimed to have met an officer on the 2nd floor means nothing at all, simply because the cover up was well under way two days after the assassination.
Bill, Bob, if I could interject here. Captain Fritz’ credibility must be challenged, not simply his ability to recall Oswald’s interrogation with specificity 48 hours after the assassination, but his overall professionalism in handling the crime scene and evidence. This says to me that he was either in over his head and overwhelmed by the drama of it all, or he was incompetent, or he was in some way a facilitator of presenting Oswald as the patsy. He cannot even recall whether or not he carried the rifle that was alleged to have been used to kill the president of the United States. How could someone forget that? Later in the testimony, to Mr. Ball’s credit, you can hear his incredulity as well.
Mr. BALL. Did you initial the rifle?
Mr. FRITZ. The rifle; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. You didn’t. Who did you give the rifle to after you ejected this live cartridge?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that that rifle, I didn’t take the rifle with me, Lieutenant Day took that rifle, I believe, to the city hall, and later I asked him to bring it down–I don’t believe I ever carried that rifle to city hall. I believe Lieutenant Day carried it to city hall, anyway if you will ask him he can be more positive than I.
I agree with you entirely on Fritz, he is totally out to lunch.
BUT the fact that Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunchroom moments after the shootings is verified by the testimonies of Baker and Truly. Fritz can be dismissed as incompetent, or worse. But Oswald was obviously downstairs having lunch when Kennedy was killed.
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You’re right, Mr. Whitten. Oswald’s presence on the second floor is further corroborated by his interaction with Mrs. Robert A. Reid more or less 30 seconds later. I think it’s comical how Mr. Bill tries to turn Oswald’s alibi into evidence for the prosecution.
For Mr. Prudhomme: We’re still waiting for your reference vis a vis Officer Baker’s first day statement regarding his encounter with Oswald.
Regarding the integrity of Fritz in this whole affair, it should be noted that Colonel Morgan of the Louisiana State Police called him in Dallas to tell him about Rose Cheramie’s prediction of the assassination, the confirmed parts of her story, and that she was being held in Houston for questioning by the Chief Customs Agent.
When Morgan hung up from his conversation with Fritz, he told other officers in the room “They don’t want her. They’re not interested.” By that time Oswald had been captured, jailed and shot by Ruby. The DPD wanted no further witnesses to the president’s murder.
The Chief Customs Agent called FBI agents to pass on the information received by Cheramie, but they also did not want to question her.
Bob. It’s called JFK FACTS. You’ve missed the entire point about the notes it appears. Hosty testified that he burned his notes (and a note from Oswald that was left at his offices. Yet, Hosty’s notes, which appeared and were NOT DESTROYED, mention things that FRITZ mentions…this proving that FRITZ’s observations were correct.
In FACT…OSWALD himself mentions to Fritz, in front of others, to ‘check’ the notes he made (Fritz) over the course of his interviews. What you or I ‘feel’ or believe, is not the issue. FACTS are.
As far as Will Fritz and his policies and note taking ability. IF THERE WAS ever a man who appears out of place.
JFK FACTS.
BP. Your opinion of the notes is incorrect.
1. Capt. Fritz’s notes in his interviews with Oswald were not written 1 week after the assassination as you assert. They were written within days. There were actually two sets of ‘notes’. Please be sure you’re speaking of the ‘notes’..and the report of that interview. They were written within days. You may find more information about how valuable they are if you read and understand their importance in light of the other persons who were there. Maybe this article will help you. Maybe not. Personally…I think Fritz was a twit, a bit lazy, and just the wrong man on the scene and possibly lying. http://jfklancer.com/pdf/haappanen-note
While there is discussion on that….fine…the rest is straightforward:
2. Oswald himself admitted that he met the Officer in the 2nd Floor Lunchroom.
AFTER this interview…BAKER I.D. Oswald as the man he saw in the 2nd Floor Lunchroom. He then went on to say that he was with Shelley out front. Later denied by Shelley as he was with Lovelady and others, just as I wrote.
3. Interesting ‘assumption’ by you. I am assuming NOTHING in my note. I’m using factual materials and OSWALD’S own ADMISSIONS. Not weaving what I want in and out and around an conspiracy theory. Oswald had less than 30 seconds (if you use the 1 minute 30 second run of Baker to the 2nd floor and the time-trial of Mrs. Reid to her offices).
As far as Baker goes….He was running into a building that had been unfamiliar to him. He was ahead of Truly and, possibly confused about what floor they were on. I am aware of his different version of events.
