More on Oswald’s job

 Dan Mishkin’s comments about the evolution of his thinking about JFK’s assassination provoked dozens of indignant comments, almost all of which failed to address his central point.

Mishkin said he found it “hard to place Oswald as a member (or dupe) of any conspiracy, largely because of the timing of his getting the job at the Texas School Book Depository and the announcement of the motorcade route.”

One of the few comments to address this point was this:

“The trip to Dallas was delayed several times. John Connally was directly involved with the changed motorcade route. It also appears that Ruth and Michael Paine, along with George De Mohrenschildt had a lot to do with maneuvering Oswald into a job at the TSBD. Once Oswald was in position, the route was adjusted, and Boom, job finished. ”

This is unconvincing in many ways.

“It appears” is a weak formulation. No evidence was provided for this claim about Ruth Paine. Another reader provided a link to Education Forum article on Michael Paine, which makes the undocumented claim that Michael Paine collected information on Castro supporters.

It is true that Ruth Paine and her family associated with people in the intelligence business. That does not constitute evidence that she arranged for Oswald’s job.

The reader’s claim is factually weak on another one point. I know of no evidence that George de Mohrenshchildt had anything to do with Oswald getting a job in October 1963. De Mohrenschildt last saw Lee and Marina Oswald in Dallas in April 1963 and had little contact with him afterwords.

I know of no evidence that the people who set the motorcade route knew that Oswald was in Dallas.

So Mishkin’s point in defense of the Warren Commission remains unanswered. I’m still trying to answer the question above. Only relevant comments with documentation will be published.

 

 

128 comments

  1. allen lowe says:

    1) think about it, Jeff – Mishkin’s objections prove the opposite of what he says the imply – if the decision to kill, like the route, was such a last-minute, spontaneous, ACCIDENTAL thing, why did Oswald order the rifle ahead, and start being “seen” at rifle ranges, and doing other “incriminating” pre- assassination activities like forming imaginary pro-Castro organizations? In other words, if Mishkin’s statement shows no conspiracy, it also shows that Oswald was uninvolved in the assassination – how could he have gotten it together with such last minute hopes?

    2) Jeff, number 2 – you need to keep up better on current research, which tells us that assassins were stalking JFK, in Miami and Chicago – and Dallas is where everything just came together; so it was not like Dallas was make-or-break; it was part of a long-term plan. Everything matched.

    3) and more on current literature – as Vince Palamara’s recent work indicates, the responsibility for the choosing of the route is unclear and filled with contradictory testimony, implications of Secret Service treachery and distortions (they kept blaming JFK for the incredibly dangerous building exposure; they lied about O’donnell requesting it; they lied about the necessity of entering the highway after the turn). It is all quite suspect. And there is no clear line of evidence on WHEN it was initially disclosed and by whom.

    4) and it’s all irrelevant anyway, Jeff, if you look at your own web site and watch McLellan’s more-than-compelling testimony on JFK’s wounds, which prove conclusively that there were at least 2 shooters.

  2. gerald campeau says:

    Jeff it was as easy as Tic Tac Toe. Place Frazier at TSBD,place LHO at TSBD and Sorrels and Lawson will follow up.
    know of no evidence that the people who set the motorcade route knew that Oswald was in Dallas – Come on Jeff the FBI knew,afterall they had been tracking him since 1960.

  3. Dan says:

    For what it is worth, the Warren Commission rather closely questioned Michael Paine about his background, including his security cleared job at Bell Helicopter and family. Allen Dulles participated in this questioning. Paine was asked about his natural father, Lyman Paine, who was known as a leading Trotskyite in the United States.

    • “Lyman Paine, who was known as a leading Trotskyite in the United States.”~Dan

      If one knows the history of the Neo-Con movement, they were in the beginning Trotskyites:

      “The neoconservatives are often depicted as former Trotskyites who have morphed into a new, closely related life form. It is pointed out that many early neocons — including The Public Interest founder Irving Kristol and coeditor Nathan Glazer, Sidney Hook, and Albert Wohlstetter — belonged to the anti-Stalinist far left in the late 1930s and early 1940s, and that their successors, including Joshua Muravchik, and Carl Gershman, came to neoconservatism through the Socialist Party at a time when it was Trotskyite in outlook and politics.”
      http://www.rense.com/general39/meets.htm
      \\][//

      • Dan says:

        Michael Paine’s step-father, Arthur Young, invented the original Bell helicopter. A later version, Bell’s UH “Huey” helicopter, attained iconic status in the Vietnam war.

        • Yup Dan, and the Vietnam war made a lot of money for Bell with those “Huey” helicopters didn’t they? A war that would not have expanded under Kennedy. This is why the Military Industrial Complex is the prime suspect in the assassination.
          \\][//

  4. First off, Oswald was not in position to kill anybody, and was set up as the Designated Patsy, not the Sixth Floor Sniper – who wore a white shirt, not a brown one as Oswald was wearing, and he had a bald spot on the top of his head, a distinguishing mark not shared by Oswald.

    While DeMohrenshcildt didn’t have anything to do with getting him the job at the TSBD he did assist Oswald in getting the job at the Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval graphics arts firm, where they placed arrows and captions on aerial recon photos for the Army, including U2 photos of the USSR and Cuba. Oswald worked at JCS during the Cuban Missile Crisis and may have placed the arrows and captions on the U2 photos that the President saw himself. Oswald also worked at JCS when he ordered the pistol and rifle and was working on the detailed time chart on the day he is supposed to have picked up the rifle and pistol at a distant post office. On the day he is supposed to have picked up these weapons, his time chart indicates that he was working for a JCS client – the advertising agency that handled the publicity and route for the motorcade, which was handled by a female agency employee who later went to work for another agency – the CIA.

    Ruth Paine made the phone call to the TSBD and arranged for Oswald’s employment there. Ruth Hyde Paine’s mother-in-law – Michael’s mom – Ruth Forbes Paine Young – was a close personal friend of Mary Bancroft – Allen Dulles’ secretary and special agent on the Valkyrie operation – a Hitler assassination plot that was adopted as one of the CIA plots to kill Castro.

    Saying that all of these facts are irrelevant and that Oswald was just a deranged lone nut – belies the facts that indicate he was set up as the Patsy, just as he claimed, and that deMohrenschildt and the Paines were instrumental, intentionally or not, in setting him up as the Designated Patsy.

    Bill Kelly
    JFKCountercoup.blogspot.com

    • Ronnie Wayne says:

      So Ruth Paine called Roy Truly, manager of Harold Dry Hole Byrd’s TSBD building while Byrd is a member of the elite Dallas Petroleum Club with George DeMorenschild to get LHO a job.
      No evidence there but damn suspicious and bears further investigation if possible based on Ruth and Michael Paines family backgrounds and connections.
      “George later admitted he got in contact with Oswald at the request of Dallas CIA station chief J Walton Moore.” pg. 194, Destiny Betrayed.

      • Dan says:

        Roy Truly worked for the Texas School Book Depository which was a tenant in the building owned by D.H. Byrd. I am not aware that Byrd owned any part of the TSBD company, as opposed to the building.

      • Frank says:

        Truly stated he was building superintendent in his testimony to the WC, so this was in addition to hiring and firing for the TSBD company.

        Also in his testimony to the WC when he described his interview and hire of Oswald after receiving the call from Mrs. Paine; there is a piece missing. He hired Oswald on the spot (which immediately took Oswald off the street). Who authorized it and when? Obviously he had prior approval to make a temporary hire. There were renovations going on in the building and who knows what other expenditures occurring that might prohibit any spending on a temporary hire. It’s not a unilateral decision. Who told him it was ok to hire someone and when, if it was left to him to decide who to hire? Those details could show manipulation.

        • Ronnie Wayne says:

          As the author of the article linked below states I’m sure many will dismiss it as pure speculation. However it does bring up some points I’ve read of elsewhere over the years and at least one new one for me.
          I’ve read somewhere before about Truly and Baker seeing Oswald near the 1st floor entrance when the first entered the building. Didn’t Oswald say something in his interrogation about seeing Truly and an officer “down front” or something to that effect.
          I had never read about Truly laying off 8 people the day before Oswald was hired. Has anyone else ever read of this? If so where.
          I’ve also read that Baker’s initial report mentioned nothing of the break room/coke incident but did mention seeing someone on the 3rd or 4th floor Truly identified as an employee.

  5. Mishkin said he found it “hard to place Oswald as a member (or dupe) of any conspiracy, largely because of the timing of his getting the job at the Texas School Book Depository and the announcement of the motorcade route.”

    This is part of the evolution of his thinking as noted. But surely one cannot rest the entire case on this one matter.

    Does Mishkin not have some responsibility to stand to the other points the critics of the Warren Commission addressed in the thread addressed to Mishkin’s book?
    \\][//

  6. Bob Prudhomme says:

    I’m glad I went to Dallas years ago and saw Dealey Plaza for myself. The “last minute change to the motorcade route” is a red herring that has plagued JFK research ever since Garrison mistakenly conceived it. Quite simply put, you cannot get to the Stemmons Freeway from Main St. because of the concrete divider between the two streets, put there many years before the assassination to prevent cars from Main St. from crossing in front of Elm St. through traffic.

    That being said, do you really have to know the “official” parade route to plan an assassination? There were two very obvious possibilities that existed months before the 22nd; JFK landing at Love Field, and JFK having lunch at the Trade Mart. A quick look at a map of Dallas would show an obvious route going down Main St., and, after that, it was a simple matter of looking for the choke points on the route. The 120° turn onto Elm St. was not planned, it was discovered by close scrutiny of a map and utilized.

    However, do you think there was only one patsy being set up that day as an assassin? If we use our imaginations, it is not hard to conceive there were several teams of shooters along the parade route who, for various reasons, did not get the “go” signal that day. The shooting at Dealey Plaza might have been aborted just as easily if JFK had been any later, and the TSBD crew had returned to the 6th floor. We can only guess at how many attempts had been aborted before they succeeded that day.

    Something interesting to do would be to go over the parade route and see if there were any other choke points, and then see if anything odd was noticed at these places on the 22nd.

