Comment of the week

Ronnie Wayne – December 28

Melba Christine Marcades, aka Rose Cheramie was found dead on the road in Big Sandy Texas in front of the property of Dallas billionare H L Hunt’ top security officer. Her head had been run over but a bullet wound in it was also found in her head.
Blood was found on the property.
After the JFK assassination her story of being on a drug run to Houston was checked out by the Louisiana State Police and U.S. Customs and found to be true.
See Hit List by Richard Belzer, pgs. 47-52.

 

Editor’s note:
An image of Marcades’s death certificate.:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K3X5-R3F
aka Rose Cheramie

623 comments

  1. “These are some serious guys!”~Melba Christine Marcades aka Rose Cheramie
    as told to authorities in Eunice, Louisiana.

    She told these authorities that she had been thrown from a moving car by a group of men who were on their way to Dallas to kill President Kennedy, who was indeed murdered their some 48 hours later.

    As noted by Tom above; “she was found dead on the road in Big Sandy Texas in front of the property of Dallas billionare H L Hunt’ top security officer. Her head had been run over but a bullet wound in it was also found in her head. Blood was found on the property.”
    \\][//

    • Tom S. says:

      To be clear, Willy, Ronnie Wayne is quoting Richard Beltzer’s book. Beltzer is quoting :

      http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/cheramie.txt
      …..Finally, it should be noted that Cheramie’s hospital
      records state that in addition to her other injuries, she had suffered a
      “deep punctate stellate wound above her right forehead.” 23

      23) J Gary Shaw, “Case Closed” or Posner’s Pompous & Presumtuous
      Postulations, Dateline Dallas, Nov 1993 pp. 12.

      As far as I have determined, and I would appreciate reading a comment from a better informed submitter,
      J Gary Shaw has never furnished any evidence supporting his 1993 description of the contents of hospital records describing a head wound similar to a bullet wound.

      All I could present was an image of Marcades’s death certificate. I chose this topic because I wonder what either “community” requires in the way of actual evidence to base assumptions on.

      What impresses Jfkfacts.org commenters? Why? How is your approach to this research similar or different from buying an expensive item
      on Ebay or Craigslist, or a home or a used car?

      • Tom

        I was actually quoting from CROSSFIRE by Jim Marrs.
        Of course there are certainly better sources to be had these days. I have discovered myself walking back on quite a few things Marrs had said earlier.

        As to the Death Certificate. Do we know if there was an actual autopsy of this woman? Was her head wound dissected, or just viewed in a rudimentary way?

        If anyone has further information, I would love to read about it.
        \\][//

        • Tom S. says:

          “Autopsy performed” box on right lower middle of death cert. image is checked “yes”.

          http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/cheramie.txt
          RAMBLING ROSE
          by Chris Mills* 22 August, 1996

          ….Punctate stellate wound

          The cause of death was “Traumatic head wound with subdural &
          subarachnoid & Petechial Hemorrage to the brain caused by being struck
          by auto”.20 There was an autopsy performed but, unfortunately, the
          hospital is now unable to locate these records……

          http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/11282003/
          Thursday, September 9, 1965
          Woman Lying On Highway Fatally Hurt An unusual accident on Highway 155 took the life o: a Duncanville woman and increased the traffic death total for Upshur County to 18 so far this year, 16 oi them on rural highways, and two inside the Gilmer city limits. Latest victim was identified as Melba Christine Youngblood, 41, who was fatally injured when struck by a car as she was lying on Highway 155 at the roadside park one and one-half miles north of Big Sandy. A sister made the identification and told officers she had called her the night before to say she was going to hitch hike to New Orleans and had a ride with three sailors. The woman was struck by a car driven by Jerry Don Moore, 23, of Tyler. He was driving on Highway 155 about 2:15 a.m. Saturday when the accident occurred. Moore said he saw some luggage on the highway and that as he dodged it he ran over her where she was lying in the road. He was absolved of any blame in the accident. Moore picked the woman up and took her to Hawkins to a doctor. An ambulance was called and she was transferred to a Gladewater hospital where she died about 10:30 Saturday morning. She never regained consciousness after she was brought to the hospital. She carried no identification other than the letters found in her luggage.

          • leslie sharp says:

            “Moore picked the woman up and took her to Hawkins to a doctor. An ambulance was called and she was transferred to a Gladewater hospital where she died about 10:30 Saturday morning.”

            This is a strange report. Why was Melba Youngblood Macardes found dead on Texas State Highway 155, a few miles north of US Route 80 (and even further off of I-20) if she was hitch hiking to New Orleans? TX Highway 155 was a north/south artery so either she wandered off course, or she encountered a situation yet to be revealed and was dead when Moore ran over her body, or Moore is lying, or ….?

            So Moore took Melba Youngblood Macardes from where he hit/found her on 155 North and traveled back south on 155 and then west on US 80 to Hawkins that had a population of 1,300 where Melba was then transported back east to Gladewater where she was pronounced dead. These things happen under crisis and in rural communities. But in retrospect, one has to ask why didn’t Moore take her straight to Gladewater where the population of 5,000+ could support a more competent medical team. It was only 10 miles east of Big Sandy on US Route 80, instead of the significantly smaller community of Hawkins in the opposite direction. The news report suggests Moore knew a doctor in Hawkins.

            of possible interest to those who might grasp the nuance: “Hawkins: Conservative monitors Mel and Norma Gabler launched their CRITIQUE OF PUBLIC SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS (emphasis mine) from their kitchen table in Hawkins in 1961 before moving to Longview.”

            Also from the news article:

            “She [Melba Macardes] carried no identification other than the letters found in her luggage.”

            Has anyone pursued those letters as a matter of interest?

          • Well . . . you have done quite a good job of showing that the only source for the notion she was shot is J. Gary Shaw. And neither he nor anybody else has produced a document to support his assertions.

            If anybody knows how to contact Shaw, they should do so, and press him for the source of his claim.

          • Ronnie Wayne says:

            So there was an autopsy done per the check mark on the death certificate. But there is no autopsy report available? Why?

      • Not about her death per se but with information about her, is the following:

        http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1212#relPageId=201

        And Dave Reitzes is critical of the notion that she knew anything about a JFK conspiracy:

        http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100cher.html

        • David Regan says:

          Well, if Dave Reitzes say it’s so, then it must be true. Was he not once in the camp that had LBJ as the prime suspect behind the assassination?