Keep in mind that Mr. LHO, said he was with Shelley and Lovelady out front. IF this is the case…he would not have been able to beat Baker to the second floor now would he? Of course not. This meant that Baker would have had to run right past him 2x. Once on the steps to the TSBD..and then Oswald would have had to run past Baker to get to the 2nd floor lunchroom.
But…keep twisting info….the truth will come out. It always does.
Peace.
1. A week or days, what is the difference? The point is, the notes were NOT written by Fritz at the interrogation; despite the attempt by Fritz to make them appear to be hastily written and abbreviated.
2. Please reference the proof that Oswald stated he met an officer in the 2nd floor lunch room. Without proof, this is also speculation.
Baker confused? He only went up one flight of stairs. how many people do you know who think they’ve arrived at the 4th floor after ascending one flight of stairs?
Your last argument is just more circular LN logic, and not even worth responding to.
Bill, See my comment of May 13, 2015 at 1:33 pm on this very thread:
Testimony Of Marrion L. Baker, wherein he states specifically and positively that he confronted Oswald int the 2nd floor lunchroom of the TBDB.
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[Bill:]
“I feel, the WC was strung along by the CIA and the FBI. ”
======================================
Bill, you just made a great job, explaining the time between 11/63 and 9/64, but you still have 51 years more to explain. Specially after HSCA when the Kennedy brother plots were widely known.
To you and those who claim:
(a) “It was the mafia”
(b) “It was Fidel”
I ask: can you please inform us how to join such groups, the most powerful in the world?
If one of both of those groups have been able to have the mightiest power in history do their bidding (*), then the US government is not as great as we have been assuming all along!
(*) while risking being accused itself of treason and murder.
[Bill:]
“I feel, the WC was strung along by the CIA and the FBI. ”
======================================
Let me put it in a simpler way:
Just like the duty of any SS agent is to jump in front and take a bullet for their boss, you claim that the job of the CIA and FBI was to jump in front and take the bullet that was going in the direction of Fidel and/or the Dons.
You must forgive those of us who find that version hard to swallow…
Ramon. Thanks for making it more simple:
You’ve misunderstood my entire theory on the motives of the FBI and CIA in this matter.
I hope I’ve explained it clearly in my note previous to this one.
If I’ve failed at that: Try reading NY Times Reporter Philip Shenon’s Book: A Cruel and Shocking Act: The Secret History of the Kennedy Assassination.
The FBI and the CIA were both self-absorbed, institutionalized, and poorly run govt. organizations. They both wanted to be excluded from the fall-out after dropping the (investigative) ball BEFORE JFK was killed.
Here is link and shot synopsis.
Peace!
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-book-reveals-how-much-fbi-cia-knew-about-oswald-before-kennedy-assassination/
[Bill:]
“You’ve misunderstood my entire theory on the motives of the FBI and CIA in this matter.”
====================================
I have understood that well-known, widely disseminated theory quite well. Newsweek, among others is a long time supporter of it.
“They both wanted to be excluded from the fall-out after dropping the (investigative) ball BEFORE JFK was killed.”
… choosing instead to be called treasonous murderers, to this day.
Allow me to put it in still simpler terms, if that is possible:
– There is a locked box
– In front, protecting it, FBI + CIA
Then the American People speak:
“Agencies: you have two options:
(1) Open box implies that you dropped the investigative ball.
(2) Closed box implies that you were complicit in treason and murder.
“Which is it going to be? – It is YOUR choice”.
Bill, I don’t need to tell you the choice taken by the agencies during five decades, do I?
Read what Gerald Posner has to say, here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/17/us/17inquire.html?hp
Ramon. I don’t need Posner to tell me what I already know. Thanks!
Ramon. I’m not overly concerned with the 50 years since the JFK Assassination and the knowledge of the Cuba/Mafia/CIA plots. They have been investigated.
My view remains: “…WC was strung along by the CIA and FBI”.
The subject of my view is the Warren Commission. Ok? I am not dealing with the aftermath of the events of history on any other subject than that of the JFK Assassination. To this understanding it is….or should be relatively simply to understand that history has bore this out.
We ALL know that the FBI (Under avowed Kennedy Hater, Hoover) was concerned that ‘his’ Agency, the FBI, would look terrible and slip-shod, for obvious reasons (Hosty, dropping the ball, etc, etc). The CIA, the conduit that RFK/JFK used to try to Assassinate Castro was just as evasive in providing information (See Helms Testimony as a source)
The bottom line: Both the CIA and the FBI were not as ‘helpful’ in providing a transparent, if that is the word to use, investigation process. It’s that simple.