    • David Power says:

      Excellent thinking outside the box.It is something I have always felt while watching zapruder , this is a pro job .
      The idea that oswald just got the job last minute and decided the night before to grab the rifle etc and stole in to the 6th floor after harold norman had left pulled off the sniping job of the century and then went for a coke is implausible.
      JFK was never ever gonna get out of dealey plaza alive once they gave the green for go.There was a team for sure.

  7. Arnaldo M Fernandez says:

    Mishkin’s conclusion: “Oswald was the only person who fired a weapon in Dealey Plaza that day,” is not supported by conclusive evidence. WC got the wrong weapon, the wrong bullets, and even the wrong shells.

    • that’s right Arnold…and as for the shells, they had the wrong NUMBER of them, suggesting the possibility that only two shots were fired from the “Nest”, which would clinch a conspiracy since it was reported to all the world that there were 3 from there. Maybe the other guy Arnold Rowland saw fired the 3rd(the guy from the window on the opposite side of the “nest”.

  8. H.P. Albarelli Jr. says:

    Conspiracy advocates seem to only favor coincidence when it works in favor of their arguments. The Paines seem to be a couple that everyone seems to dislike, hate, or, worse yet, claim to be assets or agents of nefarious forces– yet where is the evidence? That Michael was questioned about his Trotskyite father seems to work against all claims…that assassins were stalking JFK in Chicago appears to lack any true nexus to Dallas. I suffer from favoring solid evidence with any heaps of speculation.

  9. Walthers took part in the search of the home of Ruth Paine. Walthers told Eric Tagg that they “found six or seven metal filing cabinets full of letters, maps, records and index cards with names of pro-Castro sympathizers.” James DiEugenio has argued that this “cinches the case that the Paines were domestic surveillance agents in the Cold War against communism.”

    Attempts were made by Jim Garrison to persuade Walthers to testify at the Clay Shaw trial. In June, 1968, Walthers reported a bombing outside his home in Oak Cliff. It has been suggested that this was an attempt to warn him off talking to investigators such as Garrison about what he knew about the assassination of John F. Kennedy. The Shaw trial was due to take place in February, 1969.

    On 10th January, 1969, Bill Decker sent Walthers and Alvin Maddox to a motel to question Walter Cherry, an escaped convict and a man suspected of a double murder. When the two detectives entered the room Buddy Walthers was shot dead by Cherry.
    http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwalthersB.htm
    \\][//

    • H.P. Albarelli Jr. says:

      What “case that the Paines were domestic surveillance agents in the Cold War against communism”? And, even if they were [absent any real evidence] what does this prove? –So are we to assume that Walter Cherry was also a nefarious asset or agent? and that he shot Walthers under orders from the CIA or FBI or both? [Should I be concerned that I have 10 filing cabinets full of docs, letters, records and index cards in my office? Is that a dead giveaway that “cinches” I’m a nefarious actor?]

      • Bob Prudhomme says:

        Mr. Albarelli

        Any suggestions as to what “…..six or seven metal filing cabinets full of letters, maps, records and index cards with names of pro-Castro sympathizers.” were doing in the Paine’s garage?

      • “case that the Paines were domestic surveillance agents in the Cold War against communism”? And, even if they were [absent any real evidence] what does this prove?”~H.P. Albarelli Jr.

        Just that, they were domestic surveillance agents.

        As per Walter Cherry, he was an escaped convict. It could be argued that he was assisted in his escape, in fact I will postulate that he was. As Buddy Walthers had spoken up about said files, and was being urged by Garrison to testify to such at the Shaw trial, that Walthers himself was set up by Decker and Alvin Maddox for elimination.

        One has to consider back-story in such situations where the MO of the National Security State is such that it has proven links to Paperclip Nazis, Walter Dornberger being one. Walter Dornberger was a vice president of Bell Aerospace Corporation. We have already established that connection to the Paines.

        There are many more connections that are outlined at the following link:
        http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_globalelite28.htm
        \\][//

        • H.P. Albarelli Jr. says:

          So, now we link Project Paperclip to the JFK assassination and the Paines through the “National Security State.” And I suppose Walter Cherry spent the rest of his life in prison because he disliked the National Security State so much or that it provided his family [if he had one] with a lifetime supply of Snickers bars? Suffice it to say that I think Garrison was somewhat a misguided soul who frequently walked the line of absurdity. –Yes, Bob, I suspect most of those cabinets contained Michael Paine’s materials, all of which we searched by several law enforcement agencies and others, but I’m sure some would say those folks were also in on “it” and that they were servants of the “National Security State.” Years back I interviewed Ruth, when she lived close-by, and found her to be quite honest and forthcoming, as well as sincere in her efforts to help Marina Oswald. That she thinks Lee Oswald was somewhat a creep in understandable given her experience.

          • Bob Prudhomme says:

            Mr. Albarelli

            I’m happy for you that you found Mrs. Paine so charming. However, you still haven’t told me what you believe was the reason for “…..six or seven metal filing cabinets full of letters, maps, records and index cards with names of pro-Castro sympathizers.” to be in the Paine’s garage.

          • David Regan says:

            At the time the three police officers approached the front door of the Paine residence, Lee Harvey Oswald was already in custody but his name was not broadcast over the news until 2:43 PM. There are people that have suspected that Ruth Paine knew more about Lee Oswald and the assassination then she ever let on.
            http://www.jfk.org/go/exhibits/chaos/timeline-200-300pm

          • “Yes, Bob, I suspect most of those cabinets contained Michael Paine’s materials, all of which we searched by several law enforcement agencies and others, but I’m sure some would say those folks were also in on “it” and that they were servants of the “National Security State.” ~Albarelli

            Oh yes indeed since some 40 to 50 of the Dallas PD were members of Military Intelligence according to Jack Crichton.
            \\][//

          • H.P. Albarelli Jr. says:

            Yes, I did, Bob. Read the entire thread here.

          • I don’t think Ruth Paine was “in on it” – she just did what she did – served as the babysitter for the Oswald family – and she didn’t think Oswald was a “creep” when she wrote to her father about him a week before the assassination and described him as a good father. Allen Dulles didn’t ask Michael Paine about his mother – and her close friendship with his most important agent during WWII – Mary Bancroft, or their assistance to the Valkyrie plot to kill Hitler would have come out. It didn’t.

          • Jean Davison says:

            David,

            “At the time the three police officers approached the front door of the Paine residence, Lee Harvey Oswald was already in custody but his name was not broadcast over the news until 2:43 PM.”

            The cops didn’t arrive at the Paine house until approximately 3:30 PM:

            http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=333187

          • David Regan says:

            Ruth Paine told the Warren Commission that there had been no suggestion on the news that Lee was involved in the assassination “until the time the officers came to the door.”
            http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=16277

            Marina Oswald was asked by the Warren Commission if Mrs. Paine had said “anything about the possibility of your husband being involved” to which Marina replied that she hadn’t.
            http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=37&relPageId=86

            Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers said in his testimony to the Warren Commission that when they arrived at the Paine home “it didn’t appear that they [Marina Oswald and Ruth Paine] knew that Oswald had been arrested at all – the way they talked.”
            http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=18158

          • Ronnie Wayne says:

            Jean and David, ONE of your sources must be wrong.

      • “Should I be concerned that I have 10 filing cabinets full of docs, letters, records and index cards in my office? Is that a dead giveaway that “cinches” I’m a nefarious actor?” ~Albarelli

        Hmmm…? If they happen to be the same 10 filing cabinets that were removed from the Paine’s residence. Are they?
        \\][//

        • H.P. Albarelli Jr. says:

          Sure, of course they are.

          • The 112th Military Intelligence Group:

            “James Powell, an Army Intelligence agent then involved in the surveillance of domestic dissidents, was present, and dressed in civilian clothes, in the Texas School Book Depository building in Dallas, 10 minutes after the shooting. And his unit, 112th Intelligence Group, did indeed have a file on a self-styled, and seemingly non-violent, Marxist named Lee Harvey Oswald….Like thousands of Dallasites that bright November day, Powell had taken the day off to watch the President and First Lady….After hearing the shots, Powell, who was a block away from Dealey Plaza, immediately ran to the vicinity. His first reaction was to take a picture of the TSBD because several people were pointing to it as the source of the rifle fire. He then raced over to check out the commotion around the “grassy knoll,” identifying himself as “Special Agent Powell,” and thereby creating rumors of a mysterious federal agent at the seen.” (“The Washington Spectator,” May 15, 1997)
            \\][//

          • H.P. Albarelli Jr. says:

            That’s nothing new on James Powell. He was interviewed several times by the FBI.

        • “That’s nothing new on James Powell. He was interviewed several times by the FBI.”~H.P. Albarelli Jr.

          Of course Albarelli, that is where this information comes from, but followed up further than just leaving at that — the FBI interviews. It is in the follow up as to what it all means.
          \\][//

          • H.P. Albarelli Jr. says:

            Well, you cited another source and what you offered advanced nothing already known. It means nothing new at all.

      • Ronnie Wayne says:

        Assume nothing Sir. Enjoyed your Amazon review of the new book on Oswald’s notebook. Plan to order it in the next few day’s.

  10. Ruth Paine played a very active role in getting Oswald the job ath the book depository. It’s also quite interesting that Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Randle told slightly different stories of how the subject of a possible job opening at the TSBD came up:

    http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5384

  11. Indeed there is yet no evidence to definitively link the Paines to a plot. Yet Ruth’s sister Slyvia was a CIA asset, and her father was a CIA informant. Worth noting.

    https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=103906&relPageId=7

  12. Neil says:

    Assuming Oswald didn’t know the motorcade route when he was hired at the Book Depository doesn’t necessarily strengthen the assumption that No One conspiring against Kennedy could’ve known the details of Kennedy’s visit weeks before 11/22.

    JFK had been planning to visit Texas in November months before 11/22. The details of the Dallas stop in Texas were ironed out in October of 63′.

    Whatever Oswald’s role in a potential conspiracy, it doesn’t require him knowing the details of Kennedy’s trip to Dallas weeks in advance.

    Here’s a detailed and lengthy article on the planning for Kennedy’s Texas trip – http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/32nd_Issue/jfk_texas.html

    • H.P. Albarelli Jr. says:

      Good post, Neil. Good article.

