Why was George de Mohrenschildt important?

43 comments

  1. I’m glad the narrator said “apparent” suicide of DeMorenschilde, because I’m not so sure it was a suicide. Wasn’t he in the middle of providing testimony to the HSCA?(that is, he’d already testified once, and was scheduled to again).

  2. Ramon F Herrera says:

    I would like to renew my call for some informed comments.

    I am extremely puzzled about De Mohrenschildt: How can a person involved so deeply (according to us CTs) tell us so much (books, interviews, etc.) and remain untouched by the mud, unflappable? Was he an extremely competent liar? Professionals with better training than him (Phillips, Angleton) in the art of deception became very nervous and walked out of congressional hearings!

    What is the CT version? I seem to recall that it was something like:

    “GDM surreptitiously enticed Lee to order a rifle by mail, take some photos and dedicate one to him”.

    I am aware that while Lee bragged about not being manipulable, he was just the opposite … IF the right force (FBI, rich and fancy white Russians, etc.) was pulling the puppeteer strings.

    • gerald campau says:

      Ramond i think deM was unaware of the big pichure of why he and Jeanne were babysitting the Oswalds but they where perfect couple to manipulable them into stituation that even LHO feared he was been set up that on Nov 9/63 he was looking for new job but strings where two tight to break loose.

  3. “Can a government investigate itself adequately? No I don’t think it can.” ~Gaeton Fonzi

    I think de Mohrenschildt is important because both he and his wife who knew the Oswald’s did not believe Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy, and said do in sworn testimony.

    He is also important because of the unbelievable coincidence of the timing of his death. This coupled with the fact of others with close ties to the assassination had been murdered, scores by this late date.
    \\][//

  4. bogman says:

    I’m beginning to side with Vince Salandria on this – the JFK case is a false mystery.

    GMD was in touch with the CIA with Moore in Dallas before he struck up a friendship with Oswald and afterward in DC with Anikeef before leaving for the gravy train in Haiti.

    In what world does the best friend of an accused presidential assassin who contacts the CIA about him prior to the crime and gets a plum contract courtesy of the US govt NOT prove conspiracy?

    The details are still and maybe always be murky. But you don’t hide files for 50 years because they prove a lone nut did it.

    • “But you don’t hide files for 50 years because they prove a lone nut did it.”~bogman

      Exactly!
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      • Photon says:

        No you hide them because they contain sensitive intelligence and intelligence gathering techniques the release of which may harm the national security of the United States.
        Frankly, when all is said and done there is absolutely no proof of any other explanation.
        You could just as easily claim that the records may show that JFK was communicating with aliens and that flying saucers are real-with the same amount of evidence put out by conspiracy buffs,ie. none.

        • bogman says:

          I think you’re smarter than that, Photon.

          When a government intelligence agency hides the files and identity of the agency’s handler of assets who interfaced with a presidential assassin weeks before the crime, and then subverts a Congressional investigation by putting him in charge of said files….

          Well, that isn’t anyway for a democracy to act, now, is it?

        • Sam says:

          PROJECT ENIGMA DURING WW2 A SECURITY BREACH, ACCORDING TO PHOTON?

          Surely you don’t believe that, Photon. It’s been over 50 years now.

          Following your logic, Project Enigma, the breaking of the Nazi codes, should never have been released to the public, and Alan Turing’s work should be hushed up immediately! The movie about him should be yanked from Amazon and from the theatres. That’s sensitive WW2 intelligence!

    • bogman says:

      I’ll add another third-party corroboration:

      CIA contract agent William Gaudet, the guy behind Oswald in line for the Mexico visa, confirmed he saw Oswald on the street in NO with Bannister. Gaudet and his wife knew Bannister socially.

      It was either a government-based conspiracy or GROSS stupidity, you decide.

      I don’t think the CIA generally gets fooled by the likes of Oswald. More the other way around. So my bet’s on the former.

      • Stephen Roy says:

        We don’t know that Gaudet was “behind Oswald in line for the Mexico visa.” His was the next name on the list; He could have been there at a different time of day.

        • David Regan says:

          While it was perhaps pure coincidence they both went into the Consulate one after the other, Gaudet later claimed Oswald had been “known to him” in New Orleans.