Do I feel the FBI/CIA had anything to do with JFK’s Assassination. Absolutely not. They were simply not interested in revealing more of the shady connections to the main cast of characters who were all over the news on that weekend in November of 1963. Oswald and Ruby.
To reiterate: The FBI and the CIA ran their own shows and neither of them wanted to be be linked to the Kennedy Assassination through coincidence or association (Hosty to Oswald and in dropping the ball on him) (CIA to organized crime and links to Jack Ruby) so they just denied any and all connections.
Peace.
And contrary to what other may take from my view on the physical shooting. I do believe that Oswald and Ruby were connected and co-conspirators with others in organized crime. This is why, I feel, the WC was strung along by the CIA and the FBI. They knew of the kennedy brothers/cuba plots..and both wanted to keep that hushed. EOS.
Willy. You don’t have to scan my note at all and, quite honestly, feel no need to respond to it as well. I’ll simply note that you’ve been pretty lackluster and downright snotty to those offering an ‘alternative’ to the nonsense that CT’er’s offer. I’m fine with that. Please…by all means…don’t respond. It’s ok. I’m a big boy and I can take it.
I do not agree with you at all on the time frame conversations you allude to after Oswald shot at JFK. I know of no material I have ever read that reflect my own independent thoughts of his actions after killing JFK.
1. Oswald gave different versions of where he was when JFK was shot.
2. Notably…nobody. NO SINGLE PERSON that Oswald said he was with can vouch for him at all. Incidentally, all of them, every one of them, WAS WITH SOMEONE ELSE WHO CAN VOUCH FOR THEM.
Next, Oswald told Fritz that he left the building because of all the ‘excitement’ and the possibility of no more work that day. Ok. I’ll buy that. There is only one problem with that story. The timeline. Right Willy? And, btw…you’re wrong about reading that the last one was just a reiteration of others remarks. That is just patently not true. I’ve never read a single word written by any author about the 30 seconds between Oswald/Baker and Reid/Oswald encounters. Never one time.
I feel the implications of Oswald’s lies and actions are lost on those who fail to see the larger picture that was developing in the Depository.
The entire Oswald Patsy set-up falls apart in the time line Willy.
In the 30 seconds in question LHO was confronted by Officer Baker….left that lunchroom with his soda in hand, and made his way to the 2nd Floor Offices (where he was encountered by NOBODY WILLY…NOT ANOTHER SOUL) and then is told by Mrs. Reid, while carrying his soda, that JFK was shot at.
In these 30 seconds (at best) our little innocent Patsy is told what happened and then walks out the front door after pointing out a phone to reporter.
So: Oswald lied when he said he was with Jarman.
Lied when he said he was with Shelley (who was with Lovelady).
Lied when he said he left because of the excitement and no work.
….and on and on.
Your beliefs are based on a number o assumptions, none of which can be proven.
1. We have only Fritz’s hand written notes to tell us where Oswald was at the time of the shooting. Did you know Fritz wrote these notes a week after the assassination, and attempted to make them look like hastily jotted down notes?
2. We have only Officer Baker’s and Roy Truly’s testimony placing Oswald in the second floor lunch room. Did you know that Baker’s first day statement placed this incident on the third or fourth floor, included no lunch room, and only spoke of a man walking away from the stairs?
3. Given that your placing of Oswald is based on assumptions, he could have been anywhere in the TSBD, and known far more about the assassination than you are assuming.
“Did you know that Baker’s first day statement placed this incident on the third or fourth floor, included no lunch room, and only spoke of a man walking away from the stairs?” ~Bob Prudhomme
What is your reference for this assertion Bob?
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Furthermore, Bob:
“Curry stated: “I’m not sure about it. No one has ever been able to put him (Oswald) in the Texas School Book Depository with a rifle in his hand.””
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Curry
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62459&relPageId=58
(Dated 1969, after the initial fear/pressure had passed)
Testimony Of Marrion L. Baker
The CHAIRMAN – Would you raise your right hand and be sworn please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
Mr. BAKER – I do, sir.
Mr. BAKER – As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this–I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don’t know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.
Mr. DULLES – Where was he coming from, do you know?
Mr. BAKER – No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.
Mr. BELIN – What did you do then?
Mr. BAKER – I ran on over there
Representative BOGGS -You mean where he was?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.
Mr. BELIN – What did you do?