    • Roy W Kornbluth says:

      Great post, Neil. Great link to Joseph Backes’ presentation at Lancer 1999. That leg of the trip always seemed preposterous to me. Fly from Houston to Ft. Worth at midnight for a breakfast.(?) (No wonder Jackie was late for it–she shoulda been on strike over the stupidity of it.)
      Then FLY (?!) to the adjacent city. Why not fly to only one city in the first place? “Hurry up and wait” and “bumble around in place” are tactics of confusion well-learned by anyone with much military bureaucracy experience, like Gov. John Con.

      • Ronnie Wayne says:

        A large part of the purpose of this trip was exposure relating to the next election. Others have written “a kickoff for his 64 campaign”. There was a large crowd that waited for him late in Fort Worth, in addition to significant art work. Another the next morning when the rain stopped. And the breakfast supporting the local defense industry (Bell Helicopter, General Dynamics, Vought/LTV). Another good crowd on the way back To Carswell AFB.
        As far as driving… there was no freeway between the towns then. It would have been though East Fort Worth, Arlington, Irving, then Dallas, open country between all. This was before the “Turnpike”.
        Like the night before when JFK arrived at Love Field it was to an enthusiastic newsworthy crowd. Everybody remembers the red roses, the President greeting the crowd.
        Then the unbelievably enthusiastic huge crowd on Main Street. For a city he considered nut country from reading that morning’s newspaper, along with it’s spitting on Adali Stevenson and harrasing LBJ, and previous warnings from friends and security.
        A right on Houston into a “park” as the crowd thins a little.
        Nellie Connaly says “Mr. President you can’t say Dallas doesn’t Love You”. I believe he said “that is true”?
        The adulation of the crowd continued as they rounded the corner.

  13. Eddy says:

    How Oswald obtained employment at the TBSD is unclear. How the parade route was established is unclear. For Mishkin to conclude no conspiracy from this area of the story is rather odd.

    • leslie sharp says:

      “Plus: It’s often forgotten that Truly could have assigned Oswald to work at another building owned by the TSBD Company, which was not located in Dealey Plaza and was not situated along the President’s November 22nd motorcade route.”

      David vonPein,
      I’m searching for addresses of buildings owned by the depository business. I see reference to their having leased the Dal-Tex building in Dealey at one time (I don’t see evidence they owned the building at 501 Elm). Might that be why you are specifying “not located in Dealey” in anticipation of the speculation that their ties to the Dal-Tex building might draw attention.

      I’m sure you know that Cason and Campbell did not own 411 Elm, they leased the building. The building was owned by the Byrds, DH and Mattie Caruth Byrd, a daughter of the Caruth real estate dynasty in Dallas. Among their vast network of enterprises is NorthPark Shopping Center; they also owned a large parcel of land on which Southern Methodist University now sits. Mrs. Byrd’s offices were in the Meadows Building, across I75 from SMU. The Byrd’s home on Vassar Drive would be a prime piece of real estate in Highland Park. There were few families more entrenched in the development of modern Dallas or influential in how things ran in the city than the Caruths. DH enjoyed close affiliations with the Murchison Delhi Taylor corp, sitting on their board of directors; the Murchison ‘in town residence” on Preston Road was a stone’s throw from Vassar.

      Roy Truly was a co-director of the TSBD with Cason and Campbell. According to his testimony he joined the company in the early 1930’s. He took a sabbatical to work for CA based North American Aviation during WWII and returned to Dallas and the depository business where in 1963 he hired Frazier and Oswald within a month of one other. Speculating that Truly might have assigned Oswald to any other building is a non-starter. He hired him for 411 Elm, he trained him to work in that specific building, he never posted him at another location in the 6 weeks leading to 11.22, so yours is pure speculation and has no bearing whatsoever.

    • leslie sharp says:

      David vonPein, in the essay you link to you state: “Plus: It’s often forgotten that Truly could have assigned Oswald to work at another building owned by the TSBD Company, which was not located in Dealey Plaza and was not situated along the President’s November 22nd motorcade route.”

      
I’m searching for addresses of buildings owned by the depository business. I see reference to their having leased the Dal-Tex building in Dealey at one time (I don’t see evidence they owned the building at 501 Elm). I’m sure you know that Cason and Campbell did not own 411 Elm, they leased the building. The building was owned by the Byrds, DH and Mattie Caruth Byrd, a daughter of the Caruth real estate dynasty in Dallas.

      Roy Truly gave Oswald His Job. Truly was a co-director of the school depository business, and was not employed by DH Byrd. According to his testimony he joined the company in the early 1930’s. He took a sabbatical to work for CA based North American Aviation during WWII and returned to Dallas and the depository business where in 1963 he hired Frazier and Oswald within a month of one other.

      http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly2.htm

  14. J. Ian Roth says:

    “It is true that Ruth Paine and her family associated with people in the intelligence business. That does not hat [sic] constitute evidence that she arranged for Oswald’s job.”

    That’s incorrect. From pg.14 of the Warren Report’s Summary and Conclusions:

    “On the same day, at the suggestion of a neighbor, Mrs. Paine phoned the Texas School Book Depository and was told that there was a job opening. She informed Oswald who was interviewed the following day at the Depository and started to work there on October 16, 1963.”

    (http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0019b.htm)

    Ruth Paine was instrumentally involved in Oswald working at the TSBD. This is explicitly acknowledged in Warren Commission, and Paine herself made no attempt to dispute or disqualify it.

    But I’ll assume that Mr. Morley’s point was that Ruth Paine’s acquiring the TSBD job doesn’t prove any involvement in a conspiracy. Sure, it doesn’t prove anything. But it certainly does raise a potentially fatal flaw in Mr. Mishkin’s logic. Mr. Mishkin reasons that because Oswald acquired the job before the motorcade route was announced, it lends credit to the notion of unfortunate coincidence, i.e., the motorcade route just happened to cross through the field-of-view of a disturbed sniper who just happened to work there.

    His argument assumes that Oswald acquired the job through innocuous means that cannot be related to a broader conspiracy. The preponderance of evidence renders that conclusion untenable. The Paines don’t merely have some distant or trivial connection to American intelligence. Every facet of their personal and professional lives are marked by relationships to American intelligence and the American military. These connections also define the manner in which they met Oswald.

    These are documented, well-supported, and unchallenged facts about the Paines’ proximity to American intelligence, that, when taken together with Oswald’s own connections to intelligence, are indicative of a clandestine relationship:

    • The Oswalds met the Paines through George de Mohrenschildt. De Mohrenschildt had extensive professional involvement with the FBI and CIA. His brother was a member of the OSS and one of the earliest members of the CIA. He famously testified to Edward Epstein that he was instructed to meet Oswald by J. Walton Moore, a CIA official. He committed suicide the same day he gave this testimony and shortly before he was to meet HSCA investigator Gateon Fonzi.

    • Ruth Paine’s sister, Sylvia Hyde Hoke, was an undercover CIA agent since 1954.

    • Ruth Paine’s father, William Avery Hyde, was USAID’s regional insurance advisor for all of Latin America. USAID was run under the auspices of the State Department, but numerous government officials have acknowledged that USAID was essentially a CIA proxy throughout the Cold War. “At one time, many AID field offices were infiltrated from top to bottom with CIA people. It was pretty well known in the agency who they were and what they were up to.” – John Gilligan, former governor of Ohio.

    • Ruth Paine’s brother-in-law (Sylvia’s husband) also worked for USAID.

    • Michael Paine’s step-father was the founder of Bell Helicopter, and both he and his father held government security clearances.

  15. J. Ian Roth says:

    • Michael Paine’s mother, Ruth Forbes Paine Young, was a close personal friend of Mary Bancroft, a confidante and mistress to Allen Dulles. Dulles himself acknowledged this connection.

    If we go further, and examine the circumstances of the Paine’s lives and careers, we’re confronted with troubling questions about their ideological stances and behavior. Both the Paines were described as Quakers, yet they both hedged and backtracked about this in their testimony. Michael admits that he attended both ACLU meetings and get-togethers of the John Birch Society.

    As Willy Whitten notes, and as I noted in Mr. Morley’s first post about this topic, DPD Officer Buddy Walthers testified to finding “six or seven metal filing cabinets full of letters, maps, records and index cards with names of pro-Castro sympathizers.” Walthers was later killed in extraordinarily bizarre circumstances, around the same time Jim Garrison was encouraging him to testify at the trial of Clay Shaw. I don’t see any reason to doubt Walthers’ motives in reporting this discovery. He had nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

    Now, to the point that the planners of the motorcade route were unaware of Oswald’s presence. That point is a matter of contention, as the changes to the motorcade route were implemented obliquely and the chain of decision-making has never been clear. However, assuming it’s correct, it’s nonetheless meaningless. There are finite number of routes from Love Field to the Dallas Business and Trade Mart, and I don’t feel unreasonable in concluding that a well-orchestrated political assassination would allow for contingencies. Thus, Mr. Mishkin’s argument only makes sense if we assume that any conspiracy to kill Kennedy relied solely on Oswald (and no one but Oswald) assassinating Kennedy at Dealey Plaza (and nowhere but Dealey Plaza) on November 22, 1963 (and no time but November 22). Such constraints don’t make any sense. As other commenters have noted, there is documented evidence that Kennedy was targeted by assassins using similar tactics (snipers positioned in tall buildings overlooking his motorcade route) in Tampa and Chicago.

    All in all, Oswald’s placement at the TSBD is one of the most important facets of the assassination. One can conclude, as Mr. Mishkin does, that Oswald was in the right place at the right time as a result of coincidence. But this notion requires ignorance of many troubling considerations: Who got Oswald the job? (A woman with deep and pervasive ties to the CIA) How did Oswald meet the person who got him the job? (Through a man with deep and pervasive ties to the CIA) Why did Oswald forego a better paying job opportunity before he learned of the motorcade route? (Or, why did Ruth Paine fail to notify him of said job opportunity?)

    Or one can consider that Oswald was intentionally placed at the TSBD by domestic counterintelligence assets acting on higher orders. A great deal of circumstantial evidence supports the latter claim.

    • Neil says:

      Excellent info.

      I think we can conclude based on circumstantial evidence that Ruth Paine had “other” motives for going out of her way to help the Oswalds. Perhaps she was keeping an eye on them for someone else in Langley?