          Rose Cherami https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Rose_Cherami.html

          • Reitzes essays are well-cited. If you don’t want to take his word, go check out the cites.

            In this Internet era, you can very frequently do that my merely clicking through.

        • I find the information at the site offered by David Regan to be much stronger than the opinions of Dave Reitzes, which have no substantive citations.

          “Dr. Victor Weiss, who treated Cherami, told Jim Garrison’s investigators in 1967 that he had heard Rose’s predictions about the Kennedy assassination. In his testimony to the HSCA Dr. Weiss was clear that he had heard this before Kennedy’s assassination, though the >>initial 1967 contact report<< notes that “Dr. Weiss states that he doesn’t recall whether this was told to him before or after the assassination.”

          Dr. Victor Weiss' testimony at the Garrison trial under oath, and his testimony before HSCA are clear. The "contact report" is orbiter dicta, and not applicable.
          \\][//

          • David Regan says:

            Appreciate the kind words, Willy.

            It’s also worth noting the Will Fritz showed no interest when contacted by Colonel Morgan of the Louisana State Police to tell him about Cherami’s prediction of the assassination and the confirmed parts of her story. By that time, Oswald was dead. According to Fruge, Morgan told the group after speaking to Fritz, “They don’t want her. They’re not interested.”
            –Fruge Interview, pp 4-5, HSCA, April 7, 1978

      • Somebody gave me a 2006 phone number for Gary Shaw.

        I’m not inclined to try calling it, since he might be hostile to me. And I don’t know it’s still working.

        But I’ll share it with any reputable researcher who might want to call him and ask him if he can produce evidence of the “punctate stellate” wound.

      • Ronnie Wayne says:

        I’m old fashioned Tom. I’ve never bought anything off e-bay or craig’s list. I use the internet to look for used cars and read about the JFK assassination as well as books, and an occasional trip back to Dealy Plaza.

      • Ronnie Wayne says:

        Tom, I have never equated the Assassination to buying a used car. Maybe I’m naive in some respects but I take the subject seriously.

    • Ronnie Wayne says:

      Willy, one of the men identified later as throwing her from the car in Louisiana, before her statement they were on their way to kill JFK two days later was later identified as Sergio Aracha Smith, by the bar owner they stopped at before she was thrown out. “Smith” was previously the head of a Anti Castro group but deposed for mis use of funds.

      http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKarcacha.htm

      • Ronnie Wayne says:

        He was also deposed by Jim Garrison to testify at the Clay Shaw/Bertrand trial in New Orleans but extradition was refused by Texas Governor John Connally.

    • lysias says:

      Oliver Stone’s JFK has her say, “These are serious fuckin’ guys!” Sounds more authentic.

  2. leslie sharp says:

    Ronnie, can you maybe decipher from this abbreviated history of I20 and 80 whether or not the men who are alleged to have dumped Melba Christine Youngblood Marcades chose a ‘backroad’ – that just happened to pass in front of the property of Paul Rothermel where they left her for dead – instead of taking I20, or could they have made a conscious decision to leave I20 which was the faster route into Dallas? A quick glance at this wiki entry doesn’t confirm whether or not I20 was open that far east of Dallas in ’64 so 80 may have been the logical route. Otherwise, (if I’m processing this correctly) they were near the Rothermel property deliberately.

    My recollection is that HL Hunt had a fishing/hunting retreat at Big Sandy. (disclosure: I think I’ve shared that I worked for the family in the 1980’s.)

    I’m sure you know that there are several significant military contractors left over from WWI and active in the Cold War within a hundred mile radius of Big Sandy.

    from Wiki:
    History[edit]
    Spur 557 was designated in 1987 on an old alignment of I-20 when it was rerouted southeast of Dallas.[1] I-20 was originally designated over the route in 1959.[2]

    Route description[edit]
    Spur 557 is a short freeway connector between I-20 and US 80 west of Terrell. It begins at the eastern end of the freeway segment of US 80 and heads towards the southeast. US 80 continues to the east as a surface road to Terrell. Spur 557 has one exit at FM 148 between its two termini. The spur merges with eastbound traffic at its eastern terminus at I-20.[3]

  3. Ronnie Wayne says:

    Yes Tom, some of my info comes from Hit List. What you fail to elaborate on is, pg. 51, Gary Shaw.. Conspiracy of Silence…”deep punctuate stellate wound above her right forehead.” … according to medical textbooks…result of a contact gunshot wound. when a gun is fired in contact with the flesh, the resultant gasses trapped between a layer of skin and the underlying bone, can cause a bursting, tearing effect on the surrounding skin tissue leaving a star shaped wound. (Puncuate stellate means a star shaped Puncture).”

    • Ronnie Wayne says:

      I.E, she was shot in the head before she was thrown into the (edge) of the road.

    • Photon says:

      There is absolutely no evidence for a ” punctuate stellate wound” outside of claims from Conspiracy authors. Even with the claim, CTers automatically jump to the conclusion that a ” punctuate stellate wound” must mean that she was shot in the head. If the death certificate makes no mention of a gunshot wound and an autopsy was performed there was no gunshot wound to the head.Period.
      The rambling claims of a mental patient ( previously committed) that on close examination were incompletely documented in the first place are hardly evidence for knowledge of a conspiracy.Why don’t CTers look at the stuff she made up after seeing a newspaper article on the shooting of Oswald? Nobody mentions her claim of Ruby’s nickname of ” Pinky”- which NONE of Ruby’s associates had ever heard of. What about her claim of Oswald being Ruby’s gay lover? Jeanne Dixon supposedly predicted JFK’s death. Why haven’t CTers brought her into the conspiracy.
      For anybody to use Belzer’s rehash of Conspiracy factoids and proven errors as a source is a joke.

    • ”deep punctuate stellate wound above her right forehead.”~Ronnie Wayne

      Is this on the death certificate under the stamp or something? I would agree that this is indeed an indication of a gunshot wound with the barrel pressed against the head. IF it is in the official record.
      I cannot read the entire passage in the photocopy above, the stamp over part of it might be covering that part of the sentence. [???]
      \\][//

      • Tom S. says:

        The ink stamps appear to obscure only the inked areas on the certificate
        from the raised, inked areas of the stamps. Would not a bullet wound
        have been emphasized in the cause of death description and if present, influenced a murder or attempted suicide investigation? I cited Chris Miller’s 1996 article crediting J. Gary Shaw as the source of the stellate wound description, cited from review of hospital records. There is no claim by Miller that Shaw saw a C.O.D. description displayed on the death
        certificate more detailed than what we can see in the image. I got the D.C. image from ancestry.com, but it is available to download at the link
        I included above the image, (free registration required at familysearch.org for image view and download access.)