Mr. BAKER – I hollered at him at that time and said, “Come here.” He turned and walked right straight back to me.
Mr. BELIN – Where were you at the time you hollered?
Mr. BAKER – I was standing in the hallway between this door and the second door, right at the edge of the second door.
Mr. BELIN – He walked back toward you then?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm
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It is possible a conspirator planted rifle, wrapper and set up snipers nest diuring a breakin the night before 22/11/63.
It is also possible Oswald shot a diversionary shot so that is why he fled. A diversionary shot may also have come from Dal Tex Building.
Shots to neck & head that killed Kennedy came from the front. Who were these guys?
The masterminds of the CONSPIRACY be it Dulles or Johnson are KILLERS all the same.
It’s a terrble thing to kill a POTUS and tell the people who elected him that pathetic WC story.
THIS WAS A COUP D’ETAT!
The last two Paragraphs are the key. No ghosts. No nonsense. Just the issue as it stands. The HSCA ‘gunshot’ issue was put to rest. Done deal.
Besides all the stories, legends, hearsay, innuendo, and plain nonsense the issue is pretty clear cut. Every last straw that anyone can possible muster together to paint a conspiracy always flies in the face of a fact.
Most interestingly: Lee Harvey Oswald himself. Here is a man who owned the rifle. Prints on it. Prints on the bag located near it. Prints on the boxes in the window, Name on the Alias name on the Money Order, Alias name in wallet, and etcetera and so on….
Seen in Lunchroom 1:15 seconds after the shooting of JFK. Seen exiting the front doors at 12:33 (and seconds). The only the only people who can say where Oswald was AFTER the shots were Officer Baker, Roy Truly, and Mrs. Reid, a secretary who who worked in the 2nd floor Offices.
I don’t know…but isn’t it incredibly wild that LHO, is found in the 2nd floor lunchroom 1:15- 1:30 minutes/seconds after the shooting (time it took Baker to get to the lunchroom during his trial runs) AND then is spoken to by Mrs. Reid, only about 30 or so seconds later WHERE OSWALD FINDS OUT FOR THE FIRST TIME THAT SOMEONE FIRED SHOTS AT THE PRESIDENT (only about 2 minutes after the shooting as per her trial runs back to her offices). Another individual, Pierce Allman (One Man’s encounter with Oswald) says he saw him but, at the time he was interviewed, said he could not ID Oswald.
THE QUESTION that remains is this: “Mr. Oswald. You stated that you felt there ‘was so much excitement’ and there would probably be no more work that day”. When did you allegedly learn that there would be no more work for the day? I mean, Mr. Oswald, what information did you learn in those oh-so-imporant 30 seconds. The same 30 seconds that one would spend in making their way across the 2nd floor of the TSBD Office area that would make you certain there would ‘be no more work that day?”
Mr.Oswald: What information could you have possibly learned from anyone?? EVERYONE whom you say you were with…from Mr. Jarman, to Mr. Shelley… says YOU WERE NOT WITH THEM and not only that, ALL OF THEM WERE WITH OTHER PEOPLE WHO ALSO DID NOT SEE YOU. Can you explain this Mr. Oswald??
Mr. Oswald: You are aware that, in the only 1:30 from the moment you saw Officer Baker, until you spoke to Mrs. Reid, only 30 seconds have elapsed. So what information made you feel certain that there would be no more work that day. Was it something that occurred very suddenly?
Answer: Yeah: Cuz i shot him.
Bill,
I scan through your remarks here with dwindling interest as time goes by here. This last one for example has zero substance, just a reiteration of the same nonsense we have gotten from you and your comrades on the WC side of the isle.
Your question and answer period with Oswald is not even mildly curious, you putting answers in his mouth as if they actually amount to anything other than your own morbid imagination.
So I just want to point out that you used a lot of words here to say absolutely nothing yet again.
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Yeah, cuz I shot him.
With one full metal jacket round and one frangible hollow point round. I am a very picky hunter.
Ed. There is absolutely no evidence that a single word of your assessment is true. Good luck hunting.
Bill, how do you explain away witnesses seeing two men in the 6th floor window minutes before the motorcade arrived? None of them described clothing similar to what Oswald wore to work that day.
I find it interesting that there is no trolling on the part of Photon in this thread. Hard to dismiss the History Channel as being full of ‘Conspiracy buffs’ like it is to do toward independent researchers.