      However, I don’t find it convincing that Paine helping Oswald get the job at the Book Depository was wittingly or unwittingly part of any plot to kill Kennedy.

  16. gerald campeau says:

    Carmen Don’t forget that Ruth’s father was rewarded with a 3 year contract in 1964 with Agency for International Development a front for CIA My favorite coincidance in this sage is Ruth’s Father, Ruth’s father’s best friend {head of Soviet desk at CIA} and Boris Pash all are survivores of San Francisco Earthquake 1906

  17. Ronnie Wayne says:

    “Dulles joked privately that the [JFK] conspiracy buffs would have had a field day if they had known…he had actually been in Dallas three weeks before the murder…that one of Mary Bancroft’s childhood friends had turned out to be a landlady for Marina Oswald…and the landlady was a well known leftist with ties to the family of Alger Hiss.”
    “Michael Paine’s ancestors are Boston Brahmins of the Forbes and Cabot first families of America” (Forbes magazine, JFK beat Henry Cabot Lodge for his Senate seat then as President appointed him Ambassador to Vietnam where he “disconnected” with JFK during the Dem coup).
    “Ruth Paine’s…father, William Avery Hyde…worked for the OSS in WWII. He ended up becoming the Agency for International Development’s (AID) regional director for all of Latin America. …former AID director said AID was infiltrated from top to bottom by CIA agents.”
    To paraphrase. Ruth’s sister Silvia Hyde Hoke worked for the CIA several years before 1963 as a psychologist. But Ruth didn’t know this when Jim Garrison questioned her. On vacation in the summer of 63 she stayed with Sylvia for 2 weeks in Falls Church Virginia, adjoining CIA HQ Langley. Sylvia’s husband john worked for AID also.
    No “evidence” of anything but worthy of suspicion an further investigation.
    All from Destiny Betrayed, pgs. 196-199.
    FREETHEFILES

  18. Bogman says:

    From DeMorenschildt taking Oswald under his wing to Oswald’s return to Dallas just weeks before the assassination, it all smells of conspiracy. From the moment JFK is killed it’s obvious the federal govt is in frantic cover-up mode. The assassination itself up close looks like the work of at least one other gunman.

    The actual process of Oswald getting the job on the motorcade route is about the only thing in this that looks straightforward and normal. Which raises it’s own suspicions.

    • I would add EASY to your “straightforward and normal”, Bogman. It appears that filling out the application for the job clinched his hiring, and the ensuing questions were just routine.

  19. Fearfaxer says:

    Sometime in the last couple of years, I read something that discussed the “It can’t be a conspiracy because the motorcade route was announced only 2 days before.” I don’t remember where I came across this and would not normally refer to something I could not provide a link to, but it seems extremely relevant, so here it is:

    The Texas trip, including the fact that it would include a swing through Dallas, was announced the previous summer (July, as I recall). Dallas was a much smaller city than it is now (it would experience a tremendous expansion that began just a couple of years later), and there were very few routes that a Presidential motorcade intended to be seen by the largest number of people possible could take. As the trip was intended to be an informal kickoff to JFK’s reelection campaign, that motorcade would be the central part of the visit. Further, according to that article, every such route (and there were only 3 at most) would have to pass through Dealey Plaza. So if there was a conspiracy, those taking part had a lot more than 2 days to make their plans.

    As to whether Michael Paine was keeping files on people, and/or informing on them, read his Warren Commission testimony. He talks about attending meeting of both the ACLU and the John Birch Society. He talks of also taking Oswald to an ACLU gathering, and of how Oswald himself talked of attending John Birch meeting independent of Paine, and how he claimed to have been present when Birchers and other right wing loonies roughed up Adlai Stevenson in October 1963. Now I ask you, who would go to meetings of both the ACLU and the John Birch Society (the latter apparently required an invitation and Paine said he got one by chatting up a co-worker he knew was a member)? I can think of 3 types of people: Those who are open minded to a degree that is almost impossible to comprehend; those who are hopelessly confused; spies for government agencies (police/FBI/etc.). After reading that testimony, I became convinced that Paine was indeed some kind of spy monitoring the activities of various activists and the organizations they belonged to, and that Oswald was working with him. I find it very difficult to believe that this thought wasn’t in the mind of a number of the commissioners and legal staff, even if they never gave voice to these suspicions publicly.

    Paine’s testimony is quite odd by the way. The general gist is as follows: “Oswald and I were not close. I spent many hours in his company, had long and detailed conversations with him about politics and world affairs, and went out of my way to get him to come to ACLU meetings with me. I barely knew him.”

    • Neil says:

      Great post.

      It seems clear that the basic details of Kennedy’s Dallas trip could’ve been known to people in Texas and the Federal government well in advance of Oswald getting a job at the Book Depository.

      • Bill Simpich says:

        I think it’s a reasonable hypothesis that after JFK’s Dallas trip was announced,
        someone tried to figure out how to get oswald at least near the probable motorcade route.

        After Buell Frazier got his job at the depository on Sept13, Frazier’s sister Linnie Randle mentioned Frazier’s new job to Ruth while the two neighbors were having coffee cake together in October. As mentioned by M. Baumann in this thread, their stories did not match.

        Paine said Randle told her there was a job opening. Randle said she told Paine simply that Frazier had got a job there. A subtle but important difference. Paine then took it on herself to call the depository to see if there was a job opening for Lee. Paine also never passed on a phone call to Oswald about another and better job offer. (Further details can be found with a Google search for part 12 of my essays on Oswald’s legend makers, at oped news).

        That is not proof that Ruth Paine was a planner of the assassination. I think it is proof that some manipulations were conducted to get Oswald his job at the depository.

        Most of these details are in the Warren Report and are not difficult to obtain. For Mishkin to write an entire book without learning these details which he considers pivotal is frankly beyond me.

        • Larry Schnapf says:

          as curry mentioned in his book, motorcades in dallas in those days went down or up main street which means they necessarily would have gone through dealey plaza. the only question was whether motorcade would go straight through main street and under the overpass or down elm street. the route depended on where the luncheon would be hosted. thus, once it was announced JFK would be doing a motorcade, it would have been known to anyone who was interested that he would be going through Dealey Plaza.

          • Bob Prudhomme says:

            We can think even bigger than that, Larry. Why not pick out three or four assassination sites, just to cover all of the bases, and be grooming a patsy at each location? That way, you’re prepared for whatever happens.

        • gerald campeau says:

          Bill i think the subtle but important difference is between Frazier and his sister testimony, Randle did not tell Paine that Frazier got the job from lady down the road, But at end of day Frazier and Oswald where placed into TSBD

          • Bill Simpich says:

            Gerald,

            Who was the lady down the road that got Frazier his job in September, shortly after the Dallas visit by JFK was announced in July?

            Dallas homicide chief Wll Fritz wanted to arrest Frazier as Oswald’s accomplice, and tried to get Frazier to confess on November 22.

          • gerald campeau says:

            BILL, The Lady worked for Massey employment agency located on Shady Grove Road witch is block or two from Frazier home.It would be usefull to find out who paid Massey, TSBD or Frazier

      • Fearfaxer says:

        Thank you. I’ll just add, if you want to see the Warren Commission’s central premise crumble in front of your eyes, JUST READ THE WITNESS TESTIMONY! It is COMPLETELY at variance with the “Oswald did it all by his lonesome” conclusion.

    • I agree with Neil, The information on this thread, especially that of J. Ian Roth and Fearfaxer, seems to be strong indication of Oswald as an Intelligence Operative. I have thought for a long time that Oswald was in fact infiltrating the group that would eventually kill JFK, and he was exactly as he claimed, a patsy.

      All being said, positing the event in Dallas was a coup d’etat, seems at this point beyond reasonable doubt.
      \\][//

      • H.P. Albarelli Jr. says:

        And, Willy, the evidence for that so-called “infiltration” as an “intelligence operative” is what? and “the group”is what? I’m unconvinced by anything offered on this page thus far. Just some hard evidence, however brief, would move this theory along the road to– whatever.

        • And, Willy, the evidence for that so-called “infiltration” as an “intelligence operative” is what? ~H.P. Albarelli Jr.

          As so much is classified, connecting the dots of what is known and the circumstantial evidence derived there of leads to my opinion that Oswald was an operative most likely CIA itself; set up in a double cross.

          “the group”is what?”~Albarelli

          The JMWave, anti-cuban, oil interests nexus.
          \\][//

          • J. Ian Roth says:

            “And, Willy, the evidence for that so-called “infiltration” as an “intelligence operative” is what? and “the group”is what? I’m unconvinced by anything offered on this page thus far. Just some hard evidence, however brief, would move this theory along the road to– whatever.”

            I concur with Paul F. You dismiss all the information on this page, including verified and documented facts, on the basis that there’s no hard evidence. That sort of thinking renders all investigations futile. I agree that Willy Whitten’s hypothesis, that Oswald was attempting to infiltrate an anti-Kennedy plot, lacks overt support. But the circumstantial evidence connecting both the Paines and Oswald to American intelligence is overwhelming, and several comments on this page do an excellent job of delineating it.

            What exactly is Mr. Mishkin saying? What notion is Mr. Morley giving support to? What theory do you favor, Mr. Albarelli? You all coalesce around the theory of coincidence?

            Because this is what happened: A former U.S. Marine and Soviet defector-cum-returner was introduced, by a man with personal and professional connections to the CIA, to a Texas couple with deep and pervasive ties to the CIA, and then moved to Texas to live with said couple. The husband, Michael Paine — a man who held government security clearance, who is the step-son of the founder of Bell Helicopter — took Oswald to ideologically-contradictory political gatherings (ACLU, John Birch Society) for admittedly (admitted by Paine himself) vague reasons. The wife — the sister of an undercover CIA agent, the daughter of a senior USAID official, who spent time in Langley (ostensibly to stay with her sister) in early 1963 — personally acquired for Oswald a job at the TSBD. Oswald shot and kills the president of the United States from said building.

            Oswald wouldn’t have worked at the TSBD without Ruth Paine. She was essential to his working there. Oswald wouldn’t have met Ruth Paine without meeting George de Mohrenschildt. De Mohrenschildt’s credibility is justifiably questioned, but he nonetheless explicitly stated that he was instructed to meet Oswald by J. Walton Moore, a CIA official.