        Marcades Death Certificate - cause of death img crp

        • I put this image in my photo viewer and blew it up. But the [OCT 11 | 1963] stamp obscures whatever words might be behind it.

          Can anyone else here read it???
          \\][//

          • Tom S. says:

            Willy,
            The other D.C. image and the close up crop were of a screen shot I then cropped in MS paint.
            Here is a link to the original file from familysearch.org, it has better resolution.:
            https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0NbMnkoN5_4/VoSTTqDwNAI/AAAAAAAACWA/iiJksQVNYr0/s512-Ic42/record-image_33S7-9YBP-X5M.jpg

            Here is a link to an image of a Texas 1965 D.C. of a gunshot wound death. (Or is it 1964 and faked to read, “1965”?):
            http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-A_c-mkpofhc/U78gIQ8Jg2I/AAAAAAAA1w8/O7jE0bmvC9k/s3000/Edward-Benavidez-Death-Certificate.jpg

          • Thanks Tom,
            But I still do not see; “deep punctuate stellate wound” on Charamie’s death certificate.

            Ronny??????
            \\][//

          • Photon says:

            Because it is not there. It was made up by a conspiracy author.

          • “Because it is not there.”~Photon

            Perhaps, perhaps not Mr Lightbeam, the conversation here has just begun.
            \\][//

          • Ronnie Wayne says:

            Willy, I don’t have “Conspiracy of Silence” 1992, Dr. Crenshaw/J Gary Shaw. Shaw in this book is the reference in Hit List. I do have the updated version of the book, “Trauma Room One” from 2001. It has no name index. I found nothing about Marcades/Cheraime just thumbing through it.
            Hit List also references a quote from (ultimately) “The Assassinations” DiEugenio/Pease. “According to researcher J Gary Shaw in the book Conspiracy of Silence the official autopsy of Cheramie has disappeared. But in the records he did find…”she had suffered a deep punctuate stellate wound above her right forehead (Dateline Dallas, Nov. 1993).”
            Hit List also references an e-mail to the author (Belzer or Wayne) from Dr. Walt Brown, PhD-History Notre Dame, author “Treachery in Dallas’, “The Warren Omission”. In it he relates DPD officer/JFK researcher Jay Harrison. He got an original certified blue copy of the death certificate…Melba was run over, but the bullet wound in the forehead were obvious and the blood stains were on the property.”
            Shaw’s name rang a bell for me. He ran the Assassination Research Center in the West End of Dallas off Dealy Plaza with Larry Howard for years (I still have a bumper sticker from there). I’d like to read his book “Cover Up” from 1976, reprinted in 1992. But it start’s at $125.00 on Amazon.
            I’ve seen Dr. Browns work referenced by reputable authors/researchers. I started to read “Treachery in Dallas” out of a library just a few months ago. In the preface it said LHO acted alone and the CIA had nothing to do with the assassination. It laid there until it was overdue and I took it back.

          • Photon says:

            The only mention of a “stellate puncture wound ” that may be credible is a report that Cyril Wecht may have seen the mental patient’s medical record. That note was that Wecht thought that she had a stellate laceration and DID NOT have any evidence of a gunshot wound to the head.If Wecht says she didn’t have a gunshot wound to the head, she didn’t have a gunshot wound to the head.
            This whole narrative is nothing but CT fantasy.

          • He got an original certified blue copy of the death certificate…Melba was run over, but the bullet wound in the forehead were obvious and the blood stains were on the property.”

            OK, so the death certificate posted above is yet another one of those faked documents, eh?

          • I’d like to read his book “Cover Up” from 1976, reprinted in 1992. But it start’s at $125.00 on Amazon.

            Interlibrary Loan at any major library should be able to get a copy you could check out for a week or two.

          • Tom S. says:

            Here is another version. Source – jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Cheramie%20Rose/Item%2008.pdf

            In 2014, Gary Shaw gave two talks in his Texas hometown on his assassination research.
            http://www.cleburnetimesreview.com/news/local_news/local-historian-to-discuss-jfk-assassination-on-sunday/article_09a999b8-0b30-543d-9ba3-1d2ccae35a1d.html

            http://www.cleburnetimesreview.com/news/local_news/shaw-details-cleburne-links-to-jfk-assassination/article_9849d02f-3b99-5157-b57f-466e0d9d72ad.html

            Since Gary seems the only source of the bullet wound to the skull claim, if you are impressed with this claim contrary to the Marcades death certificate description, contact Gary and ask if there is supporting evidence other than taking Gary Shaw at his word.

          • Ronnie Wayne says:

            Thanks for the links Tom S. The second one is great. “any attempt to tell us what to think about anything, especially the killing of the president, without looking at the evidence, it’s not worth listening to”.
            I never knew he met Ruby as a Du-wop band member. I’d like to know his current comments on the punctuate stellate wound too.

          • But in the records he did find…”she had suffered a deep punctuate stellate wound above her right forehead (Dateline Dallas, Nov. 1993).”

            And we know that how?

            Where are those records?

            Serious researchers provide the primary sources.

            He got an original certified blue copy of the death certificate…Melba was run over, but the bullet wound in the forehead were obvious and the blood stains were on the property.”

            But Tom posted the death certificate, and it shows no such thing.

          • Ronnie Wayne says:

            If Melba was drunk, stoned or just tired and laid down on the edge of a rural Texas road next to her luggage, that’s unusual. I’ve driven a lot of them and never seen anything like that. I guess I’m just naturally suspicious. There’s not enough information available to conclude either way on foul play. Things like the missing supposedly performed autopsy raise my suspicion.
            Once again, her suspicious death is not the most important aspect relating to the JFK assassination. Her documented prediction of it two days before is Irrefutable Evidence of advance knowledge, thus a Conspiracy.
            The sad part of the death is it was one of too many. Too close together.
            Hit List doesn’t cover them all or any of them in the depth they should be.
            From Ruby to Oswald and JFK, in between and after they don’t add up. Too Many, Too Soon. The odds are astronomical.