          He had observed Oswald handing out leaflets on several occasions; assessed him as a “very nervous, frail, weak man”. Gaudet also observed Oswald with Guy Banister, discussing things. His office was close to Banister’s at 544 Camp St.

          Gaudet did not believe Oswald killed JFK, saying “I he was a patsy. He was set up on purpose”.

          • Stephen Roy says:

            A cross-examiner would wonder why Gaudet reported none of this to the FBI investigation of 1963, the Warren Commission investigation of 1964, the Garrison investigation of 1967, the Clay Shaw trial of 1969 or the early days of the House Select Committee on Assassinations.

  5. Thomas says:

    de Mohrenschildt allegedly shot himself in the mouth. Rather than being a suicide, being shot in the mouth is a warning that others better not talk or they’ll wind up the same way.

    • Ramon F Herrera says:

      Thomas:

      For reasons that need no explanation, the outside cranial bones are very hard and strong, while the bones inside the skull are very weak.

      There have been cases in which the person attempting suicide points at the classical location (temple), but with the wrong angle and the bullet bounces.

      A mouth location provides a nearly impossible miss.

      Back to “The Baron” I can’t help but wonder whether he chose suicide in order to protect Alexandra?

      http://patriot.net/~ramon/jfk/Alexandra.png

      • Thomas says:

        I understand your point but still propose that if it was murder it fits the bill in terms of the message.

      • gerald campau says:

        Ramon F Herrera – ##De M was business partners with Mohamed Al Fayed in 1964. Fayed had an affair with Alexandra de Mohrenschildt and James Angleton of the CIA was interested in this
        http://www.ciajfk.com/timeline.html
        This sight list over 100 CIA people acquainted with deM and his brother but in mind they ignore his most important contact Col Boris Pash who likely instagated deM sojourn in Yukaslavia for Army intelligence Pash had more then passing interest in Yukaslavia as his grandfather was high ranking Bishop in Yukaslavia as well as in San Francisco. His Grandfather died in Kosavo. Pash also had relationship with Jeanne brother throu Manhattan Project.

  6. gemini says:

    I’m not so sure it was suicide any longer either because of what I’ve been reading on this website. Maybe no one else pulled the trigger but perhaps he had a visitor who gave him encouragement.
    Always wondered about what kind of a friendship George D had with LHO. George was not always complimentary about LHO and family and at times I felt he was setting LHO up or at least encouraging him to action. Why would he be considered such a good friend to LHO? I can’t accept it somehow. Perhaps he had a guilt complex for his role in the situation. And LHO should have been more careful concerning friends. LHO told his brother once about his nice friends, Michael and Ruth Paine. His brother answered, “those aren’t your friends”.

    • Fearfaxer says:

      That’s an interesting quote, I assume it was from Robert Oswald. From what I understand, right after the assassination he removed Marina and the two little girls from Ruth Paine’s house and did all he could to prevent contact between the two women. He completely distrusted Ruth. If he ever gave an explanation as to why, I’m not aware of it.

  7. Ronnie Wayne says:

    He’s important because HE links Oswald to the CIA by his own contact with them regarding O. We can discuss other potential links to the CIA like Atsugi, USSR defection, Minox cameras all day. But De Mohrenschild told Epstien “I would have never contacted Oswald in a million years if Moore ha not sanctioned it.”.
    By the same token he indirectly (maybe directly?) connects Oswald to members of the Dallas Petroleum Club. Remember the letter to Mr. Hunt? H.L, the richest man in America? GHWB who was “not” in the CIA, and was “not” the George Bush briefed about the assassination by Hoover. Clint Murchison, Hoovers race track buddy that paid for his annual vacation. Harold Dry Hole Byrd owner of the TSBD who was conveniently on an Africa hunting trip during the assassination but later had “the” window frame Oswald shot from moved to his house for a conversation piece.

  8. David Regan says:

    A tape-recorder, left running that afternoon to record the soap operas for Mrs. Tilton, recorded the beep of the alarm system right before the sound of the gunshot and another beep a few minutes afterwards.
    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/death2.txt

    According to Detective Gary T. Green’s crime scene report, no fingerprints were found on the .20-gauge Ithaca double-barrel shotgun that was found at the scene.
    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/death2.txt

    On May 11th 1978, Jeanne de Mohrenschildt gave an interview to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, where she said that she did not accept that her husband had committed suicide
    http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKdemohrenschildt.htm

    • Ronnie Wayne says:

      Notable: In the spartacus-edu link on de Mohrenschildt above.