            None of these facts raise questions for you? None of these facts make the notion of coincidence untenable?

            You’re welcome to chalk all this up to dark serendipity. Oswald was in the right place at the right time. Ruth Paine was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Both of their connections to American intelligence are incidental and meaningless. Michael Paine took Oswald to politically-charged and contradictory rallies for kicks. George de Mohrenschildt was just a crazy old liar. But for me, this theory is fanciful, ungrounded, and requires a herculean suspension of disbelief.

            What’s far more likely, given the preponderance of circumstantial evidence, is that the Paines were domestic counterintelligence assets and that they were used to move Oswald into position.

          • Paulf says:

            Mr. Roth:

            That was brilliant. If I had more time, that’s exactly what I would have said.

        • Paulf says:

          H.P.: there is no iron-clad evidence that Oswald was an intelligence operative. You can dismiss all these crazy and improbable coincidences just because there is no smoking gun.

          But if you want to go down that road and be logical and even-handed, there is a lot more evidence that he had intelligence connections than that he ever shot anybody.

          • H.P. Albarelli Jr. says:

            Paulf- That’s a matter of opinion, not fact. I think the evidence that he may have shot someone {JFK an/or Tippet} is far greater than his being an intelligence operative, which I interpret to mean CIA operative.

          • J. Ian Roth says:

            H.P. Albarelli Jr. —

            The two allegations are not mutually-exclusive. The evidence that Oswald fired shots from the TSBD building is compelling and has never been convincingly discredited. But the evidence that Oswald was a counterintelligence asset is equally compelling and has only gained greater support and documentation in the intervening decades. In both instances the evidence is circumstantial, not forensic. Assume that Oswald was the lone gunmen on 11/22/63. Who was he? Who did he work for? Who got him the job at the TSBD? Who introduced him to the person who got him the job? Who did these people work for? Who did these people know? Who was surveilling Oswald? Why did the CIA obstruct three major investigations into the assassination and Oswald’s subsequent murder?

            The most fruitful investigative tract in this field comes not from analyzing the Zapruder film or the Dictabelt or the shot trajectories, (although they’re all vital areas of inquiry). It comes from probing Oswald’s background, relationships, and behaviors. It’s summed up best by a terrible knock-knock joke.

            Knock knock.

            Who’s there?

            Lee Harvey Oswald.

            Lee Harvey Oswald who?

            …Exactly.

          • H.P. Albarelli Jr. says:

            Yes, terrible.You need to work some on your humor, Mr. Roth. As nearly always here, I find you arguments less than compelling and stale in regards to originality. Oswald’s background is perhaps better examined than most minor historical figures and still little to nothing startling or stunning has emerged.The answers to the remaining of your questions are there for anyone sincerely looking.

          • Well now Mr Albarelli, I think the question of “which Oswald” is a very relevant one to ask and ponder. There were known impersonations of Oswald. Not only the Mexican incident, but the Texas Theater incident. Someone said to be Oswald that visited Sylvia Odio. someone claiming to be Lee Harvey Oswald taking a test drive at a car lot – while Oswald was still in Russia.

            Have you sorted all of this out, and can you enlighten us as to all of these incidents?
            \\][//

          • H.P. Albarelli Jr. says:

            Sure, I could, Willy, but first I should say that the theory of two Oswalds is simply nonsense, and I suspect explaining that to you would be a waste of my time as well as a blow to the National Security State that you so treasure.

          • David Regan says:

            The López Report, a 300 page investigation of Oswald’s trip to Mexico for the HSCA, concluded that “the possibility that someone else used Lee Harvey Oswald’s name during this time in contacts with the Soviet and Cuban Consulates cannot be absolutely dismissed.”
            http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=799&relPageId=18

            According to the HSCA, “Silvia Odio’s testimony is essentially credible.” The Committee went on to say that “there is no doubt that three men came to her apartment in Dallas” and that “there is a strong possibility that one of the men was or appeared to be Lee Harvey Oswald.”
            http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1212&relPageId=35

          • Ronnie Wayne says:

            You don’t have to waste your time H P. Oswald’s doubles were explored in depth 25 years ago in Philip Melanson’s well documented book Spy Saga for starters. BTW Willy, the test drive took pace in the fall of 63. Along with somebody shooting at other peoples targets at the gun range in Irving among others. The imposter in Mexico spoke broken Russian, Oswald spoke it fluently.

        • GM says:

          I think the scenario that Oswald was an (probably low level) American intelligence agent runs something like this:

          Oswald is recruited to an intelligence agency, perhaps more than one; most likely during his time in the Marines. He becomes part of the false defector programme into the Soviet Union, Oswald was never in fact a Marxist (although there is a case that he held liberal/left wing political views). Oswald goes into the American Embassy in Moscow, and threatens to provide the Russians with sensitive American military secrets during the Cold War….Incredibly, Oswald is never punished for this offence on his return to the US in late 1962! Oswald never actually officially renounces his American citizenship.

          Oswald’s main contact for several months is the mysterious DeMohrenschildt. A CIA officer in Dallas tells the latter that there is no problem in his contacts with Oswald, despite being an apparent traitor to the American state and government, at the height of the Cold War!

          Then there is his behaviour in New Orleans in the summer of 1963. His fracas with Anti-Castro Cubans is very, very suspicious. He asks to see a FBI agent after being involved in a minor scuffle…Oswald has a pamphlet with the address of Guy Bannister’s office in New Orleans, who is fiercely hostile to communism. In a radio interview Oswald only apparently struggles on the question of how he supported himself during his time in the Soviet Union. He almost says that he was supported by the American government, but then ‘corrects’ himself.

          There is obviously the episode in Mexico City. There is the credible story of Silvia Odio in Dallas of Oswald being either impersonated, or actually in the presence of Anti-Castro Cubans, which for a supposed hard-line American communist is incomprehensible. There is the report of Oswald possibly phoning a former intelligence officer in North Carolina hours after the assassination. Then there is David Morales’ apparent confession to his close friend, about his involvement in the assassination, before his own death in the 1970s.

          • Dan says:

            Another possible scenario to consider is that Oswald played a role in the JFK assassination similar to that of Marinus van der Lubbe in the Reichstag fire of 1933. Van der Lubbe was a young Dutch communist blamed for setting the Reichstag fire, and providing Hitler with the basis to seize dictatorial power. Allen Dulles in his 1947 book “Germany’s Underground” wrote that Hermann Goring was responsible for the Reichstag fire.

  20. Neil says:

    “We first hear about JFK coming to Texas in an April 23rd announcement by LBJ given in Dallas for the Second Annual NASA Manned Space Flight Conference. “The April 24th, 1963 edition of the Dallas Times Herald is headlined, “LBJ sees Kennedy Dallas Visit – One Day Texas Tour Eyed.””

    http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/32nd_Issue/jfk_texas.html

    Does anyone have access to the newspaper cited by Joseph Backes?

  21. TLR says:

    Read Gerald McKnight’s “BREACH OF TRUST” if you really must educate yourself further on the Warren Commission’s failings.

    On a related matter, is this William Shelley (Oswald’s boss at the TSBD) with Oswald in New Orleans that summer?

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l7UElQtDOD8/U6TpzcEqK8I/AAAAAAAAP0o/IY9pQHgAyWk/s1600/Shelley+collage4.jpg

  22. Jordan says:

    If it hasn’t already been mentioned, I believe that Ms. Paine failed to advise LHO of another job opening that paid better than the job at the TSBD, however, where I read this information doesn’t immediately come to mind…

    • Pete Orr says:

      Yes, in James Douglass’ book. Jean Davidson tried to confuse the issue on another thread. You can check Ruth P’ s testimony in the WCR on the baggage handlers job that was offered through the TEC on Oct 15, a job that was both permanent and which paid more than the temp job at the TSBD. For someone who seemed to have all the answers, Paine’s answer was vague – this from the lady who wrote everything down on her amazing calendar. ( she could not remember the call about the baggage handlers job) Also, Mr. Adams from the TEC was not given the various documents that recorded LHO’s job hunting experiences in his deposition before the WC. The next witness from the TEC did have the documents for her testimony in her deposition. Adams testimony was mistaken in some places and was not followed up by counsel.

      • Jean Davison says:

        Pete,

        “Yes, in James Douglass’ book. Jean Davidson tried to confuse the issue on another thread.”

        I tried to clarify the issue, not confuse it. The key point here is Adams said that when someone else [Ruth]answered the phone he left a message “requesting that Mr. Oswald contact me.” He didn’t say that he gave her details about the job such as salary. That was really none of her business. His business was with Oswald, not whoever happened to answer the phone.

        Douglass confused the issue, not me. He *assumed* that Ruth lied but her testimony makes perfect sense if the only details she had about job offers came from Oswald, not the employment agency. She denied knowing about any such offer and then talked about what sounds like the earlier electronics store job that Oswald applied for but didn’t get. Please read it again:

        QUOTE:
        Mr. JENNER – Did you ever hear anything by way of discussion or otherwise by Marina or Lee of the possibility of his having been tendered or at least suggested to him a job at Trans-Texas, as a cargo handler at $310 per month?
        Mrs. PAINE – No; in Dallas?
        Mr. JENNER – Yes.
        Mrs. PAINE – I do not recall that $310 a month?
        Mr. JENNER – Yes. This was right at the time that he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository.
        Mrs. PAINE – And he was definitely offered such a job?
        Mr. JENNER – Well, I won’t say it was offered–that he might have been able to secure a job through the Texas Employment Commission as a cargo handler at $310 per month.
        Mrs. PAINE – I do recall some reference of that sort, which fell through–that there was not that possibility.
        Mr. JENNER – Tell us what you know about that. Did you hear of it at the time?
        Mrs. PAINE – Yes
        Mr. JENNER – Now, would you please relate that to me?
        Mrs. PAINE – I recall some reference to—-
        Mr. JENNER – How did it come about?
        Mrs. PAINE – From Lee, as I recall.
        Mr. JENNER – And was it at the time, or just right—-
        Mrs. PAINE – It was at the time, while he was yet unemployed.
        Mr. JENNER – And about the time he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository?
        Mrs. PAINE – It seemed to me he went into town with some hopes raised by the employment agency–whether a public or private employment agency I don’t know–but then reported that the job had been filled and not available to him.
        Mr. JENNER – But that was—-
        Mrs. PAINE – That is my best recollection.
        Mr. JENNER – Of his report to you and Marina?
        Mrs. PAINE – Yes.
        UNQUOTE