            Read the details in this book:

            http://www.amazon.com/Reclaiming-Science-Conspiracy-mathematical-disinformation/dp/1502715996/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1452219013&sr=1-1&keywords=reclaiming+science

          • Tom S. says:

            After Melba was dead, is it not a sad thing that a number of books have been published describing her
            being found shot in the forehead at point blank range, or words to that effect, yet no one can produce
            a primary source for that description more compelling than something J Gary Shaw published almost 25 years
            ago?
            Are you satisfied Melba ever actually met or was familiar with Jack Ruby? Why?

          • Ronnie Wayne says:

            Tom S. I would have liked to have heard her sons comments I’ve read about elsewhere that he made at one of the conferences this last November 22. Regarding knowing Ruby, yes. I think. Didn’t she refer to Ruby to the nurses before he shot Oswald? Larry Hancok gives the best coverage I know of in Some Would Have Talked. Pg. 375 he says “it remains unclear”.

  4. Ronnie Wayne says:

    From quote of the week to quote of the week as mine came from last weeks. My post about Rose Cheramie was ultimately in response to a McAdams reply that “most intimidated and eliminated witnesses are bogus”. It was part of a discussion at least in part relating to the value of information of a questionable nature. Except for JFK being assassinated and Ruby killing Oswald just about everything relating to the case is questionable.
    I think the questionable deaths are still important at least as a background or framework relating to the big picture. Taken collectively, with the odds of their happening, which have been studied extensively, they add to the likelihood of a coordinated cover up.
    I know Roger Craig was taking prescribed pain and I believe other medicine and mixing them with alcohol when he committed suicide. Some of what he said is questionable, like many others. This doesn’t mean everything he said is worthless.
    Penn Jones, who I didn’t bring up, was a character. Forgive My Grief is rambling, much doesn’t relate to the assassination but bit’s and pieces are relevant. Though I never put much stock in the shot from the gutter. He did encourage other researchers.
    Jim Marrs Crossfire was a turning point for me. From the mafia did it in the early 80’s to maybe there was another aspect. I think the revised edition is still a good starting point for those new to the subject. Richard Randolph Carr is a conundrum for me. I’ve gone to the “sniper’s nest” and looked toward the building he was working on and gone to that building and looked toward the TSBD. The old jail is in the way, even accounting for the elevation he was at. Why did he stick by his story if he was harassed out of Dallas, someone tried to blow up his car in Wyoming or wherever, he killed a man in Florida who attacked him or no reason (he was cleared immediately, self defense)?
    I’ve yet to read a book on JFK’s murder that didn’t make me question something in it.
    Regarding Hit List by Belzer and Wayne I did come across this on pg. 74. (quote from edu forum, 1/2009)

    “And JFK researcher Tom Scully thoughtfully observed:

    “Too many who approached Jack Ruby;s role in an inquisitive way… Kupcinet, through his daughter Karyn, Killagen, and the 11/24/63 “guests” of George Senator at Jack Ruby’s apartment, Hunter, Kothe, and Howard…met a soon and untimely death.”

    • Yes the Dorothy Kilgallen case is most fascinating, and in my view most compelling as far as evidence for her murder is concerned.

      See:
      Who Killed Dorothy Kilgallen?
      By Alex Constantine

      A chemist reporting to Dr. Charles Umberger at the New York City Medical Examiner’s office discovered that
      reporter Dorothy Kilgallen had been murdered – and was told to keep the chemical analysis under wraps – in
      1978. The chemist ran an analysis of the glass Kilgallen had been drinking from when she died.
      The tests turned up traces of Nembutol on the glass. But Nembutol was not found in her blood. The blood tests
      turned up a lethal cocktail of drugs, three from the fastest-acting groups of barbituates:
      secobarbitol, amobarbital and pentobarbital.

      http://911review.org/Alex/Kilgallen_murdered.html

      \\][//

      • How somebody might have slipped into her apartment and forced pills down her throat with “no trauma” and “no signs violence” (according to the autopsy report) is something that conspiracy people need to explain.

        Especially with her husband and son asleep in other rooms of the house.

        http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/death4.htm

        They also might explain how she was any threat to the supposed conspiracy. For all her talk about “breaking the case,” the stuff she published was just the usual conspiracy stuff that was going ’round. It was mostly fed to her by Mark Lane.

        http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/kilgallen.txt

        • “How somebody might have slipped into her apartment and forced pills down her throat with “no trauma” and “no signs violence” (according to the autopsy report) is something that conspiracy people need to explain.”
          ~McAdams

          No we don’t. There are many ways to pull off something like that. Something dissolved in a drink. Or delivered by syringe to her heel or somewhere else inconspicuous on her body. Ether on a rag means no struggle.

          And you don’t have any idea of what Kilgallen might have had found out. What we do know is that she told close associates that it would blow the case wide open.

          As you say in your spin piece, the amount of alcohol and barbiturates should not have been enough to kill her. Maybe something else did, like smothered by a pillow over her face while she was out from ether.

          It is your OPINION it is not a mysterious death, nothing more.
          \\][//

          • the amount of alcohol and barbiturates should not have been enough to kill her.

            But the combination was enough.

            There are many ways to pull off something like that. Something dissolved in a drink. Or delivered by syringe to her heel or somewhere else inconspicuous on her body. Ether on a rag means no struggle.

            But the toxicology turned up only barbiturates and alcohol.

            And how did the goons get into her apartment without leaving evidence of forced entry?

            It is your OPINION it is not a mysterious death, nothing more.

            It was the professional opinion of the Medical Examiner. But what to those folks matter, compared to buff hobbyists.

      • Photon says:

        How can you believe anything from Alex Constantine? His conspiracy site is so full of errors and outright lies as to be comical.

        • Photon,

          How can you believe anything from the Warren Commission Report? It is so full of errors and outright lies as to be an outright fraud perpetrated on the American people.
          \\][//

          • Photon says:

            Can you list three provable lies that are not simply conclusions in conflict with your own?
            In an 889 page report supported by 26 volumes of evidence there are bound to be some errors, usually minor.
            The remarkable thing is how few there are. Three other government investigations supported the Warren conclusion that Oswald killed JFK. Even the HSCA conclusion of another shooter based on a recording proven to have been made after the assassination took place states that Oswald’s shots were the only ones to have hit JFK.