Willy. This may be a bit too technical for you to read but try to muddle through it. Here is a link to the National Academy of Sciences investigation into the Dictabelt ‘shot’. All the hype disappears when investigated by science and not speculation (your specialty). ;).
http://www.jfk-online.com/nasappd.html
Personally…the last two paragraphs tell it like it is.
Peace out.
I have read this before Bill, I have read definitive rebuttals of it as well. There is nothing particularly technically overwhelming here.
One thing that is not addressed is the acoustic signature of the gunshots.
The ONLY issue it addresses is the ‘crosstalk’ issue, which is taken apart in more sophistication here:
http://www.oocities.org/whiskey99a/dbt2002.html
And here:
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/hear_no_evil.htm
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Is there any reason we have to believe the WC. Those men were mere mortals.
President Johnson set up the WC but we dont have to believe it.
Granted the alternative scenarios as to what happened are disturbing.
Fifty plus years of research is impossible to ignore.
We dont have, or there has never been the same doubts with Lincoln Assasination.
It is becoming clearer the truth about 22/11/63 is much more horrific than any of us imagined in 63.
Incidentally,LBJ himself did not believe the WC.
I found that strange when I read it. At least he should have been satisfied enough that the WC didn’t finger him as being involved. THAT part, he should believe.
It was shots from the front thst killed JFK.
Any shots from the back were diversionary. See ALTGENS photo everybody was looking back.
IMO ayone working on SIXTH FLOOR could have set up snipers nest. In the days before, it could have been set up by absolutely anyone in Dallas.
I dont believe the WC story. It was an easy way out to primarily blame LHO.
It was also an easy way out to protect any involvement by Johnson. LBJ himself blamed many parties-why not stick to one LBJ??? Were you scared or nervous or something?
How connected is the History Channel? I doubt all media commentary and wondered if the fact that the History Channel were willing to publish this list had any significance?
“Among Ford’s many leaks was the revelation that two unnamed members of the Commission—most likely Richard Russell and Hale Boggs—remained unconvinced by FBI evidence that the kill shot had been fired from the Texas School Book Depository.”
A couple of years ago, a book by David Pietrusza called “1948” was published. As I recall, there was a very interesting anecdote in it in which it was stated that one of Tom Dewey’s priorities when elected (and he never doubted he would be until the day after the election) was to go after J. Edgar Hoover. Not just seeking his resignation mind you, Dewey apparently wanted to prosecute him and put him in prison. Unfortunately, the author made no attempt to explain just why this was so.
As for Ford, well, anyone arguing that he was anything other than a miserable, dim-witted, partisan hack really needs to take a look at Ford’s career. The only thing I find the least bit admirable about him was that he never made any attempt to line his pockets with graft the way so many politicians do. When he left DC in 1977 after 30 years in government, his net worth was something like $30,000. And don’t start up with any nonsense about his decidedly awful Presidency — it gave us both Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney, two plagues whose ill-effects may never be eradicated. And did I mention he never publicly thanked the guy who saved his life in the Sara Jane Moore assassination attempt, very likely because the man was gay? He did send a note a few weeks later . . .
…and the 10th thing: They got it right despite the desires of Hoover, in trying to protect his beloved FBI, Helms, trying to prevent his failed assassination attempts, and LBJ’s forever ‘it could have been me’ attitude. In the end of the day it’s been over 50 years and nothing to overturn the conclusions. Nothing. PS…reason number 9 was completely disassembled in the end.
“In the end of the day it’s been over 50 years and nothing to overturn the conclusions. Nothing. PS…reason number 9 was completely disassembled in the end.”~Bill
Nothing? Surely you jest!
“number 9 was completely disassembled in the end.”~Bill
Okay, let’s have your case for that in detail here.
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President Johnson and FBI director J. Edgar Hoover agreed that LHO was the shooter before the public announcement of the creation of the Warren Commission. Some investigation I don’t know why some much credence is given to the Warren Commission repot when it was already fixed before the American Public were informed about its formation.
Bull CHT will always be Bull CHT no matter how many and which way you slice it.
The Warren Commission was not created to investigate facts. It was done so to protect the “fact” that LHO killed JFK, something we will never really know as a fact.
(10) The Warren Commissioners were not allowed to see the Zapruder film.
That’s all we need to know.
(11) The Report had no index available to the public, but in all likelihood the insiders had one.
We The People repaired that blatant, inexcusable violation of fundamental norms (thanks, Mrs. Meagher!!!!)
Reading the comment that J. Edgar Hoover “lied his eyes out,” makes me think back to a discussion I had with one of my co-workers at the Freedom of Information Act offices of the FBI, which took place in the early 1990’s.