        The other thread is here:
        http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/the-core-logic-of-the-warren-commission/#comments

        Douglass quote:
        https://books.google.com/books?id=KS-6XrdalGkC&pg=PA172&lpg=PA172&dq=%22ruth+paine%22+job+higher+pay+douglass&source=bl&ots=1iPacWrQDC&sig=yyldNw3k-YOGvXUz2T7DoScLh3A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0GLnVJiUA4mkgwSmpoKwDA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22ruth%20paine%22%20job%20higher%20pay%20douglass&f=false

        • Pete Orr says:

          Paine’s comments are confusing and doesn’t address the question directly. There were two different job offers; the second one (the cargo handlers job) is the one she is not clear about. The point is she (likely) took the calls and did not tell LHO about it twice when there was the opportunity. She had trouble remembering it when her mind was crystal clear on other events surrounding LHO’s employment. Paine tries to obscure what happened by suggesting Lee told her about the job. Adams’ testimony in no way indicates that LHO ever contacted him to discuss the second job; he suggested on the basis of the phone call that he would not be in the running for the job.
          My only point is that counsel (Jenner) might have tried a little harder to pin down any inconsistencies in Paine’s testimony regarding LHO’s employment – whether it be how LHO heard about the job at the TSBD or the other possibilities for work that LHO may have had. Possible inconsistencies in Paine’s testimony would undermine her credibility as a witness, and given the amount of key evidence against LHO involving the Paine family, these inconsistencies or coincidences ought to have been addressed by counsel.

          • Jean Davison says:

            Pete,

            “Paine’s comments are confusing and doesn’t address the question directly. There were two different job offers; the second one (the cargo handlers job) is the one she is not clear about. The point is she (likely) took the calls and did not tell LHO about it twice when there was the opportunity.”

            No, the point is that she DID tell Oswald about the first, high-paying job at the electronics store in early October. We know that’s true because the record shows that Oswald returned Adams’ call and applied but wasn’t hired.

            http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1136&relPageId=418

            Look at the Solid State job at $350 a month. Under the “Called” column it says TM (telephone message) and under “Results” NH (not hired).

            Ruth said Oswald told her someone else had already been hired, which sounds like a “save face” explanation to me. Why do you doubt he told her about this, when she was the one who passed along the message to him?

            You say,
            “She had trouble remembering it when her mind was crystal clear on other events surrounding LHO’s employment. Paine tries to obscure what happened by suggesting Lee told her about the job.”

            It wasn’t “trouble remembering” about the cargo handler job if Adams didn’t give her any details (and there’s no evidence he did). Adams left a message and the next day he was told that Oswald had a job. There’s no evidence I know of one way or another about whether Ruth passed along this final message or not. There’s no evidence Adams gave her any details about this job either.

            She may well have told Oswald the agency called and Oswald ignored it. Would he want to try to get time off right away to apply for something he might not get?

            It’s CT writers who have “obscured what happened” by not pointing out that Ruth relayed a message to Oswald regarding the Solid State job about a week before she supposedly maneuvered him into the TSBD.

          • gerald campau says:

            Jean Davison
            What exactly is Solid State Electronics of Texas? As solid state electronics is a generic term i can’t find any info on company.
            Generic terms are common words or terms, often found in the dictionary, that identify products and services and are not specific to any particular source. It is not possible to register as a trademark a term that is generic for the goods/services identified in the application.

          • Jean Davison says:

            Gerald,

            “What exactly is Solid State Electronics of Texas?”

            The employment agency employee R.L. Adams explained this in his testimony. It was a
            “a company engaged in the sale of electronics parts” that wanted to hire a sales clerk. Something like Radio Shack, maybe. But this was 50 years ago. It’s probably long gone.

            http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/adams_r.htm

  23. leslie sharp says:

    J. Ian Roth:
    “Who introduced him to the person who got him the job?” and earlier you stated “The Oswalds met the Paines through George de Mohrenschildt.”

    The trajectory of events seems to have been far more complicated than that suggests and involves individuals that bear revisiting:

    Everett Glover, a chemist employed by Socony Mobil, had a casual acquaintance with Jeanne deMohrenschildt in the late 1950’s through their membership in the same figure skating club; Everett met George when he returned from “somewhere” (records indicate it might have been Yugoslavia). Their friendship did not evolve until years later.

    Spring 1962:
    Dallas businessman Sam Ballen attended a party in Garland (Precinct 3) at the home of Lauriston Marshall, executive with the Graduate Research Center of the Southwest that was founded by Erik Jonsson, Eugene McDermott and Cecil Green of Richardson- based Texas Instruments (Precinct 4). Everett Glover was also a guest at Marshall’s. Ballen engaged Glover in conversation, they talked tennis and agreed to play doubles the following morning. When Glover arrived at the courts, the deMohrenschildts were there as the other doubles team. Sam Ballen had been friends with George since the mid 1950’s when deMohrenschildt had an office in the same downtown Dallas building as Ballen.

    Everett Glover renewed his acquaintance with the deMohrenschildts through frequent tennis matches that included Ballen, and he began spending a great deal of time socializing with the deM’s.

    Meanwhile in late 1962, Jeanne deMohrenschildt and husband George met Marina Oswald through their Russian community in both Dallas and Ft. Worth. Some weeks later, they insisted that their close friend Everett Glover come over to meet Marina which he did, and on subsequent occasions. Eventually Glover met Lee Oswald at the deMohrenschildts’ Dickens St. apartment in mid February, 1963.

    Within days of meeting Lee, Glover hosted a “gathering” at his home on Potomac which he shared with Socony co-workers Volmar Schmidt and Richard Pierce who were pursuing the study of the Russian language. The purpose was to introduce the Oswalds.

    Prior to the gathering, Everett Glover phoned his friend Ruth Paine, having met the Paines years earlier through choir activities associated with the Unitarian Church. Glover knew that Ruth spoke Russian and wanted to advance her proficiency. Ruth accepted Glover’s invitation; “Mike,” as he was known to Everett had a cold and did not attend the party.

    to be cont.

  24. leslie sharp says:

    The deMohrenschildt’s arrived late at Everett Glover’s home on February 22, 1963, and stayed only a short time. Unless there are records to prove otherwise it was at this gathering that the deMohrenschildts were introduced to Ruth Paine. And it was at this gathering that Ruth Paine first met Marina and Lee Oswald. Of note: during Ruth’s WC testimony, Albert Jenner never asks her about the deMohrenschildts, and there are only two references to Everett Glover; one with her commenting “and whose connection is known,” and the other to confirm Feb 22, 1963 as the date she first met the Oswalds in Dallas at “Everett’s” as noted in her diary. Michael Paine’s testimony indicates he was not present on the 22nd, but met the Oswalds later.

    In essence, it was Lauriston Marshall’s friendship with Sam Ballen and Marshall’s separate friendship with Everett Glover that started the ball rolling. Ballen and Glover strengthened their friendship with one another and with the deM’s. The deM’s introduced Glover to Marina and Lee, then Glover introduced Marina and Lee to his friends, Ruth and Mike Paine. I see no link between the Paines and the deMohrenshildts without Everett Glover and Sam Ballen – and they met thru Lauriston Marshall of the science research center.

    The fact that deMohrenschildt was out of the country from May, 1963 until after the assassination, and the manner in which he died on the eve of testimony before the HSCA strikes me as indication that in spite of being a vital pawn he should never have become a diversion in the investigation.

    To be cont.

  25. leslie sharp says:

    (cont.)
    The invitation to the Trade Mart read: “The Dallas Citizens Council” “The Dallas Assembly” “The Science Research Center” request the pleasure of . . . ” Had the luncheon been held at the Women’s Building the parade route from Love Field would have been entirely different. Officials at Trammel Crow’s Trade Mart must surely have sat in on meetings to determine at least the last quarter mile of the route as it would have involved timing and their grand welcome. The divider which allegedly caused the motorcade to be routed through Dealey past the TSBD was not so significant that limousines could not have easily jumped it although there would have been an undignified lurch for the passengers. The kill zone was expertly defined.

    Kennedy’s undelivered speech at the Trade Mart opened with:

    “I am honored to have this invitation to address the annual meeting of the Dallas Citizens Council, joined by the members of the Dallas Assembly — and pleased to have this opportunity to salute the Graduate Research Center of the Southwest.”

    Erik Jonsson was president of the Dallas Citizens Council, was co-founder of the GRCS and employer of Lauriston Marshall, followed Earl Cabell as mayor of Dallas in 1964 and was chairman of the board of Navy and Army defense contractor Texas Instruments.

    • H.P. Albarelli Jr. says:

      Fascinating material, Ms. Sharp. Some really interesting details in there. You put other posters here to shame. Much appreciated.

    • Bob Prudhomme says:

      Hi Leslie

      I have seen the concrete barrier between Main and Elm St. up close and it is indeed unpassable. It was there long before the motorcade was thought of, and its purpose was to stop traffic on Main St. from taking a shortcut to the Stemmons Freeway Entrance and dangerously crossing in front of through traffic on Elm St. A 4×4 pickup with a bit of a lift kit on the axles might have made it over but not a low slung 1962 Lincoln limo with six adults in it. It would have been scraping bottom in several places, and might have even gotten its frame hung up somewhere.

      The only way to have accomplished this would have been to lay long wooden sloping ramps on either side of this barrier to allow the limo a way on and off but, as there was unhindered traffic on Main St. before and after the motorcade, this solution would have been, at the very least, awkward. Going through Dealey Plaza would have been a simple and obvious solution.

      However, as it was such a simple and obvious solution, and as going down Main St. was the most obvious way of going through Dallas from Love Field, would the conspirators not immediately spot this location as an obvious choke point while looking for an ambush site, long before the motorcade route was actually worked out?