          • J.D. says:

            The Warren Report does not mention that JFK was thrown backwards by the kill shot, which amounts to lying by omission. The Report also claims that the Single Bullet Theory isn’t a necessary prerequisite for the conclusion that Oswald did all of the shooting, which is wrong. Finally, the Report states that “not more than two minutes had elapsed since the shooting” when Baker encountered Oswald inside the building, which is both wrong and misleading — it was about 90 seconds. Those are the first three that came to mind, and they’re all major.

  5. Ray Mitcham says:

    The best suggestion is to only let people post under their own names. This would get rid of our Doctor/Lawyer/Ballistics expert, cum everything else- Dr Lightnbeam.

    IMO he doesn’t exist as a person but is a department in Langley.

    • Tom S. says:

      Ray,
      Be careful what you wish for. Didn’t Snowden give enough pause to the formerly unaware? The ODC are surveillance states.

      http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/16/newsweek.quran/index.html
      May 16, 2005…(In the “one, two, three, what are we fighting for?” question category)….Rumsfeld told reporters. “People need to be very careful about what they say just as people need to be careful about what they do.”…

      Does that real name restriction preclude a reasonable person posting comments on a name and time logged comments format
      from his employer’s computer, or from his own device, but on his employer’s time? Would you want some of your posts on
      the forum’s you’ve posted on, to be part of an employment background check “folder”?

      How is Ashton Gray working out over at the Ed Forum? Did his name just “slip through” the real name restriction?:
      http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/comment-of-the-week-10/#comment-844273

  6. Bogman says:

    Let me just say that I think this site does an invaluable service in clarifying issues surrounding the Kennedy assassination and providing food for thought or additional areas of study. Just from the posts in this thread I learned for the first time that Joannides’ supervisor wrote the memo about discrediting the FPCC in a foreign country. The CIA never told the Feds about Joannides so no one could make that connection until 40 years after the assassination.

    It’s difficult for me to understsnd how any objective observer doesn’t notice the connection between the timeline and personnel used to discredit the FPCC by the FBI and CIA and Oswald’s activities in NO and MC. Case not even close to being closed.

    • leslie sharp says:

      Bogman, I agree. These are the dark corners that were locked or overshadowed by the intense scrutiny of the ‘obvious’ when in fact a CIA within the CIA, most likely answering to unelected interests, has almost skulked out the back door with the silver. The following is one profound revelation that sums up my own intuition that I’ve pursued for years and converted to ‘a strong and plausible theory’ comes from Larry Hancock and repeated in David Talbot’s “The Devil’s Chessboard” related specifically to Union Tank Car but emblematic of a deeper network. But first, an important consideration related to context and Union Tank:

      Prior to becoming the head of Rockefeller’s Union Tank Car, Edwin Allen Locke, Jr. served as a Chase bank official in Paris and London and during WWII he held positions in the Office of Coordinator of Purchase, served on the advisory committee to Council of National Defense and the Supply Priorities and Allocation Board, was the asst. to chairman of the War Production Board, a special assistant to the President, a special representative to Sec. State, Ambassador in Charge of US Mission to the Near East. Locke was also the Chairman of the Executive Committee of the National Military-Industrial Conference and a member of the American Security Council.

      Note: In 1960, DCI Allen Dulles proposed that anti-communism be taught in US schools and colleges; he was invited to speak before the Military-Industrial Conference on the topic. (see letter from Director of the CIA Dulles to Dr. Frank Barnett of the Richardson Foundation culminating in an invitation to speak at the MI Conference in 1961.)

      http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/files/document_conversions/5829/CIA-RDP80R01731R000400520003-2.pdf

      Picking up from Hancock/Talbot (and hats off to Jim diEugenio for an excellent review of Talbot’s new book):

      “When [a legal representative of Union Tank Car, Sierra Martinez] came to the USA he first lived in Miami, but he then moved to Chicago. He became a legal consul for Union Tank Car Company, founded by the Rockefellers. He then became a major figure among the exiles. A month after his meeting with Dulles (the third man at the meeting was General Lucius Clay [retired having served with Asst. Sec. of War John Jay McCloy WWII]), Sierra Martinez convened a conference at the Royalton Hotel in Miami. This was a crucial moment since, after the Missile Crisis, Kennedy made it clear that he was not going to have the CIA back the exiles anywhere near the extent they had done previously. With Kennedy’s stricture in place, Sierra arrived in Miami like a gift from the gods. He said he NOW REPRESENTED A CONSORTIUM OF LARGE CORPORATIONS who wanted to recover their lost investments in Cuba. (ibid) . . .

      (continued)

      • leslie sharp says:

        (cont.)

        . . . He [Sierra Martinez of Union Tank Car] told the audience that his backers were willing to put up 30 million if they could reorganize and launch a new invasion of the island. Although this invasion would not have approval from the top, it WOULD BE BACKED BY OFFICERS IN THE MILITARY would be backed by officers in the military. They would provide weapons and training facilities.

        Note: Ret. General Clay who met with Martinez and Dulles was chairman of Continental Can Corp at the time (AND ON THE BOARD OF AMERICAN EXPRESS), with offices at 100 East 42nd; The Richardson Foundation was located less than a two minute walk at 122 East 42nd; Exec. Director of the foundation, Dr. Frank Barnett, was contacted by Director of Central Intelligence Allen Dulles recommending that courses warning against the dangers of communism be introduced in US schools and colleges.

        Picking up again from Hancock/Talbot:

        After this conference, Sierra then traveled around the country spreading around money in hopes of forming a working coalition, which he called the Junta of the Government of Cuba in Exile. (ibid, p. 460) The source of his money, which was passed through Union Tank Car, was ill defined. Some reports suggested that some of the cash came though organized crime sources. In an interview with this reviewer, Larry Hancock said that the Mob money appeared to originate with Meyer Lansky. Lansky made tons of money for the Chicago Outfit through his interest in The Flamingo in Las Vegas. As Talbot points out, this is interesting because one of the plots against Kennedy in the fall of 1963 originated in Chicago. But further, after the failure of the Chicago plot, Sierra was negotiating an arms deal for one Homer Echevarria. This was in the days leading up to the successful Dallas murder. The day before JFK was killed, Echevarria supposedly said to an informant that his group—a part of Sierra’s umbrella junta—now had the money to mount a major Cuban operation since they had some Jewish money. (Lansky was Jewish.) And they would do so as soon as they took care of Kennedy. (Reuters dispatch of 12/20/95) Which sounds a bit like the troubling words used by the Polish priest with Scott.
        How does a former judo instructor from Miami rise to the near top of the exile community? And with reputed backing from large corporations and the Chicago mob, in just a matter of months? Most objective people would think that the lunch with Dulles had something to do with it. And let us not forget, as Talbot noted, years earlier, Dulles had tried to get Lansky to do away with Castro.