      In the reference/sources section near the bottom;
      from the Jim Marrs/Crossfire section. “several aspects caused Chief Investigator Capt. Richard Sheets of the Palm County Sheriff’s Office to term the shooting very strange”.
      Yet we have the coroner telling Mark Lane “we’re not going into that/you know why/it’s bigger than all of us”.

      Below that section from a magazine article by Dick Russell:
      “CIA contract employee Herb Atkins…certain he knew him as Philip Harbin…he ran me in the late 50’s”

  9. Jean Davison says:

    “This weapon was later processed for the presence of latent fingerprints; however, none were developed, largely due to the heavy concentration of blood on the barrel and stock of the
    weapon.”
    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/death2.txt

    Besides, it’s not at all unusual to find no latent fingerprints on a firearm.

  10. Roy W Kornbluth says:

    Monday I had the great good fortune to speak by phone with Joan Mellen on the Allan Handelman radio show, about George de M. and O’Riley’s laughable tall-tales. Ms Mellen stressed that deM was set to have lunch the next day with very wealthy Joe Dryer about large-scale raising of something like jute– kenax(?), I couldn’t catch it exactly. This was a very big deal for deM, who had fallen on very hard times. The CIA had abandoned him; he had failed at nearly everything, even trying to squeeze a few bucks out of Duvalier in Haiti; and basically he was living on the goodwill of friends and relatives.
    Couple all that with: 1.he had just left EJ Epstein after a lengthy interview and planned for more; 2.he expected to testify soon to HSCA; 3.his memoir he’d been trying to finish for 10 years, aptly titled “I Am a Patsy!”, was once again important to him. QED: G de M had a lot to live for, for the first time in a long time.
    Joan Mellen also said something I’ve never heard or read before: the maid (only other person in house) heard a car drive off post haste within seconds of the shotgun blast.
    I asked JM if she thought ex-Cubans “suicided” deM because I’ve always heard and read that G de M was convinced that Cubans who had been released from Bay of Pigs were the driving force behind the Coup de 63. Answer, paraphrased: No. G de M was a snob who was fairly disgusted by dark Caribbean types; even though he’d spent much time there, he stayed in enclaves of the wealthy and the white. It was most likely a high-dollar American mafia hitman, maybe gaining entrance with a ruse.
    Thank goodness for Marie Fonzi saving Gaeton’s tapes. Two things: This info about George de M could be the lever that opens the oyster of the Lazy Stream Media caring about the JFK assassination, AND Billy O’Biley didn’t get away with his millionth whopper. Which could be past critical mass for America’s thought processes, which could bring on Armageddon, which could bring on more “reality” TV.
    Oh jeez, you guys, I almost forget. Tonight Rachel Maddow’s first quarter lampooned The Bilious One; you know, Johnny-on-the-Spot O’Riley who might not even have been there the next DAY.

    • Sam says:

      IS DE MOHRENSCHILDT AMONG THE RECORDS CIA IS STILL WITHHOLDING?

      I’d like to know if anyone knows if the late George de Mohrenschildt’s records relating to Oswald are still being kept secret by CIA, among the files that Jefferson Morley has been trying to get released?

      This may be a key to the case indeed.

  11. Allen Lowe says:

    his alleged fear of dark people doesn’t add up; toward the end of his life he taught at an all-black college, and this was in the Southwest, which indicates an even greater sense of tolerance. So Mellen is not to be taken seriously.

    • Roy W Kornbluth says:

      Allen: YES, thank you so much. I thought that was very strange, esp. in light of de M’s later life, but I didn’t have time to object. And in de M’s “I Am a Patsy” on the web, he notes in a few places, something like, “I (like and) take in stray dogs and stray people.” Now, de M DID have a justified fear of volatile, angry people, of which the ex-Cubans circa early-60’s may be the world’s most extreme example.
      George and Jeanne both wanted to alleviate the sufferings of the poor. What they, and the rest of the Russian emigre community, did for Marina alone is above and beyond. That cannot be explained ONLY by CIA prompting and hopes for deals with the Haitian govt.
      I believe Joan Mellen is looking at the entirety of de M’s life; early on, he was quite the opportunistic fascist in desperate times. But, like a true Russian, he had quite the capacity to change.