      • leslie sharp says:

        Larry, as you know the Women’s Building was located on the State Fair Grounds about 3 miles east of the center of downtown Dallas; the motorcade would have had to execute an additional 4-5 mile journey after passing through Dealey and executing the necessary maneuvers from Stemmons to pick up I30 East. Curry’s claim also begs the question … what decisions were there to be made about the parade route if tradition meant that the motorcade would travel west down Main regardless of the final destination? Apparently the only significant decision to be made by the welcoming committee was the sharp turns around Dealey.

        I’ve read various accounts relating to the choice of the Trade Mart over the Women’s Building including the argument it presented a more desirable business profile; that was the message Dallas Citizens Council was sending President Kennedy … ‘we’re all about business and a lot of that business is related to the Military Industrial Complex.’ (and I would speculate the city fathers had no intention of encouraging the woman’s vote in the coming election.) Before it was confirmed that the president was dead, the minister of one of the largest Protestant churches in Dallas offered a benediction in the dining hall of the mart that closed with (paraphrasing) ‘so that we may remain free.’ That is out of context, but my point is that in spite of having been told that the president had been shot, not knowing his condition, this minister did not offer one word of solace let alone a prayer for Kennedy’s recovery.

      • leslie sharp says:

        Bob, this is bothering me:
        from the Warren Report: [the mention of traffic hazards could imply to a lay reader that the worry was the motorcade could cause an accident which is ludicrous; the commission was explaining why there was a barrier yet they seem to protest too much]

        ” The Elm Street approach to the Stemmons Freeway is necessary in order to avoid the traffic hazards which would otherwise exist if right turns were permitted from both Main and Elm into the freeway. To create this traffic pattern, a concrete barrier between Main and Elm Streets presents an obstacle to a right turn from Main across Elm to the access road to Stemmons Freeway and the Dallas-Fort Worth Turnpike. This concrete barrier extends far enough beyond the access road to make it IMPRACTICABLE for vehicles to turn right from Main directly to the access road. A sign located on this barrier INSTRUCTS Main Street traffic NOT TO MAKE any turns. (See Commission Exhibits Nos. 2114-2116.) In conformity with these arrangements, traffic proceeding west on Main is directed to turn right at Houston in order to reach the Dallas-Fort Worth Turnpike . . .”

        Isn’t that rather oblique language if the intent of safety engineers was to indicate it was “impossible” to make the turn, to “demand” there be no turn, that “no turn is possible?” A “barrier” seems more in line with these conditions, yet what exists is a “curb”

        My argument has long been that 1) the motorcade could have used Main, proceeded to the first exit, taken the frontage road to turn and double back; if the Women’s Building was under consideration at all, a similar complicated maneuver would have been involved yet that doesn’t seem to have weighed on the final decision of the venue; 2) Traffic was halted for the parade anyway so the only hazard the motorcade might have confronted was damage to low slung limousines as you have pointed out. If that had been the issue, why didn’t the Warren Report simply state that the turn would have posed the possibility of damage to the limos had they chosen to not use Elm but executed a right turn off Main. We can speculate why they might not have wanted to include that in the report.

        David vonPein provides good photos of the “barrier” which in my vernacular is a “curb.”

  26. Larry Schnapf says:

    If the Women’s Building was the location of the luncheon, the motorcade would still have gone down main street and through Dealey Plaza. This was the traditional motorcade path in Dallas. The only difference would have been no turn onto Houston/elm,but instead straight through Dealey Plaza and under the Triple Overpass—according to Curry.

  27. S.r. Dusty Rohde says:

    Let me respond in this manner….

    One of the few comments to address this point was this:

    “The trip to Dallas was delayed several times. John Connally was directly involved with the changed motorcade route. It also appears that Ruth and Michael Paine, along with George De Mohrenschildt had a lot to do with maneuvering Oswald into a job at the TSBD. Once Oswald was in position, the route was adjusted, and Boom, job finished. ”

    This is unconvincing in many ways.

    “It appears” is a weak formulation. No evidence was provided for this claim about Ruth Paine.”

    Is it really necessary to cite or document what is fairly common knowledge in the JFK Community? Would anyone well informed on Assassination events deny Ruth Paine’s habitual attempts at manipulating Marian Oswald, thus minipulating Lee directly and by proxy? (both before and after the assassination?).

    “The reader’s claim is factually weak on another one point. I know of no evidence that George de Mohrenshchildt had anything to do with Oswald getting a job in October 1963.”

    Are you aware of the evidence that George deMohrenshcildt befriended Oswald and introduced him to many of the people known and associated with himself in the Russian Community?

    “I know of no evidence that the people who set the motorcade route knew that Oswald was in Dallas.”

    Was it necessary for them to know LHO was in Dallas, or simply to know that things were “in place” for the Assassination and information on the desired route passed from one person to the other? The fact is, they wouldn’t have to know anything about Oswald at all…..all anyone would have to know is the desired route of the motorcade, and the time/date.

    So while you state these statements “are weak”, neither can they be refuted. You have given me a good subject for a future article, upon completion, I will be happy to share, including citations for the involvement of John Connally, G. DeMohrenschildt and the Paines.

  28. leslie sharp says:

    Hi Bob, I lived in Dallas for a dozen years including stints in Oak Lawn beginning in the early ’70’s and prior to that my family visited Dallas on numerous occasions in the late 50’s and 60’s, on one occasion to attend the Magnolia/Mobil Oil “Go,GoGo” convention held at the newly opened Cabana Motel (not far from Dealey). I’ve returned to Dealey Plaza numerous times over the last several decades. I may well be wrong about the barrier but I thought at one time the initial section of it was less prominent, and that it expanded in height and extreme curbing as it progressed, so that a driver had a few seconds to ease into the right lane (bumping over a rolling curb) rather than bring traffic to a complete standstill to execute a ‘desperate’ lane change.

    I trust you recognize my greater issue is that the kill zone was and always was Dealey Plaza in order to maximize the shock and awe of the murder of the president in broad daylight. Kennedy removed from leadership was not the only agenda … after all he could have died of natural causes while in office and someone of like mind could have taken up his mantle – say for instance Robert F. Kennedy. The assassination was intended as a message to a populace that had been inspired to have faith in the democratic process by men like Kennedy … “we have the power, you do not.” Vince Salandria said it more eloquently.

  29. leslie sharp says:

    Interesting footage from the Trade Mart; Eddie Barker of CBS affiliate KRLD TV states within in a 3-5 minute period that 1) a doctor from Parkland advised him (whispered in his ear actually – which begs the question, did he drive over from Parkland for the express purpose of telling Barker of KRLD?) that the president was dead AND 2) Barker stated that a 25 year old assassin had shot the president. (he also reports that a secret service agent was shot and died instantly and that a man and woman were suspects). Without knowing exactly what time Barker’s coverage began it is difficult to determine precisely what time he named “a 25 year old assassin;” Was it before Oswald was arrested in the theatre (1:50 pm approx.) for the murder of Tippit – an arrest that allegedly had nothing to do with the assassination – or was it after Oswald been taken in and someone advised Barker that he was the suspect in the assassination? (Oswald interviews began at 2:30?) The timeline is fascinating and deserves scrutiny. I tend to think Barker got a heads up from someone within the DPD; I’ve always argued that Oswald ‘s arrest was directly related to the assassination and the DPD went to the theatre en masse because of it.

    Barker, filling air time while awaiting updates, opines that the “Extreme Right Wing” had been a derisive element of concern for months. (note: the demeanor of the guests after being told the president had been shot is fascinating as well.)

    • Ronnie Wayne says:

      Hi Leslie. I wish you would elaborate on the demeanor of the guests. Would it cone close to falling under Jeff’s topic about people celebrating the assassination?
      Also, while I don’t remember Dealy Plaza from the 60’s, from the 70’s on I’ve been to or through it dozens if not a hundred times or better (it was out turnaround point when crusing to the big city to get out of town in the mid cities in high school, and work took me through there in later years, plus going to see for myself). The curb/median has been the same that whole time. As Bob said, a little high to jump in a limo. If they didn’t take the route they did the alternative was straight down Main under the triple overpass then a right on Industrial and jog back up to Stemmons/the Trade Mart. Industrial is a warehouse area, maybe not seedy (maybe so in spots in later years) but not appealing with few spectators most probably. BTW it turns in to Irving Blvd, the route LHO and Fraizer took in on 11/22/63. It’s also the route my mother and grandmother took me with them to shop at a railroad salvage warehouse on it in the 60’s.
      My point is, anybody that knew the speech would be at the trade mart knew the route would go down Elm in front of the TSBD. I’ve read Connaly was adamant about the trade mart, at one point virtually throwing a fit over it (on behalf of his mentor LBJ?). The women’s building, preferred by the Secret Service as more easily secured, held about 4000 compared to about 1500 at the trade mart. I.E. giving more people to hear JFK on this “kickoff” to the 64 campaign.
      The real point to me is why as an identifiable potential “hot” point on the route to any security planners was Dealy Plaza not just not secured but totally unsecured?

      • leslie sharp says:

        Ronnie,
        “If they didn’t take the route they did the alternative was straight down Main under the triple overpass then a right on Industrial and jog back up to Stemmons/the Trade Mart.”

        It wasn’t a simple jog back up to Stemmons. It was cumbersome and everyone knew that it was. The issue is that the lunch would be held at the Trade Mart, and en route the motorcade would swing past 411 Elm.

        “Industrial is a warehouse area, maybe not seedy (maybe so in spots in later years) but not appealing with few spectators most probably.”

        Before the development of the West End, the area to the north and slightly west of the TSBD was pure industrial; in fact – if Oswald was a lone assassin why didn’t he escape out the back and hide in the brush or the abandoned or vacant buildings to the north until sundown.

        “My point is, anybody that knew the speech would be at the trade mart knew the route would go down Elm in front of the TSBD.”

        I doubt that. Few average citizens would have paid attention to the issue of direct access to the Trade Mart from Elm. If you are arguing that those interested in murdering the president would have known the route would need to travel in front of Elm to reach the Trade Mart, it seems like a mute point.

        “I’ve read Connaly was adamant about the trade mart, at one point virtually throwing a fit over it (on behalf of his mentor LBJ?).”