        • leslie sharp says:

          100 East 42nd Street – HQ of Lucius Clay’s Continental Can – was also the headquarters of NV Philips USA, a Netherlands-based manufacturing concern that allowed (or consciously fronted) Frenchy Grombach’s WWII semi-private clandestine intelligence operations alleged to have shut down in the mid 1950’s. As far as I know Grombach’s THE POND has yet to be scrutinized in a public forum; perhaps jfkfacts is an appropriate venue in the future.

          • Tom S. says:

            I would not be so sure of that. I’ve participated in such scrutiny.
            http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=12780&hl=grombach
            and http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2544&p=274620

            In the posts at the two links above, details about “the Pond” posted by researcher Jim Root. Root linked Whitney Shepardson and OSS Stockholm with “the Pond”. Billy Lord’s 1977 letter to Jimmy Carter and details Lord described in resulting FBI interview. Lord claimed Henry Hurt described a Bemiss who headed republican party in the state of VA and owned a string of hotels, a description of Fitzgerald Bemiss. Bemiss’s sister Cynthia married Sandy Stuart and Shepardson’s son John was best man.: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5142&p=206374
            OSS Stockholm was headed by George E. Brewer, Jr.*, father of the wife of Priscilla’s CIA first cousin, David. Priscilla told HSCA one of several excuses for Marina & Lee’s thirteen year delay was her father’s concealed suicide.
            Osborne Elliott was de Borchgrave’s best man in 1959.:

            *(appointed by OSS Col. Ellery C. Huntington http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a241173.pdf pg. 53)

            http://www.georgetowner.com/articles/2015/feb/17/legendary-newsman-arnaud-de-borchgrave-dies-88/
            ..By 1951, de Borchgrave was head of the Paris bureau for Newsweek in Paris and later hired his successor, Ben Bradlee, who would go to become executive editor of the Washington Post.

            Elliott and de Borchgrave were two of Hugh Aynesworth’s most prominent employers.

            Eleanor Thomas Elliott, Barnard Figure, Dies at 80 – New …
            http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/06/nyregion/06elliott.html?_r=0
            Dec 6, 2006 – An advocate for women’s rights, Eleanor Thomas Elliott successfully … a car accident, said her brother-in-law, Osborn Elliott, …

            Eleanor was described as a cousin and maid of honor in Allen Dulles’s daughter Clover’s wedding. Eleanor’s brother James A. Thomas, Jr. of Locust Valley, LI, was the last person to see Priscilla’s father Stuart alive and reported him missing to police.

            http://archive.is/esTuB
            Secrets of Newsweek’s Osborn Elliott & Hugh Aynesworth, & of Priscilla Johnson

            Sisterhood of Spies – The New York Times
            https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mcintosh-sisterhood.html
            …in January 1942, forty-eight-year old Ellery C. Huntington Jr. hoped for an overseas assignment, possibly behind enemy lines.
            From 1933, Huntington, Jr. was a co-trustee of Equity Corp. with David Milton. Huntington, Jr. retired as Equity Corp. Chairman in 1958…..

            http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a241173.pdf pg. 53
            A SPECIAL FORCE: ORIGIN AND DEVELOPMENT
            OF THE JEDBURGH PROJECT
            IN SUPPORT OF OPERATION OVERLORD

            Page 53
            ….1943, Huntington went to England to further negotiate SO
            London’s relationship with SOE. The Americans were
            interested in becoming more active in the conduct of special
            operations, and were fearful of becoming nothing more than a
            support base for SOE. Huntington al-o wanted to establish
            SO’s relationship to ETOUSA, now that OSS was under the
            direction of the JCS. From the handful of officers who
            accompanied Huntington to England, he designated Major
            George E. Brewer, Jr., to be Chief Operations Officer and
            Executive Officer. Pending assignment of a new permanent
            branch chief for SO London, Huntington also appointed Brewer
            acting chief of the branch, replacing Colonel Guenther.

            continued….

          • Tom S. says:

            (continued from Secrets of Newsweek’s Osborn Elliott &…..)

            http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C0CE0DF143FE33BBC4851DFB4678389659EDE
            Dec 20, 1942
            19 — The marriage of Miss Effie Leighton Brewer, daughter of Major George Emerson Brewer, US.., …to David Coit Davenport, son of Mrs. 1VfcHarg Davenport of Santa Fe, 1….Owing to the absence of her father, who is serving overseas, the bride was and Eunice Johnson…cousin of the bridegroom.

            In autumn, 1964, David Coit Davenport snapped this photo.:
            http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/author-85-knew-jfk-killer-oswald-article-1.1525293
            Marina Oswald (left), widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, with friend Jerre Hastings (center) and Priscilla Johnson McMillan. McMillan befriended Oswald after the assassination of JFK.

            OSS: The Secret History of America’s First Central …
            https://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=ssl&ei=vXKLVtL3OovT-AWc7Z_YBg#q=tikander+george+brewer
            Richard Smith – 2005…..

            The Devil’s Doctor: Felix Kersten and the Secret Plot to … – Page 133
            https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=hooper+brewer+tikander#hl=en&tbm=bks&q=hopper+brewer+tikander
            John H. Waller – 2002
            Dr. Bruce Hopper had been replaced by his deputy, Wilho Tikander. In addition, a new Special Operations team had been created, headed by George Brewer, a former Yale professor

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Finance_Corporation#Investigation_and_scandal
            World Finance Corporation
            ….The bank was involved with a number of prominent Floridians, such as Walter Sterling Surrey, a stockholder in, director of, and lawyer for, WFC Corp. Kwitny recounts,

            Surrey says he came aboard mainly to help start a foreign-based mutual fund for an old client, a Cuban exile who helped found World Finance. He says he dropped out in 1976 when the mutual fund deal fell through, and that he was unaware of any criminal or intelligence activities of the company.[2]
            ….There were also allegations that 8 of the 12 bank directors were either current or former CIA employees, and that then-CIA director William J. Casey (coincidentally, a Roman Catholic) apparently stymied the investigation for reasons of “national security”. And so the two-year investigation ended in the conviction of Cartaya in 1982 for nothing more than tax evasion….