  12. Fearfaxer says:

    Just thought this might be a good idea to add this thought here:

    Even if George de Mohrenschildt actually did put that shotgun barrel in his mouth and pull the trigger, he might have been forced to take the Colonel Redl option. That is to say, he was given the message that either he kill himself, or he would be killed by others, and if others to do it, they would make it as slow and unpleasant an ordeal as they could.

    To find out who Colonel Redl was, here’s a link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Redl

  13. James says:

    If any of you read the world news you’ll be familiar with the current affair in Argentina whereby a state prosecutor was found dead having shot himself in the head…hours before he was due to attend a hearing and potentially expose the president of Argentina of complicity in a cover up of a historical terrorist attack involving Iran.

    The official report is that he shot himself in the head in his home. No suicide note, no real reason and due to blow the lid of something big. Sound familiar? DMC didn’t kill himself.

  14. Ronnie Wayne says:

    In re-reading the section in “Hit List” by Richard Belzer and David Wayne I came across something I’d forgotten. (pg. 233)
    “CIA agent Hugh Huggins did Special work for the Kennedy’s. … the little visit he paid to de Mohrenchildt right after the assassination…specific direction of Attorney General Robert Kennedy.”
    “Huggins also stated he knew George de Mohorenschildt to be a veteran CIA contract agent”.
    “Huggins obtained information…included breaking two of George de Mohrenschildt fingers to inspire the level of cooperation he demanded”.
    “Huggins concluded the planning and organization for the assassination were clearly performed by George de Mohrenschildt and David Ferrie, both of whom were veteran CIA players; and that George de Mohrenschildt was actually present in Dallas on the day of the assassination, even though his alibi states otherwise”
    “Huggins stated further that the death of George de Mohrenschildt by shotgun was actually murder, not suicide.”

    This is sourced back to “JFK: Breaking the Silence”, Bill Sloan, 1993.

    A web search turned up this:

    https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?2832-The-Chameleon#.VPjuuCyaVD0

    Note: the discussion at the end seems to bear some doubt.

    Has anyone else read of verification or it being disinformation?

  15. Jordan says:

    Ol’ Phil Harbin was a real enigmatic guy….He spent the 50’s and 60’s walking and working his way around the world, but especially Central and South America avoiding the most harrowing situations.

    One of his ‘arranged’ wives was even born in the city of Harbin, China. How unusually coincidental is that…?

    One of his ‘arranged’ wives had actually been in business with Zapruder…

    Even stranger is the fact that his brother was involved with CIA, RFE, VoA, et al…

    Further coincidence is borne out in the fact that he knew the BigOil and MI folks all too well for his own good…

    I could go on, but his life is on par with that of LHO for unusual karma and coincidence….

    • Ronnie Wayne says:

      Please do elaborate. I just read about the Phil Harbin pseudonym yesterday.

    • gerald campau says:

      Jordan you have forgotten the Polish cavalry but i don’t think he had white stallion like lone ranger, only the mule that Albert Osborne looked after well they lit up cities in Honduras and Guatemala .

  16. max says:

    This may be out of place here and irrelevant but something he said cleared something up for me. There is a lot of controversy about whether or not Oswald owned a rifle and did he practice with it before the assassination. His wife, Marina, always did maintain that he owned a rifle, although she wasn’t exactly certain of what exactly it looked like, saying that to her, one rifle was just like another. She also maintained that Lee cared for it and did target practice……”De Mohrenschildt recalled a visit to the Oswslds’ in the spring of 1963 during which Marina displayed a rifle that her husband had just bought. She mocked the purchase saying, “That crazy idiot is target-shooting all the time”. De Mohrenchildt recalled asking Oswald why he bought the weapon. ‘I like target-shooting”,he replied.” Marina often is not considered a reliable witness but here is someone else in agreement with her.

    • David Regan says:

      Max, the statement quoted by De Mohrenchildt is one of many contemporaneous statements the WC published that go against the rules of hearsay. With Oswald dead and buried, they had carte blanche to publish hearsay statements that would never have been admissible at trial.

      Regardless, in terms of Oswald practicing with the rifle, Marina’s statements were inconsistent.