He was the lead in the processing of the FBI’s JFK assassination files which were released to the public. He told me that there was nothing in the FBI files that pointed to anybody but Oswald as being JFK’s assassin and he was convinced of it himself. I argued that all you would simply have to do is leave out anything that would not point to Oswald as the lone assassin and, lo and behold, you have an investigation that only points to Oswald!
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
However, I found out back then that it’s useless trying to make that point to a person who has had more than his share of drinks from the Lone Assassin Kool Aid Fountain!!!
Alfred Goldberg – Pentagon Historian who wrote the Warren Report
Philip Shenon – from “A Cruel and Shocking Act” (2013):
ALFRED GOLDBERG
“Warren asked the director of the National Archives, Wayne Grover, for advice on recruiting a historian for the staff, and Grover said that some of the best in the government came from the Defense Department. He recommended two historians from the Pentagon – one from the army, the other from the air force. After interviewing both candidates, Rankin recommended the air force historian, forty-five-year-old Alfred Goldberg, a man of dry humor who had the instincts of a reporter. Goldberg had launched his career as a military historian while in uniform in Europe in World War II and later earned a PhD in history at John Hopkins University.”
“He was invited to meet Warren in his chambers at the Supreme Court and found the chief justice ‘very easy to talk to – friendly, pleasant, and I got to asking him questions. I asked him, why do you want to hire a historian?’ Goldberg remembered. ‘And he said – and this is a direct quotation – ‘I don’t trust all those lawyers.’”
“Goldberg had assumed Warren wanted him to write a history of the commission and that his job would be to document the work of the investigation as it went along. No, Warren said. He wanted Goldberg to bring a historian’s eye to the events of the assassination itself and to be a writer and editor of the commission’s final report. The chief justice, he said, wanted a report that read like something other than a cold legal brief.”
“Goldberg was given an office on the fourth floor of the VFW building, adjacent to one occupied by a pair of senior IRS inspectors who were trying to reconstruct Oswald’s finances. Goldberg found their work fascinating. The tax agents, Edward A. Conroy and John J. O’Brien, were excited to explain to Goldberg what they were doing. They were in search of the slightest bit of evidence that might suggest Oswald had received money from foreign agents or some other group of conspirators. Goldberg said that he was convinced that if Oswald had spent a a penny more than he earned from his assortment of menial jobs, Conroy and O’Brien would find it; there was a reason why tax payers feared an IRS audit, Goldberg now knew. ‘They got Oswald’s grocery receipts, they got everything,’ he recalled. ‘It was remarkable.’”
“Goldberg received a less friendly reception from some of the commission’s other staffers. ‘A lot of the lawyers looked rather askance at having somebody else, other than a lawyer, involved in the investigation,’ he said. He got a particularly frosty reception from Redlich, who planned to be the central author and editor of the final report and who was territorial about his authority. ‘I had the impression he was holding me at arm’s length,’ Goldberg said. ‘ He could be arrogant and high-handed.’”
For More See:
http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2015/04/alfred-goldberg-pentagon-historian.html
My interview with Professor Gerald D. McKnight, author of Breach of Trust: How The Warren Commission Failed The Nation And Why (updated 2013 paperback edition, may be heard here:
http://www.jfklancer.com/audioconversations.html
Thanks to Jeff for posting this. I don’t remember seeing it around the 50th and it’s a rare find. A quote unquote “legit” source questioning the report. They did skip my throw the book at the wall moment, I.E. Jack Ruby had no MOB connections.
I think it’s good for this country that people began having their doubts about the WC report after just a few years. As for Hoover, yes he certainly did “lie his eyes out” to the Commission members on enough occasions to make Hoover probably part of the conspiracy itself. CT people talk about the failures of the WC, but Hoover at the FBI should be blamed just as much.
Apart from being an FBI informant inside the WC, Gerald Ford doctored the final report. In its first draft, the WCR said JFK was wounded in the back. Ford changed the bullet hit to the neck (See Gerald McKnight´s Breach of Trust, p. 174). We all know why.
Even in the Foreword of its report, the WC lied by stating that it had not proceeded “as a prosecutor determined to prove a case.” (p. xiv) On the contrary, the evidence was carefully picked to support LHO guilt and both he and Ruby acting alone, as Sylvia Meagher demonstrated in Accessories After the Fact. The WC even ignored evidence collected in its own 26 volumes whenever it contradicted the prosecutorial conclusions, which were predetermined as soon as LHO was killed.