            Interlock: Art, Conspiracy, and the Shadow Worlds of Mark …
            https://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=ssl&ei=-HOLVuWtF4uK-gX3nrqYBQ#q=world+finance+%22one+of+six+founding+directors%22+surrey
            Patricia Goldstone – 2015 – ‎History
            fact, World Finance Corporation came into being as a result of a further amendment in … One of the six founding directors of World Finance Corporation was lawyer and “old China hand” Walter Sterling Surrey,

            The Secret war report of the OSS – Page 303
            https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=hooper+brewer+tikander#hl=en&tbm=bks&q=%22*There%2C+too%2C+was+Taylor+Cole%2C+a+political+science+professor+at+Duke+University%2C+and+Walter+Surrey.+%22
            Anthony Cave Brown – 1976 ‎The chief of operations at Stockholm was Wilho Tikander, …Taylor Cole, a political science professor…, and Walter Surrey…..

            http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/02/obituaries/david-a-morse-83-ex-chief-of-international-labor-organization.html
            David A. Morse, 83, Ex-Chief of International Labor Organization
            December 2, 1990
            ….He then formed a law partnership in New York City, Surrey & Morse, which was later merged into the law firm Jones, Day, Reavis & Pogue….

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1989/02/01/obituaries/ac7fed90-f821-49d8-92ce-6d97aac4a567/
            WALTER STERLING SURREY Lawyer Walter Sterling Surrey, 73, a senior partner at the Washington law firm of Jones, Day, Reavis & Pogue ….Economic Warfare Section of the American legation in Stockholm….

          • leslie sharp says:

            TomS, a quick glance – meaning a specific word search – I don’t see that anyone has pursued The Pond in earnest. The information in those threads is superficial and readily accessible. Maybe Jeff will see fit to introduce the topic sometime.

          • leslie sharp says:

            Tks, Tom. A lot to digest. I haven’t followed the Stokholm angle so this is very interesting. I followed McCargar’s role with The Pond because he was in Eastern Europe with Al Ulmer. His story is fascinating … his file was ’empty’ when it came time to retire; no medals, no honorary citations, as if he didn’t exist when in fact he was involved in numerous operations including spiriting a key European figure out of Hungary. He also crossed paths with Polgar who went on to serve in Saigon, the last man out. Polgar served with Lucien Truscott (born in Abilene); a colourful military figure who was involved with PBSucess so when Dulles left him out of planning the BOP he was insulted and furious. (He had relatives in Amarillo.) All this by way of speculating that The Pond cast a wider net than perhaps has been disclosed, completely unofficial status but loyal servants nonetheless. It’s alleged to have shut down in the early ’50’s. Grombach’s choice of front operations in another comment.

        • bogman says:

          Thanks, Leslie. I remember reading about the anti-Castro group that was getting “Jewish money” and would move forward once JFK was killed. I never knew it led back to Dulles.

          I think the “CIA within the CIA” working with certain corporate interests to get the assassination done makes a lot of sense.

  7. Ronnie Wayne says:

    As this thread is based in part on Hit List, and a John McAdams post on a thread discussing the ultimately the death’s of Kothe and Hunter…

    I guess the suspicion in the death of Lee Bowers has been thoroughly discredited. Just from (a fallible) memory. His death was investigated by a personal friend, a Texas Department of Safety Officer, trained in such investigations. He found paint marks on the left side of Bowers car indicating it had been run off the road. He also interviewed a witness that saw the “accident” in their rear view mirror and concluded it was not an accident. I don’t recall an accident report being available nor a name for the witness.

    • Ronnie Wayne says:

      I need help here. I read somewhere years ago that Texas Department of Safety Officer Good, investigating the death a day afterward, independently, went to the junkyard where the vehicle was towed and observed a paint mark and/or crease on the left side. I can not remember where I saw this, I have looked. Consider it heresy, might have been a Penn jones article.
      Any help appreciated.

      • Ronnie Wayne says:

        Time is telling. Interest is waning. The death of Lee Bowers is not just suspicious to me, it is quite so. Combined with his Warren Omission, cut off testimony regarding what he saw included by Ball, and his later recorded interview with Mark Lane, his death by possibly being run off the road four months after the interview raises questions. Not all of them are settled. His questioning by Ball is a story in itself.
        That it is no longer of interest is telling about the amount of information “out there”. It is overwhelming.
        I take the word of a Texas Department of Public Safety Officer, who was a friend of the deceased and investigated it personally. The Texas DPS is widely enough renowned within the State as not part of local Governments, maybe not totally incorruptible but respected for their integrity. Not to say there are plenty of exceptions.
        I can only find two references to Officer Charles Good. Those of Penn Jones and Dave Perry. Jones, at the time said Good concluded Bowers was run off the road. Perry concludes otherwise, many years later.
        A flawed analysis IMO.

  8. leslie sharp says:

    “The right wing in Dallas had no more to do with Oswald than those European Brownshirts had to do with you. As in your case, his politics were quite different from theirs.” — Jean Davison

    Your attempt to twist the argument is humorous; you know full well I’m not asserting that Oswald shared ideologies with the right wing in Dallas.

    We should probably establish a definition of “right wing” in Dallas. If you are suggesting that DH Byrd and Jack Charles Cason were middle of the road conservatives then you clearly know nothing of the culture in the city at the time. Byrd with his Civil Air Patrol and Cason, a staunch member of the American Legion whose founding member in the US was Alvin Owsley, Dallas city father married into the Ball Corporation family of Indiana, home of the Legion. If you are suggesting that Clint Murchison, gambling buddy of John Birch Society funder HL Hunt and whose board included Byrd, was middle of the road conservative you would be mistaken. Those are but several examples of “right wing” in Dallas. Now, how do they tie in with Oswald’s position as “Patsy” at 411 Elm? I’ll let you figure that out. It bears repeating that these characters primed the perfect scene of the crime.

    The error in your analogy is that I was in a position to walk away; was Oswald?