        LBJ did not drive the Dallas / MIC economy; on the contrary, the reality was the opposite. Johnson, in spite of the conflicts within the Democratic Party. was generally and politically enmeshed with among others the very business and civic leaders that planned the parade route. If you listen to KRLD Barker’s appraisal while he awaited confirmation of Kennedy’s death, he speaks to that divide including the issue of Yarborough and who would be seated at the head table. Who at jfkfacts knows enough about the dynamics involved to argue them credibly?

        “The women’s building, preferred by the Secret Service as more easily secured, held about 4000 compared to about 1500 at the trade mart. I.E. giving more people to hear JFK on this “kickoff” to the 64 campaign.”

        As suggested earlier, for purely psychological reasons (read Ron Kornbluth’s comment on another thread) the Women’s Building introduced a dynamic that those opposed to Kennedy’s reelection were not prepared to advance.

        “The real point to me is why as an identifiable potential “hot” point on the route to any security planners was Dealy Plaza not just not secured but totally unsecured?”

        And therein lies the crux of the matter doesn’t it? Someone responsible for the security of the president either dropped the ball or was complicit in his assassination. Why didn’t Rowley make this trip?

        • Dan says:

          One of the buildings overlooking Dealey Plaza was the County Criminal Courts Building that contained the Dallas County Sheriff’s Office. According to the Secret Service after action report, in Tampa earlier in the week of the assassination the local Sheriff’s office provided men with rifles to secure tall buildings and overpasses. Obviously this was not done in Dallas.

        • Ronnie Wayne says:

          Leslie, I realize it was not a simple jog back up to Stemmons. That’s what I was getting at. It was time consuming with little exposure to potential voters.
          Your right. Few average citizens would have paid attention to the route going down Elm. But I think knowledge that it would pass the TSBD was a very important point to anyone planning the assassination.
          Further, I think we agree on one of the reasons for choosing the Trade Mart over the Women’s Building. The Dallas right wing elite in power wanted to show off their more Presidential Trade Mart and limit access to themselves, in turn keeping out the “riff-raff” who might actually vote for JFK.
          I sill wonder about what you mentioned of the reaction of those at the Trade Mart to the news of the shooting.

  30. leslie sharp says:

    Ronnie, I thought I had followed up re. the demeanor of the luncheon guests awaiting Kennedy’s arrival. What strikes me in the footage is the relative calm for almost 30 minutes; many people remain seated at the long dining tables at least until Erik Jonsson, President of the Dallas Citizens Council (and CEO of Texas Instruments) takes the podium to very quietly announce that the president has been shot. He does appear to be upset, and makes a brief reference to Pearl Harbor. Eddie Barker says there are expressions of shock and dismay on peoples faces, but I do not see anyone visibly shaken except for one of the banquet captains; Even after the announcement that the president is dead, people seem to begin quietly leaving the banquet hall, no open emotion or angst that I can see. Barker’s voice does begin to quiver, and he sounds out of breath when he announces that Kennedy is dead (about 20 minutes into the clip.) I find it to be very unsettling footage.

    “But I think knowledge that it would pass the TSBD was a very important point to anyone planning the assassination.”

    This from the Warren Report acknowledges a “local host committee” had been consulted about the motorcade route. Why is it so difficult to nail down who sat in on those meetings.

    “No member of the Secret Service, the Dallas Police Department, or the local host committee who was consulted felt that any other route would be preferable.” WR; Chpt 6, Investigation of Possible Conspiracy, Selection of Motorcade Route.

  31. Bill Pierce says:

    Long thread; obsessive minutiae. Does anyone believe that Antonio Veciana saw Philips and Oswald together? I do. If Philips was one of Oswald’s handlers, he could have alerted a small hit & run team that Oswald had a job at the TSBD. Or,conceivably, Philips might have been ignorant of such an ‘operation’. Perhaps he told the ‘wrong person’ at JM/WAVE that their FPCC guy was languishing at TSBD and needed another assignment. Why make it so complicated? [Occam’s razor.]

    • leslie sharp says:

      Bill, it is only complicated if you are convinced Phillips was Bishop, that he met Oswald, that Veciana is accurate, and that the decision to murder Kennedy was made by disgruntled CIA agents and Cuban freedom fighters.

      This cabal could not have single handedly covered up their conspiracy, full stop.

      Your argument also insists that the final plan was initiated on November 19th, the day the parade route was published; or are you suggesting that someone was on the inside advising or affecting the decision of the motorcade route? Begins to get complicated.

      The purpose of this minutiae was initially to deconstruct the myths surrounding how the Paines were introduced to the Oswalds, and where George deMohrenschildt fit into the scenario; those people have been subjects of intense scrutiny but the facts have yet to lead to who had the power to authorize, who had the command to execute, and who had the influence to cover up the conspiracy. Occams does not apply, and that is the genius of the operation. Think of it as a vast barber shop.

      • “This cabal could not have single handedly covered up their conspiracy, full stop.”~leslie sharp

        Which again leads full circle to Johnson, Dulles and Hoover, who did have the capacity to cover-up. And that should be the “full stop”, as far as citizen inquiry is concerned.
        \\][//

        • leslie sharp says:

          Willy, I agree, but would Phillips et al take orders from Johnson? Dulles perhaps; Hoover probably not. Was Phillips ready to take the hit for any of them unless they were able to assure him there would be a successful cover up? That was my point with Bill Pierce … Phillips might have been executioner, but he nor the Cubans did not authorize the assassination, and they didn’t cover it up. Ergo Occams simply does not apply, it never has. I believe we are back to the compartmentalization of the conspiracy, an aspect few are willing to consider openly because of the grave implications. Civil Wars have broken out over less. Perhaps that was of greater concern to Johnson or Hoover – not that war with the Soviets would ensue but that the American people, peasants with pitchforks would rise up.

          • “Perhaps that was of greater concern to Johnson or Hoover – not that war with the Soviets would ensue but that the American people, peasants with pitchforks would rise up.”`Leslie Sharp

            Exactly Leslie, and take out the monsters that killed Kennedy and the hope for peace he had given them. If the “peasants” had discovered it was a military coup, there is some chance that there would have been such rebellion – one that is still over due in my estimation.

            I am not advocating armed rebellion in either instance; but simply a total abandonment of allegiance to the warmongering state, through cognition and civil refusal to go along to get along anymore.
            \\][//

        • H.P. Albarelli Jr. says:

          In a word, speculation; in two: wild speculation.

          • leslie sharp says:

            HP Albarelli. Can you explain exactly what separates this wild speculation from the inflammatory speculation that we might have gone to war because American citizens would leap to the conclusion that the Soviets had attacked our democracy?

            Wasn’t the flaming of that speculation the alleged reason that Johnson, with Hoover’s support, moved immediately to name a commission – to assure US citizens they would hold us safe from Soviet invasion?

            And consider the alternate, purely wild speculation that Kennedy was murdered in retaliation for attempts on Castro’s life?

            How exactly do you assign hierarchy to speculation?

            What frightens you about the possibility that citizens of this democracy might have revolted had they had time to seriously consider the possibility that our country had undergone a military industrial coup d’etat?

      • Bill Pierce says:

        Leslie writes:
        “Begins to get complicated.”

        That’s amusing.

        Little more than the rifle links Oswald to JFK’s murder. That’s why CE399 is so important. Oswald could’ve been employed almost anywhere and the ‘planted’ rifle would have linked him, at least indirectly, to the crime. If Oswald had a rock-solid alibi, perhaps there was a back-up plan to blame Hidell, Oswald’s ‘partner’.

        What’s more plausible . . . an enormous, impossibly complex conspiracy that involved Ruth Paine coordinating with the CIA, Governor Connally and thousands of others (all scripted in advance, with perfect precision) . . . or a small hit & run that took advantage of an opportunity and was prepared to improvise as needed?

        Read Fonzi’s account of an assassination plot against Castro in Chile, 1972 (I think).

        • leslie sharp says:

          “Little more than the rifle links Oswald to JFK’s murder. That’s why CE399 is so important. Oswald could’ve been employed almost anywhere and the ‘planted’ rifle would have linked him, at least indirectly, to the crime. If Oswald had a rock-solid alibi, perhaps there was a back-up plan to blame Hidell, Oswald’s ‘partner’.”

          There are far too many gaps in your simplistic version of events; is it any wonder that Lone Assassin proponents find the holes and burrow deep. How can the phrase “perhaps there was a back up” be taken seriously? That in itself suggests you do not have answers to all the questions but have chosen to follow some razor sharp path to ….. where? For starters, you take no risk to Name who actually authorized the assassination nor can you identify who orchestrated a five decade old cover up.

          “What’s more plausible . . . an enormous, impossibly complex conspiracy that involved Ruth Paine coordinating with the CIA,”

          My point exactly; Ruth only had to be introduced to the Oswalds and that introduction was facilitated by Glover. Given her background she would be trained to react to situations – circumstances that required no decision making – with very little direction. This is not as complicated as you are making it out to be.

          “Governor Connally . . . ”
          is a non starter. No one has suggested he was anything other than a politician caught in the crosshairs in every sense of the word.

          “and thousands of others (all scripted in advance, with perfect precision)”

          Have you ever worked in theater or stage productions? Compartmentalization does not require that everyone be handed the full script. No one is suggesting thousands except when you consider the outer circle that by virtue of their hatred of Kennedy did not take to the streets.

          ” . . . or a small hit & run that took advantage of an opportunity and was prepared to improvise as needed?”

          Your argument plays directly into the lone assassination argument with just a slight tweak here and there. Phillips as Bishop, Veciana’s claims, Cubans who hated Kennedy, and voila, an assassination takes place in broad daylight on an American street and is covered up for Five Plus Decades.

          “Read Fonzi’s account of an assassination plot against Castro in Chile, 1972 (I think).”

          Pls don’t insult me by inferring I have not read Gaeton Fonzi’s work. From what I have read of him, he would respect anyone who pushed beyond what he had uncovered if that meant the truth might finally will out. If you have the answer Bill, why is there still a discussion?

  32. Mittymo says:

    Why would Oswald move from Ft. Worth where he was employed as a welder (making good money) to Dallas where he got a minimum wage job in a book depository?

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

In seeking to expand the range of informed debate about the events of 1963 and its aftermath, JFKFacts.org welcomes comments that are factual, engaging, and civil. more