      An FBI report of an interview with Marina Oswald on December 3rd 1963, states that “Marina said she had never seen Oswald practice with his rifle or any other firearm and he had never told her that he was going to practice” http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=171593

      A Secret Service report on December 4th of an interview with Marina states “that she never saw Lee going out or coming in to the house with a rifle and that he never mentioned to her doing any practice with a rifle.” http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=143631

      On top of that, in the WC Executive Session of January 27th 1964, council J. Lee Rankin discussed Oswald’s proficiency with a rifle, “there are a good many stories about his practicing with a gun, you know, around various rifle ranges and so forth. We have checked them out, and none of them stand up at all.” http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1328&relPageId=83

      • max says:

        I see you that you are someone here who trusts the intelligence community, testimony from the FBI etc. I’m not so sure I do. I would think that they would be protecting themselves in this matter and covering up. If they admit that Oswald was doing any target practice, they are open again to the fact that they didn’t do their job in realizing he might pose a threat. I’ve just read too much about Oswald and his rifle to ignore it. Perhaps he wasn’t the best but if things went his way that day…..perhaps we’ll never know.

        • David Regan says:

          Or perhaps it wasn’t the real Oswald at these target range sightings, just as the story of car salesman Albert Bogard or T.F. White in Oak Cliff on the day of the assassination.

          • max says:

            A good point, David. I don’t even think I pointed out an actual sighting here. Just the word of two people who might not be reliable. The fact that they were in agreement caught my attention. Sometimes it isn’t easy to find two witnesses who agree. But what you say has merit. There were many false sightings of Oswald which we have to take into consideration.

  17. gerry campeau says:

    Dr Wood testimony looks to be honest

    http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/wood_h.htm
    Mr. LIEBELER We want to question you about the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald was at the Sports Drome Rifle Range at 8000 West Davis Street in Dallas, Tex., sometime during November 1963—before going into the details of that particular incident, please state your full name for the record.
    Dr. WOOD. Homer Wood.
    Mr. LIEBELER. You are a dentist, is that correct?

  18. David Regan says:

    FBI director J. Edgar Hoover apparently did notice that there was a de Mohrenschildt-Paine parallel of a classified nature whose public revelation could threaten the credibility of the Warren Commission. Hoover wrote a letter to J. Lee Rankin on October 23, 1 964, urging him not to release certain FBI “reports and memoranda dealing with Michael and Ruth Paine and George and Jeanne de Mohrenschildt.” Hoover warned Rankin: “Making the contents of such documents available to the public could cause serious repercussions to the Commission.”
    (J. Edgar Hoover Letter to J. Lee Rankin, October 23, 1 964. FBI Record Number 124-10147-10006. Agency File Number 105-126128-1sT NR 120.)

  19. Tommy Wilkens says:

    In our in depth research and study for our new and upcoming book
    “WALKING THE RAZOR’S EDGE” The Dutchman And The Baron is a up close look at journalist Willem Oltmans life and his close intimate friendship that revealed the secret and private lives of George and Jeanne de Mohrenschildt and their involvement with Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President John F. Kennedy .Oltmans archives revealed that George de Mohrenschildt was a master of multiple personalities and a seasoned undercover intelligence operative that could create an unbreakable cover story for almost any situation. . Always two steps ahead always playing his role out in the shadows. Denial of any involvement was his standard. A highly polished intellectual that lived his complex life out as if almost a James Bond type figure. Traveling the world ostensibly as an international businessman allowed de Mohrenschildt entry into some of the most dangerous places in the world were few would even dare to venture. Records of de Mohrenschildt’s overseas ventures would reveal a pattern that placed him in cities and countries just before a coup or an invasion or an assassination or a covert or overt operation was unfolding. And all were past off as a mere coincidence.And just a coincidence that de Mohrenschildt was close friends with Lee Harvey Oswald only months leading up to President Kennedy’s assassination.And just a coincidence that de Mohrenschildt was a former friend of George H. W. Bush and another coincidence that de Mohrenschildt had corresponded with Lyndon Johnson and the coincidences just go on and on !!! Only days before Oltmans death he had arranged that his files and archives would be kept in a safe location in Den Haag The Netherlands so that just maybe one day someone would come along and take a second look at his investigation of George de Mohrenschildt and the John Kennedy assassination .”WALKING THE RAZOR’S EDGE” The Dutchman And The Baron is that second look ..

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