  9. Russ Tarby says:

    BTW, Leslie…
    in his HSCA deposition taken in May 1978 some 14 years after his WC testimony, Meyers admitted that he had been trying to make time with Joy Dale by writing that check:
    “My intentions, of course, were strictly ulterior at [the] time as far as she was concerned. Let’s face it, I was just trying to make points. As I said before, I was much younger then.”

  10. Photon says:

    Or maybe the whole DIA story is simply a figment of somebody’s imagination
    This is just like Harold Hill’s claim of being from Gary, Indiana before the town was even founded.
    Instead of trying to make an impossible story plausible, wouldn’t it be simply easier to admit that it is false statement not worthy of further consideration?

    • Tom S. says:

      Photon,
      Who are you asking? Ed Butler’s son(s) supplied the DIA description for inclusion in Butler’s obit, or
      it is sourced from details available to the obituary writer of the New Orleans newspaper. I research and
      present, preferably from primary sources. Joannides’s activities with the Oswald’s radio debate opponent
      include details aggressively guarded by CIA for fifty years. Morley’s attorney was unable to obtain cooperation of the court in determining if CIA’s decision to unretire Joannides and offer him up to HSCA
      as a helpful guide without also offering any inkling of Joannides’s links to DRE is at the heart of this
      question of the depth of Butler’s actual CIA affiliation. You make it plain you have no curiousity about
      this particular controversy, yet it is reasonable to believe Joannides was unretired to “help” the HSCA treat the dust up resulting in the radio debate, and all persons related to the dust up, the radio debate, and who accounted for those events, except Oswald, as unremarkable and unworthy of further scrutiny.

  11. Bogman says:

    One added note as a study in contrast:

    Somehow a likely CIA asset kept the tapes of a nobody malcontent on a radio show in NO 3 mos before the assassination, but the tapes of this traitorous defector speaking with KGB in the Russian embassy are lost forever?

    • Somehow a likely CIA asset

      BZZZZZ! Nobody has produced any evidence of his being a CIA asset.

      kept the tapes of a nobody malcontent on a radio show in NO 3 mos before the assassination, but the tapes of this traitorous defector speaking with KGB in the Russian embassy are lost forever?

      Because MEXI intercepted a lot of message traffic with their phone taps, and would have quickly run out of storage space had they not reduced the taps to transcriptions.

      From the standpoint of the New Orleans DRE, Oswald was not a “nobody.” He was a dangerous Communist. That was overwrought, but that’s what they believed.

      • Bogman says:

        Don’t know where I saw it, it may have been in Morley’s book, but the CIA did copy key passages to another tape before re-using the original.

        Also, as someone told Gaeton Fonzi about the “broken” camera — “We’re the CIA. We had other cameras.”

  12. Perhaps a general discussion on the current Amerikan Kakistocracy might be productive here. The topic does transcend The 1963 coup d’tat, but also puts it in a larger context.
    \\][//

    • It should be understood and appreciated that the terms “Counter Insurgency” & “Counter Revolutionary” – when spoken by the Criminal Syndicate squatting in DC, actually refers to ‘The Revolution’, the American Revolution began by the Declaration of Independence in 1776.
      Those who cannot grasp this remain unaware of the true agenda of the current regime ruling the so-called “Western World”.
      \\][//

  13. America Embraces The Tyranny Its Founders Fought To Reject

    “The founding generation believed equity – justice according to natural law or right – bound and limited all political power. Government served a limited purpose, as Thomas Jefferson put it in the Declaration of Independence, “to secure these rights,” life, liberty and property. It followed that the people establishing government retained the right and authority to maintain it within those limits. Government was not supreme; it was merely an agent of the people. Written constitutions served a limiting purpose. They provide the “political bible” Paine referred to, specifically circumscribing the scope of governmental power. As Paine put it:

    “A constitution is not the act of a government, but of a people constituting a government; and government without a constitution, is power without a right.”

    Within this philosophical framework, a sovereign government institution such as Parliament is fundamentally tyrannical.

    Even a casual look at American governance today reveals a system having much more in common with the 18th century British model than the one the founding generation forged nearly 250 years ago. America operates under a “living breathing” constitution with the U.S. Supreme Court taking on the role of sovereign.”~Mike Maharrey

    http://www.activistpost.com/2016/01/america-embraces-the-tyranny-its-founders-fought-to-reject.html?
    \\][//

  14. Ronnie Wayne says:

    Jeff and Tom. The recent domination of the site by a half dozen posters or less is detrimental to it. IMHO. Maybe we should be limited to two-three-four posts per day. Just food for thought.

  15. leslie sharp says:

    (cont.)
    FENSTERWALD: You Don’t think they are going to be very enthusiastic about really going into any of this?

    GAUDET: I don’t think Mr. ROCKEFELLER is going to be . . . No . . .

    FENSTERWALD: You can’t think that Mr. Belin is, who is his staff director, because he was one of the Counsel on the Warren Commission . . .

    GAUDET: HA … HA … HA … HA …

    FENSTERWALD: The same people keep showing up. It’s a bit strange, isn’t it?

    GAUDET: Well, why should Mr. ROCKEFELLER be the one to take . . . I don’t understand ROCKEFELLER being given the job of investigation the CIA . . . I mean . . .

    FENSTERWALD: I don’t either . . .

    GAUDET: I mean . . . My God! Anybody with a . . . either GERALD FORD is the stupidest man in the United States or he doesn’t know anything about NELSON ROCKEFELLER . . .

    STONE: What would seem very plausible . . . does it?

    FENSTERWALD: Or he doesn’t want it investigated . . .

    GAUDET: I mean, if he doesn’t want it investigated, I can’t think of a better man to have named . . .

  16. The point in countering propaganda is not to change the propagandist’s mind, but to lay his techniques and dissembling bare to a candid world.
    \\][//

  17. Photon says:

    Well Willy, you seemed to have a problem reading the HMS physics requirement .

    • “Well Willy, you seemed to have a problem reading the HMS physics requirement”~Photon

      No Photon, you have a hard time noting the alternative prerequisites that can fulfill that requirement.
      \\][//

  18. It is, to the discerning mind, a conundrum as to whether Photon, Jean, and McAdams are truly as naive as they put on, or whether it is a form of burlesque, a cabaret of trite distraction.

    It seems to me that the most rational conclusion would be the latter. These dialogues do seem to cycle like used plastic containers, spoiling the true taste of the Schnapps

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